English subtitles for clip: File:Mike Tulley Interview - October 6 2010.ogv
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1 00:00:00,959 --> 00:00:03,432 >> INTERVIEWER: Okay, this is Mike Tulley. 2 00:00:04,000 --> 00:00:07,113 >> MIKE: Hi, hi I'm Mike Tulley. 3 00:00:12,049 --> 00:00:16,259 >> INTERVIEWER: Briefly describe your family background, education, upbringing, et cetera. 4 00:00:16,259 --> 00:00:17,680 >> MIKE: I was born 5 00:00:17,680 --> 00:00:24,269 in the U.S. military hospital, in the U.S. canal zone in Ancón 6 00:00:24,269 --> 00:00:25,529 which was, uh, 7 00:00:25,529 --> 00:00:29,749 mostly a military and, and, U.S. worker barracks town 8 00:00:29,749 --> 00:00:32,249 near Balboa, Panama. 9 00:00:32,249 --> 00:00:34,620 Uh... That was in 1948. 10 00:00:34,620 --> 00:00:37,819 Uh... We left there when I was only a few months old. 11 00:00:37,819 --> 00:00:40,080 Moved up to, 12 00:00:40,080 --> 00:00:44,180 uh, Washington state, eastern Washington state, where my father worked 13 00:00:44,180 --> 00:00:46,430 on a dam construction project. 14 00:00:46,430 --> 00:00:52,270 And, my mother was raising me, some sheep, and some chickens on a little farm. 15 00:00:52,270 --> 00:00:54,260 She received a telegram... 16 00:00:54,260 --> 00:00:56,460 Back then you received those on paper. 17 00:00:56,460 --> 00:01:01,000 And uh... uh, asking if my father Patrick 18 00:01:01,000 --> 00:01:02,650 wanted a job 19 00:01:02,650 --> 00:01:07,010 on some U.S. foreign aid Marshal Plan 20 00:01:07,010 --> 00:01:10,140 construction project in Germany. 21 00:01:10,140 --> 00:01:14,950 Uh... So my mother immediately answered yes to the telegram, sent back a message 22 00:01:14,950 --> 00:01:17,050 that same night... 23 00:01:17,050 --> 00:01:21,010 signing my father's name to it, accepting the job on his behalf 24 00:01:21,010 --> 00:01:23,290 Uh... Sold the farm 25 00:01:23,290 --> 00:01:27,270 sold the sheep, sold the chickens, and by the time my father got home from his 26 00:01:27,270 --> 00:01:29,080 shift a few hours later 27 00:01:29,080 --> 00:01:30,870 uh... she was packing. 28 00:01:30,870 --> 00:01:32,549 [Laughs aloud] 29 00:01:32,549 --> 00:01:33,689 Uh... She wasn't 30 00:01:33,689 --> 00:01:36,770 going to stay in another little prairie town that really wasn't much different 31 00:01:36,770 --> 00:01:39,230 from the one she'd grown up in. 32 00:01:39,230 --> 00:01:42,390 They both love telling that story. 33 00:01:42,390 --> 00:01:45,350 We all would have headed off to Germany at that point, except there 34 00:01:45,350 --> 00:01:45,979 wasn't 35 00:01:45,979 --> 00:01:48,570 really any housing for 36 00:01:48,570 --> 00:01:49,300 American 37 00:01:49,300 --> 00:01:51,439 families in Germany. 38 00:01:51,439 --> 00:01:56,480 So, my father headed off to Germany to start the job and my mother and I... 39 00:01:56,480 --> 00:01:58,299 I would have been about... 40 00:01:58,299 --> 00:02:00,430 two years old by this time. 41 00:02:00,430 --> 00:02:03,350 Went off to Italy, uh, too 42 00:02:03,350 --> 00:02:06,370 Livorno or Leghorn as the English call it, 43 00:02:06,370 --> 00:02:08,240 uh, where there was 44 00:02:08,240 --> 00:02:13,279 I guess a U.S. Navy base and my uncle who was in the Navy 45 00:02:13,279 --> 00:02:15,299 was serving at that time. 46 00:02:15,299 --> 00:02:18,639 And we lived with them for a few months until we could rejoin my father 47 00:02:18,639 --> 00:02:19,859 in Germany. 48 00:02:19,859 --> 00:02:22,840 Uh... We lived in Germany for well... 49 00:02:22,840 --> 00:02:27,269 I went to kindergarten there, in a German kindergarten, learned a little bit of German 50 00:02:27,269 --> 00:02:29,419 and then I went to 51 00:02:29,419 --> 00:02:31,510 first and second grade 52 00:02:31,510 --> 00:02:35,489 in a French school for... 53 00:02:35,489 --> 00:02:39,980 I guess we were in the French occupied zone of Germany, as it was known then. 54 00:02:39,980 --> 00:02:42,519 So, I went to a school for 55 00:02:42,519 --> 00:02:48,579 French dependent children and learned French in a hurry as almost no one there spoke English. 56 00:02:48,579 --> 00:02:53,539 That would've been 1956, we moved to Casablanca Morocco 57 00:02:53,539 --> 00:02:58,709 which was a beautiful city and another U.S. foreign aid construction project my 58 00:02:58,709 --> 00:03:00,279 father was working on. 59 00:03:00,279 --> 00:03:04,589 We were only there for about six months before of there was some dispute over 60 00:03:04,589 --> 00:03:08,189 the succession to the throne and uh... 61 00:03:08,189 --> 00:03:12,739 the crown prince and, uh, his uncle or something got into a bit of a 62 00:03:12,739 --> 00:03:16,439 dispute and the Americans were advised to get out in a hurry... 63 00:03:16,439 --> 00:03:19,869 Uh, we left rather quickly I remember uh... 64 00:03:19,869 --> 00:03:25,499 uh... armed men with rifles and burnooses by the side of the road uh... 65 00:03:25,499 --> 00:03:30,409 It was very picturesque, but apparently dangerous and uh... we got out of there 66 00:03:30,409 --> 00:03:33,129 and uh... my father took another job 67 00:03:33,129 --> 00:03:37,309 in Pakistan in Karachi, which was then the capital 68 00:03:37,309 --> 00:03:38,499 A... 69 00:03:38,499 --> 00:03:40,419 A seaport town, 70 00:03:40,419 --> 00:03:45,859 uh, still swollen with refugees from the partition of India and Pakistan. 