User talk:+JMJ+
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User:Cukrakalnis/Archive1 (2020-2022)
Category[edit]
- Hello, I'm wondering why have you deleted this category [[1]]? Guccee (talk) 00:51, 14 January 2023 (UTC)
- It says in the infobox Royal dynasty of the Grand Duchy of Lithuania, which means it was not part of the nobility of Poland. Cukrakalnis (talk) 19:42, 14 January 2023 (UTC)
- In that case, the category "Nobility of Lithuania" should also be removed. Almost all families descended from Giedymin became Polonized (a small part became Russified). Even the descendants of Gediminas, who are still alive today, live in Poland and use the Polish language. The heritage of these families is also the heritage of Poland. Guccee (talk) 20:58, 14 January 2023 (UTC)
- But none of the people and houses currently in the Category:Gediminid dynasty were polonized. So, Category:Nobility of Poland is inapplicable to the category about the Gediminid dynasty. Cukrakalnis (talk) 21:06, 14 January 2023 (UTC)
- Also, none of these people was Lithuanian in today's sense of the Lithuania meaning. So, Category:Nobility of Lithuania is inapplicable to the category about the Giedymin dynasty as well.
- No member of the Giedymin dynasty supported the vision of the present Republic of Lithuania. In the times of Giedymin the title "Lithuanian" could be claimed only by a noblemans.
- In today's Lithuania there is not even a single descendant of the nobility of the former Grand Duchy of Lithuania. I myself have a noble Lithuanian origin, I identify with the Grand Duchy of Lithuania and Polishness. Guccee (talk) 21:54, 14 January 2023 (UTC)
- You made many absolutely incorrect claims. Category:Nobility of Lithuania is relevant to the people as defined by en:Lithuanian nobility. Your statement of In today's Lithuania there is not even a single descendant of the nobility of the former Grand Duchy of Lithuania is patently false, because there is a whole association by them, for themselves, in Lithuania. It's called the Lithuanian Royal Union of Nobility. In fact, I myself have Lithuanian noble blood.
- I am unsure by what you mean by No member of the Giedymin dynasty supported the vision of the present Republic of Lithuania., but if you mean to claim that the en:Gediminids were en:Slavs instead of en:Lithuanians, then you are absolutely wrong. They were Lithuanians that spoke the en:Lithuanian language and whose whole rule was based on the ethnically Lithuanian en:Lithuania Propria. Cukrakalnis (talk) 22:02, 14 January 2023 (UTC)
- Nobility in the meaning of en:Lithuanian nobility in its vast majority belongs to the Polish nobility. Your attempt to separate the two entities is incorrect. In my statement: In today's Lithuania there is not even a single descendant of the nobility of the former Grand Duchy of Lithuania." I meant all the descendants of Giedymin. But apart from them, the House of Radziwiłł, House of Sapieha, House of Tyszkiewicz, or even House of Romer and House of Komorowski - the largest still living families of the Grand Duchy of Lithuania, which had the greatest influence on its development. The entire genealogy of the Commonwealth's nobility has been researched by Dr. Marek Minakowski. The vast majority of the nobility living today, who came from the indigenous Grand Duchy of Lithuania, now live in Poland. No member of the Gediminas dynasty supported the vision of the present Republic of Lithuania. - by that i ment that Giedymins descendants (Jagiełło and families descending from him) became Polonized by their own will. None of them returned to Lithuanianness in the present sense of this word. So giving them the Category:Nobility of Lithuania, despite the fact that Poland was the will of their ancestors, is inappropriate.
- Your statement is misguided because polonization in later centuries does not deny their Lithuanianness in the medieval and other periods. So, Category:Nobility of Lithuania is a very relevant category, and any denial of that is clear case of pushing an ahistorical narrative. The Category:Nobility of Poland is absolutely irrelevant when talking about the Category:Gediminid dynasty, because the ruling dynasty of Lithuania was not part of the Polish nobility. Did some descendants of the Gediminids become part of Polish nobility? Yes. But some descendants of the Gediminids became part of the Russian, German and etc. nobility. That does not make the Gediminids part of the Category:Nobility of Russia or Category:Nobility of Germany. The same must apply to Category:Nobility of Poland in that category.--Cukrakalnis (talk) 15:21, 16 January 2023 (UTC)
- Your statement is misguided because polonization in later centuries does not deny their Lithuanianness in the medieval and other periods. It does not deny their Lithuanianness in the old sense of the word Lithuanianness. Because this Lithuanianness refers to the Grand Duchy of Lithuania, and not to the Republic of Lithuania known to us today. None of Giedymins descendants chose the