71 00:03:45,859 --> 00:03:47,449 And we lived there 72 00:03:47,449 --> 00:03:51,349 for a bit over four years, I went to 73 00:03:51,349 --> 00:03:53,409 a school there that was uh... 74 00:03:53,409 --> 00:03:54,620 run for 75 00:03:54,620 --> 00:03:59,629 dependence of American employees. It was not a particularly good school but 76 00:03:59,629 --> 00:04:03,079 it was supposedly part of the American school system 77 00:04:03,079 --> 00:04:04,129 and I 78 00:04:04,129 --> 00:04:06,329 kind of survived the experience. 79 00:04:06,329 --> 00:04:07,269 Uh... 80 00:04:07,269 --> 00:04:09,049 After a few years there 81 00:04:09,049 --> 00:04:11,520 we moved on to 82 00:04:11,520 --> 00:04:13,979 Tehran Iran. 83 00:04:13,979 --> 00:04:15,459 Uh... 84 00:04:15,459 --> 00:04:19,810 Another, uh, another U.S. foreign aid construction project. 85 00:04:19,810 --> 00:04:22,310 And then I, uh... 86 00:04:22,310 --> 00:04:25,340 It was time for me to go to high school and uh... 87 00:04:25,340 --> 00:04:29,310 I came back to the United States and went to a boarding school in Pennsylvania. 88 00:04:29,310 --> 00:04:35,009 This was an American prep school, kind of modelled after the English public schools 89 00:04:35,009 --> 00:04:37,959 in that it was intended to be 90 00:04:37,959 --> 00:04:39,290 a school for the... 91 00:04:39,290 --> 00:04:41,229 the sons of the elite. 92 00:04:41,229 --> 00:04:44,050 And, uh, it carried with it uh... 93 00:04:44,050 --> 00:04:44,800 A lot of 94 00:04:44,800 --> 00:04:46,379 class attitude 95 00:04:46,379 --> 00:04:47,479 baggage 96 00:04:47,479 --> 00:04:48,449 which I 97 00:04:48,449 --> 00:04:50,349 tried to buy into 98 00:04:50,349 --> 00:04:51,159 and 99 00:04:51,159 --> 00:04:53,280 failed. [Laughs] 100 00:04:53,280 --> 00:04:55,840 Uh... I suppose it had been my 101 00:04:55,840 --> 00:04:58,659 parents intention 102 00:04:58,659 --> 00:05:01,629 to make me upwardly class mobile. 103 00:05:01,629 --> 00:05:03,050 Uh, it... 104 00:05:03,050 --> 00:05:07,210 It was a good intention, I suppose on their part, but it didn't really work out. 105 00:05:07,210 --> 00:05:11,840 However, I went there for four years and, uh, did okay academically 106 00:05:11,840 --> 00:05:15,490 and graduated in 1966. 107 00:05:15,490 --> 00:05:16,160 Going... 108 00:05:16,160 --> 00:05:20,690 Then getting into Stanford university intending to do a degree in electrical 109 00:05:20,690 --> 00:05:22,599 engineering. 110 00:05:22,599 --> 00:05:25,739 I choose Stanford because they had 111 00:05:25,739 --> 00:05:30,259 something called the 'freshman seminar programs' in which their most illustrious 112 00:05:30,259 --> 00:05:32,310 senior professors 113 00:05:32,310 --> 00:05:33,290 actually 114 00:05:33,290 --> 00:05:36,389 had small group seminars with 115 00:05:36,389 --> 00:05:38,689 first-year university students. 116 00:05:38,689 --> 00:05:43,779 I got to be in a small group seminar with, uh, professor William Shockley; 117 00:05:43,779 --> 00:05:47,439 Nobel Prize for the invention of the transistor. 118 00:05:47,439 --> 00:05:51,159 I was excited about this. Uh, I was going to get in on the ground floor of, 119 00:05:51,159 --> 00:05:54,350 uh, electrical engineering in the new field of 120 00:05:54,350 --> 00:05:57,629 semiconductor engineering and physics. 121 00:05:57,629 --> 00:05:59,659 Uh... 122 00:05:59,659 --> 00:06:02,669 I did have kind of a good time Stanford, uh, but 123 00:06:02,669 --> 00:06:06,129 unfortunately the freshman seminar didn't work out very well because it 124 00:06:06,129 --> 00:06:10,150 turned out that, uh, Professor Shockley didn't actually want to teach us 125 00:06:10,150 --> 00:06:13,360 anything about solid-state physics 126 00:06:13,360 --> 00:06:14,029 I've 127 00:06:14,029 --> 00:06:14,850 since seen... 128 00:06:14,850 --> 00:06:18,090 Read writers who questioned whether he even knew anything about solid-state 129 00:06:18,090 --> 00:06:22,840 physics. Uh, particularly some of his graduate students who, uh, apparently 130 00:06:22,840 --> 00:06:26,319 did most of the work on the invention of the transistor 131 00:06:26,319 --> 00:06:30,579 But uh, Shockley was really much more interested in teaching us his theories 132 00:06:30,579 --> 00:06:33,279 of education and racial intelligence. 133 00:06:33,279 --> 00:06:37,029 Uh, he was particularly fond of the theory that white people were smarter 134 00:06:37,029 --> 00:06:41,089 than black people and you could prove it using U.S. Army intelligence... 135 00:06:41,089 --> 00:06:42,460 intelligence tests 136 00:06:42,460 --> 00:06:45,610 and Stanford--Binet IQ tests 137 00:06:45,610 --> 00:06:48,409 Uh, I was uh... 138 00:06:48,409 --> 00:06:50,550 Brash, self-righteous, 139 00:06:50,550 --> 00:06:53,450 and determined to tell him, 140 00:06:53,450 --> 00:06:55,599 quite loudly, that he was wrong. 141 00:06:55,599 --> 00:06:56,380 Uh... 142 00:06:56,380 --> 00:07:00,009 This didn't work out very well, and I think I may have been the only freshman at 143 00:07:00,009 --> 00:07:04,590 Stanford ever to fail a freshman seminar. [Laughs] 144 00:07:04,590 --> 00:07:09,240 This discouraged me a bit from electrical engineering um... 145 00:07:09,240 --> 00:07:14,619 and I also noticed that all the graduate students in electrical engineering were... 146 00:07:14,619 --> 00:07:18,059 Tall, thin, pasty faced 147 00:07:18,059 --> 00:07:22,809 pimply young men with their collars buttoned up too tight and large 148 00:07:22,809 --> 00:07:24,620 slide rules hanging on their belts 149 00:07:24,620 --> 00:07:26,319 and a look of, of, 150 00:07:26,319 --> 00:07:27,199 constant 151 00:07:27,199 --> 00:07:29,469 kind of pallid constipation. 152 00:07:29,469 --> 00:07:32,779 It really didn't look like they were having any fun at all. So, I got involved 153 00:07:32,779 --> 00:07:36,300 in things like campus radio 154 00:07:36,300 --> 00:07:41,879 and the anti-draft movement the antiwar movement, uh, 155 00:07:41,879 --> 00:07:48,509 music uh... Uh, some experimentation with drugs, uh, and, uh, discovered 156 00:07:48,509 --> 00:07:51,229 having a social life was a whole lot of fun. 157 00:07:51,229 --> 00:07:53,109 Okay, next question. 158 00:07:53,109 --> 00:07:57,129 >> INTERVIEWER: The military was pretty important in your family then? 159 00:07:57,129 --> 00:07:59,460 >> MIKE: Yes um... My father had 160 00:07:59,460 --> 00:08:04,849 served in the U.S. army during the Second World War as a uh... I think he'd 161 00:08:04,849 --> 00:08:07,130 made it to the rank of captain 162 00:08:07,130 --> 00:08:09,110 because he'd been a civil engineer he'd 163 00:08:09,110 --> 00:08:12,689 gotten a commission, gone in as a second lieutenant 164 00:08:12,689 --> 00:08:15,309 been promoted to captain by the end of the war. 165 00:08:15,309 --> 00:08:22,309 My uncle Howard was the navy man who made it to the rank of commander, 166 00:08:22,489 --> 00:08:24,859 I think. My uncle Dave, 167 00:08:24,859 --> 00:08:26,979 who was my father's oldest brother 168 00:08:26,979 --> 00:08:29,580 was a career Army man 169 00:08:29,580 --> 00:08:31,039 and uh... 170 00:08:31,039 --> 00:08:34,820 again in the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers and... 171 00:08:34,820 --> 00:08:38,080 rose to the rank of major general. 172 00:08:38,080 --> 00:08:39,490 and I have a 173 00:08:39,490 --> 00:08:41,439 great-grandfather 174 00:08:41,439 --> 00:08:43,580 Day 175 00:08:43,580 --> 00:08:44,780 Who was... 176 00:08:44,780 --> 00:08:47,200 I think a one of the youngest 177 00:08:47,200 --> 00:08:48,960 people to serve 178 00:08:48,960 --> 00:08:52,910 in the union army in the U.S. Civil War. 179 00:08:52,910 --> 00:08:55,300 So, the, the family has a long, uh, 180 00:08:55,300 --> 00:08:57,660 a long military history. 181 00:08:57,660 --> 00:09:00,899 >> INTERVIEWER: As you mentioned you were involved in antiwar movements 182 00:09:00,899 --> 00:09:05,720 what attitudes did you and your family members and friends hold towards the Vietnam War? 183 00:09:06,720 --> 00:09:12,730 >> MIKE: Well, my family mostly held the attitude that you did what the government told you to do 184 00:09:12,730 --> 00:09:19,240 Uh... And they may have had their own opinions on whether it was a very, uh, 185 00:09:19,240 --> 00:09:23,510 whether it was a wise idea for the U.S. to get involved in that war or not. 186 00:09:23,510 --> 00:09:26,610 But they mostly took the military attitude that you did what you were 187 00:09:26,610 --> 00:09:28,140 ordered to do. 188 00:09:28,140 --> 00:09:32,320 Uh... Some of them I suppose might have been enthusiastic supporters of it and 189 00:09:32,320 --> 00:09:34,390 others might have thought it was a 190 00:09:34,390 --> 00:09:36,890 stupid war to get involved in but 191 00:09:36,890 --> 00:09:37,890 they weren't... 192 00:09:37,890 --> 00:09:42,290 actively in opposition to it, and so far as I knew I was the only member of my 193 00:09:42,290 --> 00:09:43,500 family 194 00:09:43,500 --> 00:09:47,400 who was. Although, many of them questioned the draft particularly. And there was a 195 00:09:47,400 --> 00:09:51,440 difference between being opposed to the draft and being opposed to the war back then. 196 00:09:51,440 --> 00:09:53,380 But I was... 197 00:09:53,380 --> 00:09:57,080 Eventually, after thinking it through some found that I was opposed both, quite strongly. 198 00:09:57,080 --> 00:09:59,390 >> INTERVIEWER: So where you drafted? 199 00:09:59,390 --> 00:10:02,760 >> MIKE: I was eventually drafted yes uh... 200 00:10:02,760 --> 00:10:04,440 My uh... 201 00:10:04,440 --> 00:10:08,140 My adventures in university only lasted for about a year, 202 00:10:08,140 --> 00:10:09,930 before I realized that I 203 00:10:09,930 --> 00:10:13,899 wasn't quite sure of why I was going to university. I was no longer interested in 204 00:10:13,899 --> 00:10:16,870 getting a degree in electrical engineering, I was 205 00:10:16,870 --> 00:10:21,260 very involved in the anti-draft movement, one of my heroes was the uh... 206 00:10:21,260 --> 00:10:25,640 then president of the Stanford university student council David Harris 207 00:10:25,640 --> 00:10:29,250 and, uh, he had gotten himself uh... 208 00:10:29,250 --> 00:10:34,450 arrested for refusing to be drafted and, uh, gone off to prison. 209 00:10:34,450 --> 00:10:36,880 And, I planed to do the same thing. 210 00:10:36,880 --> 00:10:40,520 So I took a leave of absence from the university, 211 00:10:40,520 --> 00:10:43,660 to figure out when I was doing with my life. 212 00:10:43,660 --> 00:10:46,340 And, uh, immediately... 213 00:10:46,340 --> 00:10:49,810 Got drafted since I no longer had my student deferment. 214 00:10:49,810 --> 00:10:50,869 Um... 215 00:10:50,869 --> 00:10:55,449 I had originally planned refuse to be drafted, but unfortunately at that time 216 00:10:55,449 --> 00:10:58,460 my father had been working 217 00:10:58,460 --> 00:11:02,980 on a dam building project in Oroville California and my parents had settled 218 00:11:02,980 --> 00:11:05,150 down there, finally in the United States. 219 00:11:05,150 --> 00:11:06,770 Bought a house. 220 00:11:06,770 --> 00:11:08,819 And then the 221 00:11:08,819 --> 00:11:11,639 dam building project had ended, 222 00:11:11,639 --> 00:11:14,810 and he had been laid off, and they were having a hard time 223 00:11:14,810 --> 00:11:16,170 paying for the house. 224 00:11:16,170 --> 00:11:17,930 So he took a job 225 00:11:17,930 --> 00:11:21,340 again as a civil engineer working for the U.S. Air Force 226 00:11:21,340 --> 00:11:22,960 in Đà Nẵng Vietnam; 227 00:11:22,960 --> 00:11:27,260 building airports for the American airplanes again. 228 00:11:27,260 --> 00:11:32,390 And I... When I announced my intention to refuse the draft and if necessary go to 229 00:11:32,390 --> 00:11:34,900 prison, uh, I got a 230 00:11:34,900 --> 00:11:37,620 visit from my mother who informed me 231 00:11:37,620 --> 00:11:42,160 that if I did that, then my father would lose his security clearance and 232 00:11:42,160 --> 00:11:43,810 therefore his job 233 00:11:43,810 --> 00:11:47,399 they would lose the house and my younger brother Brian wouldn't get to go to 234 00:11:47,399 --> 00:11:49,110 university. It would just 235 00:11:49,110 --> 00:11:51,830 bring disaster on the whole family. 236 00:11:51,830 --> 00:11:57,980 This put me, put me, in kind of a quandary. Um... So I decided then that I would 237 00:11:57,980 --> 00:12:02,190 allow myself to be drafted but I would look for a non-combatant role because I 238 00:12:02,190 --> 00:12:04,450 really wasn't interested in 239 00:12:04,450 --> 00:12:06,660 killing Vietnamese for Uncle Sam. 240 00:12:06,660 --> 00:12:08,430 So I, uh... 241 00:12:08,430 --> 00:12:09,620 Went ahead, 242 00:12:09,620 --> 00:12:10,600 with some 243 00:12:10,600 --> 00:12:14,160 trepidation, and really no idea of what I was doing. 244 00:12:14,160 --> 00:12:15,480 Got drafted, 245 00:12:15,480 --> 00:12:21,420 And, uh, applied for non-combatant medic status. 246 00:12:21,420 --> 00:12:22,949 Went through... 247 00:12:22,949 --> 00:12:25,070 basic training. 248 00:12:25,070 --> 00:12:28,520 Uh, waited for some time 249 00:12:28,520 --> 00:12:31,690 while my request got processed 250 00:12:31,690 --> 00:12:35,810 all the way up to the Pentagon, and came back down again: refused. 251 00:12:35,810 --> 00:12:37,010 The U.S. Army felt 252 00:12:37,010 --> 00:12:42,290 that I would make a better combat infantryman than medic. 253 00:12:42,290 --> 00:12:43,210 Um... 254 00:12:43,210 --> 00:12:45,860 I then, wasn't quite sure what to do. 255 00:12:45,860 --> 00:12:51,350 So, I went ahead with advanced, went on into the advanced infantry training. 256 00:12:51,350 --> 00:12:54,100 Uh, this was all at Fort Lewis Washington. 257 00:12:54,100 --> 00:12:57,540 Uh, but while I was in advanced infantry training my father 258 00:12:57,540 --> 00:13:01,640 finished up the contract in, uh, Vietnam and came back to the United States 259 00:13:01,640 --> 00:13:04,200 and his job was no longer 260 00:13:04,200 --> 00:13:05,769 conditional on having 261 00:13:05,769 --> 00:13:08,240 a security clearance from the U.S. government. 262 00:13:08,240 --> 00:13:12,360 So, when my advanced infantry training was finished and I got my orders to go 263 00:13:12,360 --> 00:13:13,650 to Vietnam, 264 00:13:13,650 --> 00:13:15,560 I simply packed up, 265 00:13:15,560 --> 00:13:16,800 took my 266 00:13:16,800 --> 00:13:20,530 few days leave that we were given, uh, 267 00:13:20,530 --> 00:13:24,690 in those days before being sent off to the jungles of Vietnam 268 00:13:24,690 --> 00:13:26,510 and went back to Stanford. 269 00:13:26,510 --> 00:13:30,740 Decided to see how much I could get away with before they arrested me. 270 00:13:30,740 --> 00:13:32,040 Uh, there were a lot of 271 00:13:32,040 --> 00:13:33,530 young men 272 00:13:33,530 --> 00:13:37,480 leaving the U.S. army in those days, um... 273 00:13:37,480 --> 00:13:41,910 and they were not really putting a lot of effort into rounding us up. So I went 274 00:13:41,910 --> 00:13:43,760 back to Stanford 275 00:13:43,760 --> 00:13:45,390 Uh... re-enrolled 276 00:13:45,390 --> 00:13:47,830 Uh, continued to but, uh, 277 00:13:47,830 --> 00:13:51,340 my major seemed to be changing, at that point, from electrical engineering to 278 00:13:51,340 --> 00:13:56,470 philosophy. I was taking courses in psychology, comparative religion, 279 00:13:56,470 --> 00:14:00,750 just about anything. I think I still did take 280 00:14:00,750 --> 00:14:04,910 some courses that were part ofthe electrical engineering curriculum, but I was 281 00:14:04,910 --> 00:14:06,730 looking for a new path. 282 00:14:06,730 --> 00:14:10,500 But I was still involved in, uh, student radio 283 00:14:10,500 --> 00:14:14,000 the antiwar movement, and the anti-draft movement. 284 00:14:14,000 --> 00:14:17,640 This continued, uh, for some time until, 285 00:14:17,640 --> 00:14:21,620 uh, one of my friends got arrested at an antiwar demonstration 286 00:14:21,620 --> 00:14:26,549 and he was being interviewed by an FBI agent who was in charge of, 287 00:14:26,549 --> 00:14:28,680 keeping track of us, I guess. 288 00:14:28,680 --> 00:14:32,550 My friend was in the agent's office and the agent got a phone call, and he didn't 289 00:14:32,550 --> 00:14:33,850 care to 290 00:14:33,850 --> 00:14:37,830 talk on the phone in front of my friend. So, he told my friend quite sternly to 291 00:14:37,830 --> 00:14:41,200 stay where he was, and stepped out of the office to take the phone call. 292 00:14:41,200 --> 00:14:44,140 My friend took the opportunity to look through all the papers on the FBI 293 00:14:44,140 --> 00:14:48,950 agent's desk, and found a list of the people this particular agent was 294 00:14:48,950 --> 00:14:51,250 supposed to be keeping track of. 295 00:14:51,250 --> 00:14:56,050 Most of the names were familiar to him, it included me and all of our mutual friends. 296 00:14:56,050 --> 00:14:59,779 They knew where we all lived, what we did, who we hung out with... 297 00:14:59,779 --> 00:15:02,620 Just about everything about us they needed to know. 298 00:15:02,620 --> 00:15:03,610 Um... 299 00:15:03,610 --> 00:15:04,710 When 300 00:15:04,710 --> 00:15:09,730 he was then released by the FBI agent and, uh, came back and told me about 301 00:15:09,730 --> 00:15:10,710 this, 302 00:15:10,710 --> 00:15:15,550 I realized that if I were actually as effective an antiwar and anti-draft 303 00:15:15,550 --> 00:15:17,020 organizer as I 304 00:15:17,020 --> 00:15:18,800 fancied myself to be, 305 00:15:18,800 --> 00:15:20,450 they would have just pulled me in, 306 00:15:20,450 --> 00:15:23,320 if I was really doing any good for the cause. 307 00:15:23,320 --> 00:15:26,180 They would have handed me back to the Army who would've uh... 308 00:15:26,180 --> 00:15:30,550 either sent me off to Vietnam or thrown me in, uh, a military prison for 309 00:15:30,550 --> 00:15:31,940 Uh... 310 00:15:31,940 --> 00:15:33,420 for being AWOL or 311 00:15:33,420 --> 00:15:36,300 one after the other. 312 00:15:36,300 --> 00:15:39,910 So, I came to the conclusion that I wasn't really doing much good by staying in 313 00:15:39,910 --> 00:15:44,320 California, and if I started to do any good they'd simply pick me up. 314 00:15:44,320 --> 00:15:48,950 So uh, my friends got together and bought me a plane ticket to Canada. 315 00:15:48,950 --> 00:15:53,770 Uh, at that time my only contact in Canada was uh... 316 00:15:53,770 --> 00:15:57,180 Uh, a good friend couple of years older who'd, uh, graduated from 317 00:15:57,180 --> 00:16:01,220 Stanford and was now up teaching at the University of Alberta, 318 00:16:01,220 --> 00:16:04,840 and who had let me know that if I ever needed to come up to Canada, I would be 319 00:16:04,840 --> 00:16:06,690 welcome to stay at his place. 320 00:16:06,690 --> 00:16:08,200 So I uh... 321 00:16:08,200 --> 00:16:14,190 Entered Canada, uh, as a tourist and went to visit my friend Bill in Edmonton. 322 00:16:14,190 --> 00:16:18,169 >> INTERVIEWER: Aside from the fact that you knew that they could get you at any-time they wanted, 323 00:16:18,169 --> 00:16:21,270 was anything else that made you want to desert? 324 00:16:21,270 --> 00:16:24,270 >> MIKE: Well, that was what made me decide to leave 325 00:16:24,270 --> 00:16:26,159 the U.S. and come to Canada. 326 00:16:26,159 --> 00:16:28,230 My desertion was 327 00:16:28,230 --> 00:16:29,470 Um... 328 00:16:29,470 --> 00:16:31,870 Partly on... 329 00:16:31,870 --> 00:16:35,230 Mostly on moral grounds, that 330 00:16:35,230 --> 00:16:38,390 I didn't want to go killing people 331 00:16:38,390 --> 00:16:43,270 for the political purposes of the U.S. government. I didn't think it was a war 332 00:16:43,270 --> 00:16:45,950 the United States should have been involved in. 333 00:16:45,950 --> 00:16:47,680 It had to do with 334 00:16:47,680 --> 00:16:49,639 who was going to govern 335 00:16:49,639 --> 00:16:51,280 South Vietnam. 336 00:16:51,280 --> 00:16:54,480 The uh... Whether the people were to be allowed to have an election or their 337 00:16:54,480 --> 00:16:58,160 government was going to be forced on them by the U.S. 338 00:16:58,160 --> 00:17:00,560 And I certainly didn't think it 339 00:17:00,560 --> 00:17:03,880 would be right for me to go kill people to enforce the U.S. government's foreign 340 00:17:03,880 --> 00:17:06,660 policy there. 341 00:17:06,660 --> 00:17:09,930 The war itself seemed futile, 342 00:17:09,930 --> 00:17:13,700 since I thought that sooner or later the Vietnamese would probably 343 00:17:13,700 --> 00:17:15,790 get to decide their own fate. 344 00:17:15,790 --> 00:17:20,920 Uh... it was certainly killing a lot of Vietnamese and a lot of Americans. 345 00:17:20,920 --> 00:17:24,860 I wasn't sure I particularly supported 346 00:17:24,860 --> 00:17:30,320 the, the, Viet Cong or the North Vietnamese, or any other faction there. 347 00:17:30,320 --> 00:17:32,600 But I just didn't think it was 348 00:17:32,600 --> 00:17:36,770 the business of the United States, or me personally, to go try to tell them what 349 00:17:36,770 --> 00:17:39,770 kind of government they should have. 350 00:17:39,770 --> 00:17:40,920 Uh, that was... 351 00:17:40,920 --> 00:17:44,470 That was my main opposition to the war, that and just a general opposition to 352 00:17:44,470 --> 00:17:45,390 wars, 353 00:17:45,390 --> 00:17:49,260 as not the right solution to any problem. 354 00:17:49,260 --> 00:17:52,000 >> INTERVIEWER: What was it like living as a deserter in Canada? 355 00:17:52,000 --> 00:17:54,150 Was it what you expected? 356 00:17:54,150 --> 00:17:58,400 >> MIKE: Uh, living as a deserter in Canada was... 357 00:17:58,400 --> 00:18:01,679 Much better than living as a deserter in the United States, and it 358 00:18:01,679 --> 00:18:04,620 didn't take me long to figure that out. 359 00:18:04,620 --> 00:18:08,570 I can remember, I had been in Edmonton for a few weeks... 360 00:18:08,570 --> 00:18:13,410 I arrived here on April 1st, 1970. 361 00:18:13,410 --> 00:18:16,530 Uh, I came up on the train from Calgary. I had 362 00:18:16,530 --> 00:18:21,480 flown to Vancouver and then taken the train from Vancouver to Calgary and then 363 00:18:21,480 --> 00:18:23,460 from Calgary to Edmonton. 364 00:18:23,460 --> 00:18:25,250 And uh... 365 00:18:25,250 --> 00:18:26,300 Um... 366 00:18:26,300 --> 00:18:28,920 Was relaxing at a.. 367 00:18:28,920 --> 00:18:31,860 At the house so some new friend's one evening, 368 00:18:31,860 --> 00:18:34,190 and suddenly realised 369 00:18:34,190 --> 00:18:35,770 that I could simply 370 00:18:35,770 --> 00:18:37,909 go out for a walk 371 00:18:37,909 --> 00:18:39,620 and 372 00:18:39,620 --> 00:18:43,120 there was, there was, no risk attached to going for a walk 373 00:18:43,120 --> 00:18:44,540 in the neighborhood 374 00:18:44,540 --> 00:18:46,120 at ten o'clock at night. 375 00:18:46,120 --> 00:18:48,460 The police would not harass me. 376 00:18:48,460 --> 00:18:53,640 Uh, there was not the polarization, the conflict, 377 00:18:53,640 --> 00:18:55,679 the racial conflict, 378 00:18:55,679 --> 00:19:00,350 uh, the political polarization. 379 00:19:00,350 --> 00:19:01,150 Or the... 380 00:19:01,150 --> 00:19:05,100 The police harassment I would have experienced in the United States. 381 00:19:05,100 --> 00:19:07,039 Uh, nobody... 382 00:19:07,039 --> 00:19:10,710 If anyone cared at all that I was a deserter, they 383 00:19:10,710 --> 00:19:12,279 thought that was good. 384 00:19:12,279 --> 00:19:14,799 But mostly they didn't care. 385 00:19:14,799 --> 00:19:18,020 And that was fine with me. 386 00:19:18,020 --> 00:19:21,679 >> INTERVIEWER: What was the hardest part of having to come to Canada? 387 00:19:21,679 --> 00:19:24,900 >> MIKE: The hardest part of coming to Canada? 388 00:19:24,900 --> 00:19:30,600 Uh... Being separated from my family. I would have liked to have visited more often, 389 00:19:30,600 --> 00:19:33,210 but I wasn't sure about 390 00:19:33,210 --> 00:19:37,450 getting across the border. So, I didn't cross that U.S. border 391 00:19:37,450 --> 00:19:40,410 for many years until I had 392 00:19:40,410 --> 00:19:45,230 my Canadian citizenship and at a time when the U.S. wasn't particularly 393 00:19:45,230 --> 00:19:47,770 involved in any wars... 394 00:19:47,770 --> 00:19:50,330 for which they were drafting young men, 395 00:19:50,330 --> 00:19:51,630 and uh... 396 00:19:51,630 --> 00:19:55,010 uh, it seemed a relatively safe time to do it. And even then I was nervous 397 00:19:55,010 --> 00:19:58,350 about going into the United States to visit family. 398 00:19:58,350 --> 00:20:00,420 Uh, finally I did, 399 00:20:00,420 --> 00:20:01,830 several times, 400 00:20:01,830 --> 00:20:04,950 all before the uh... the disasters of 401 00:20:04,950 --> 00:20:08,890 September 11th, 2001. 402 00:20:08,890 --> 00:20:10,409 >> INTERVIEWER: Knowing what you know now, 403 00:20:10,409 --> 00:20:12,899 would you have done it again? 404 00:20:12,899 --> 00:20:17,950 >> MIKE: Knowing what I know now, uh, rather than deserting I would have, uh, 405 00:20:17,950 --> 00:20:20,510 refused to draft in the first place. 406 00:20:20,510 --> 00:20:23,490 Uh, never have allowed myself to be drafted 407 00:20:23,490 --> 00:20:25,670 Uh, I certainly... 408 00:20:25,670 --> 00:20:30,330 I think I was quite right in choosing not to go to Vietnam 409 00:20:30,330 --> 00:20:32,509 Uh, I think I 410 00:20:32,509 --> 00:20:33,390 was 411 00:20:33,390 --> 00:20:36,120 naive about the way the world worked 412 00:20:36,120 --> 00:20:42,190 in that I thought I could go to Vietnam by my choice as a non-combatant and try 413 00:20:42,190 --> 00:20:43,370 to 414 00:20:43,370 --> 00:20:46,190 save at least American lives. 415 00:20:46,190 --> 00:20:47,010 Um... 416 00:20:47,010 --> 00:20:50,370 The odds are I wouldn't have done very well in that role. Most 417 00:20:50,370 --> 00:20:53,750 uh, military medics in Vietnam... 418 00:20:53,750 --> 00:20:57,730 Uh... Well they themselves suffered a high casualty rate. They were generally 419 00:20:57,730 --> 00:21:01,430 expected to carry fire arms to defend themselves. 420 00:21:01,430 --> 00:21:02,639 Uh, I would have been 421 00:21:02,639 --> 00:21:06,800 a bit of an odd duck in any case. 422 00:21:06,800 --> 00:21:13,340 >> INTERVIEWER: Would you advise people in a similar position as yourself, to do is you have done? 423 00:21:13,340 --> 00:21:15,039 >> MIKE: I would advise any 424 00:21:15,039 --> 00:21:18,329 young men drafted to go fight in foreign wars, 425 00:21:18,329 --> 00:21:23,159 not to do so. I would really advise any young 426 00:21:23,159 --> 00:21:25,090 Americans, 427 00:21:25,090 --> 00:21:30,530 not to go fight in Iraq, Afghanistan, or any other foreign wars the U.S. should 428 00:21:30,530 --> 00:21:31,890 engage in. 429 00:21:31,890 --> 00:21:33,590 I don't think those wars 430 00:21:33,590 --> 00:21:38,300 settle any problems. I don't think those wars do any good for the United States. 431 00:21:38,300 --> 00:21:43,030 Certainly the Vietnam War did no good for the United States. It had... The Iraq war 432 00:21:43,030 --> 00:21:44,420 has 433 00:21:44,420 --> 00:21:49,770 done no good for the United States, and the Afghanistan war is proving to be 434 00:21:49,770 --> 00:21:54,580 an even worse disaster and has already gone on longer than the Vietnam War. 435 00:21:54,580 --> 00:21:55,909 It is 436 00:21:55,909 --> 00:21:59,919 chewing up the lives of the people in those countries and building an immense 437 00:21:59,919 --> 00:22:02,030 hatred against the United States. 438 00:22:02,030 --> 00:22:06,330 It's killing young Americans who go over there. 439 00:22:06,330 --> 00:22:08,970 Uh, I see... 440 00:22:08,970 --> 00:22:13,200 I see no benefit from any of those wars and wouldn't want anyone 441 00:22:13,200 --> 00:22:15,720 to... to go fight in them. 442 00:22:15,720 --> 00:22:18,799 >> INTERVIEWER: As you thoroughly talked about the United States involvement; 443 00:22:18,799 --> 00:22:23,160 what is your opinion in Canada's involvement in the modern wars? 444 00:22:23,160 --> 00:22:25,080 >> MIKE: Canada's involvement? 445 00:22:25,080 --> 00:22:27,970 As, uh, as an affiliate of 446 00:22:27,970 --> 00:22:30,790 the United States, supposedly 447 00:22:30,790 --> 00:22:33,520 through... Well I'm thinking of Afghanistan now 448 00:22:33,520 --> 00:22:37,330 fortunately we weren't stupid enough to get involved in the Iraqi war. At least 449 00:22:37,330 --> 00:22:39,110 not by sending soldiers. 450 00:22:39,110 --> 00:22:43,070 But we're in up to our necks in Afghanistan 451 00:22:43,070 --> 00:22:45,830 and uh... 452 00:22:45,830 --> 00:22:48,150 Uh, I think it is 453 00:22:48,150 --> 00:22:49,760 wrong to be there. 454 00:22:49,760 --> 00:22:53,030 Uh, we should not be assisting 455 00:22:53,030 --> 00:22:56,550 the U.S. in their adventure in Afghanistan and it's going to be a 456 00:22:56,550 --> 00:23:00,490 disastrous adventure in Afghanistan. 457 00:23:00,490 --> 00:23:01,600 Um, someone 458 00:23:01,600 --> 00:23:06,900 famous, whose name I've forgotten, once said 'those who do not know their history are 459 00:23:06,900 --> 00:23:08,720 condemned to repeat it'. 460 00:23:08,720 --> 00:23:10,130 The British 461 00:23:10,130 --> 00:23:14,890 have invaded Afghanistan four times, if you come this time as 462 00:23:14,890 --> 00:23:17,830 a British invasion, because they're part of the NATO faces 463 00:23:17,830 --> 00:23:19,090 forces also. 464 00:23:19,090 --> 00:23:22,710 The British have gotten their asses kicked in Afghanistan 465 00:23:22,710 --> 00:23:27,299 four times. One time when they invaded Afghanistan they went in with an army 466 00:23:27,299 --> 00:23:28,700 that probably had 467 00:23:28,700 --> 00:23:33,150 including camp followers, and, and mercenaries a quarter of a million 468 00:23:33,150 --> 00:23:36,020 people, and they sent back one 469 00:23:36,020 --> 00:23:40,300 medical officer, came riding back out of Afghanistan to the 470 00:23:40,300 --> 00:23:42,080 Red Fort at Lahore, to say 471 00:23:42,080 --> 00:23:45,220 'I am all that is left of the Army of the Indus'. 472 00:23:45,220 --> 00:23:49,360 No one has succeeded in invading Afghanistan. The Russians got their butts 473 00:23:49,360 --> 00:23:50,940 kicked in Afghanistan. 474 00:23:50,940 --> 00:23:57,110 Alexander the Great only managed to get through there by marrying into the, the... 475 00:23:57,110 --> 00:23:58,419 tribal 476 00:23:58,419 --> 00:24:00,630 uh... structure. 477 00:24:00,630 --> 00:24:04,590 The Afghans simply do not like foreigners marching through their land 478 00:24:04,590 --> 00:24:07,320 and particularly do not like foreigners telling them 479 00:24:07,320 --> 00:24:09,080 what to do. 480 00:24:09,080 --> 00:24:11,029 It's not going to succeed. 481 00:24:11,029 --> 00:24:14,340 Uh, it's an unjust war um... 482 00:24:14,340 --> 00:24:18,779 and it's going to be a very unsuccessful war. But it's still killing Afghans, 483 00:24:18,779 --> 00:24:24,159 and Canadians, and Americans, and British, and Pakistanis, 484 00:24:24,159 --> 00:24:26,980 and doing what wars do; kill people. 485 00:24:26,980 --> 00:24:31,190 >> INTERVIEWER: What were the long-term decisions of deserting to Canada? 486 00:24:31,190 --> 00:24:35,990 >> MIKE: Long-term decisions were uh... It probably kept me from getting a university 487 00:24:35,990 --> 00:24:40,990 degree, which I kind of regret. Uh, in hindsight I probably would have had 488 00:24:40,990 --> 00:24:45,159 some more interesting career choices If I had a university degree 489 00:24:45,159 --> 00:24:46,340 Um... 490 00:24:46,340 --> 00:24:47,310 It's... 491 00:24:47,310 --> 00:24:48,840 But uh, 492 00:24:48,840 --> 00:24:54,430 one of the long-term, uh, choices has been that I am alive, happy, and healthy 493 00:24:54,430 --> 00:24:58,659 and in Canada. So I can't regret it too much. 494 00:24:58,659 --> 00:25:03,669 >> INTERVIEWER: The Canadian government now retunely returns deserters to the U.S. to face trial. 495 00:25:03,669 --> 00:25:05,150 What do you think of that? 496 00:25:05,150 --> 00:25:11,360 >> MIKE: Wrong! That's wrong. Uh... The Canadian government when I came to Canada felt 497 00:25:11,360 --> 00:25:13,130 that it really wasn't... 498 00:25:13,130 --> 00:25:16,440 that my past history was no business of theirs, as long that I hadn't committed 499 00:25:16,440 --> 00:25:17,990 any crimes, 500 00:25:17,990 --> 00:25:18,929 and uh... 501 00:25:18,929 --> 00:25:22,250 deserting from the U.S. Army was not on their list of crimes. 502 00:25:22,250 --> 00:25:23,629 So um... 503 00:25:23,629 --> 00:25:25,520 They didn't ask back then. 504 00:25:25,520 --> 00:25:28,049 In fact, they were fairly careful not ask. 505 00:25:28,049 --> 00:25:30,080 Uh, I don't think 506 00:25:30,080 --> 00:25:32,440 that Canada should be 507 00:25:32,440 --> 00:25:34,320 enforcing any kind of 508 00:25:34,320 --> 00:25:36,289 U.S. laws about desertion. 509 00:25:36,289 --> 00:25:37,970 And the few 510 00:25:37,970 --> 00:25:39,290 U.S. Army deserters 511 00:25:39,290 --> 00:25:41,820 that I've talked to... the two 512 00:25:41,820 --> 00:25:44,750 who both had experience in Iraq, 513 00:25:44,750 --> 00:25:48,260 had extremely good reasons for leaving the United States. 514 00:25:48,260 --> 00:25:52,090 Both of them had served tours of duty in Iraq. 515 00:25:52,090 --> 00:25:53,620 They had experienced 516 00:25:53,620 --> 00:25:54,590 that war 517 00:25:54,590 --> 00:25:59,159 and they had no intention of experiencing any more of it, 518 00:25:59,159 --> 00:26:00,720 for very good causes. 519 00:26:00,720 --> 00:26:03,900 >> INTERVIEWER: The idea for this interview came from reading a short story about a person who 520 00:26:03,900 --> 00:26:07,690 decided to go to Canada, but changed his mind at the last minute. 521 00:26:07,690 --> 00:26:09,820 The last lines in this story are: 522 00:26:09,820 --> 00:26:15,170 "I survived, but it's not a happy ending. I was a coward, I went to [...] war." 523 00:26:15,170 --> 00:26:17,380 Would you agree with this person? 524 00:26:17,380 --> 00:26:23,730 >> MIKE: I would, and I feel pretty much the same way about it and, uh, I would... 525 00:26:23,730 --> 00:26:27,430 hope that if this story was patterned on a real person 526 00:26:27,430 --> 00:26:32,600 uh... he would think again about it and before serving another tour of duty on 527 00:26:32,600 --> 00:26:35,549 some U.S. war 528 00:26:35,549 --> 00:26:38,010 somewhere on the other side of the world 529 00:26:38,010 --> 00:26:41,990 would consider coming to Canada or almost any other 530 00:26:41,990 --> 00:26:47,980 country rather than continuing in the U.S. military. 531 00:26:47,980 --> 00:26:53,230 >> INTERVIEWER: What are your feelings towards people who didn't decide to leave? 532 00:26:53,230 --> 00:26:54,399 >> MIKE: Um... 533 00:26:54,399 --> 00:26:56,059 I uh... 534 00:26:56,059 --> 00:27:00,350 I have to say first that I am not angry at them, any more than I am angry for 535 00:27:00,350 --> 00:27:01,820 instance at 536 00:27:01,820 --> 00:27:06,630 Canadians who chose to serve in the Canadian forces in Afghanistan 537 00:27:06,630 --> 00:27:07,490 Um... 538 00:27:07,490 --> 00:27:11,990 [Music starts] I think they have been misled. 539 00:27:11,990 --> 00:27:12,770 Uh... 540 00:27:12,770 --> 00:27:13,700 To lead them into... 541 00:27:13,700 --> 00:27:18,370 To lead men into war, to lead people into war is to mislead them, 542 00:27:18,370 --> 00:27:23,510 in any case. But I think they've been misled about the reasons the war 543 00:27:23,510 --> 00:27:28,520 and, uh, the reasons for their going over there. 544 00:27:28,520 --> 00:27:30,669 I'm sure they go over there 545 00:27:30,669 --> 00:27:34,100 believing that they're doing something good for their country. 546 00:27:34,100 --> 00:27:37,980 I hope so anyway, or maybe they go over there because they simply have very 547 00:27:37,980 --> 00:27:40,260 few choices in their life. 548 00:27:40,260 --> 00:27:45,900 But in any case, I really don't hold them responsible for that. I hold, uh, the uh... 549 00:27:45,900 --> 00:27:49,330 The governments who are sending them over there responsible for that. 550 00:27:49,330 --> 00:27:50,610 Uh... 551 00:27:50,610 --> 00:27:52,720 I hope that they wont be damaged, 552 00:27:52,720 --> 00:27:54,730 but I do think that war 553 00:27:54,730 --> 00:27:59,130 damages people. I don't think you can go through the experience of war 554 00:27:59,130 --> 00:28:03,700 uh... and come out of it scot-free without any scars. 555 00:28:03,700 --> 00:28:09,370 uh, and I uh... I would hope they come out of it with as few scars as possible. 556 00:28:09,370 --> 00:28:12,240 >> INTERVIEWER: Is there anything else you would like to say? 557 00:28:12,240 --> 00:28:20,420 >> MIKE: Um... If I had to sum up, uh, I think uh, that I made the right choices I'm happy to be 558 00:28:20,420 --> 00:28:22,049 where I am now 559 00:28:22,049 --> 00:28:23,970 and I hope 560 00:28:23,970 --> 00:28:25,230 any other 561 00:28:25,230 --> 00:28:30,360 Canadians or Americans who are offered a choice of going off to war 562 00:28:30,360 --> 00:28:31,930 somewhere... 563 00:28:31,930 --> 00:28:35,019 like Afghanistan or Iraq, uh, 564 00:28:35,019 --> 00:28:40,960 turn down that choice and stay here and find a life... 565 00:28:40,960 --> 00:28:43,580 uh, find a more peaceful path. 566 00:28:43,580 --> 00:28:46,970 >> INTERVIEWER: Well, thank you and hopefully people will learn from your experiences.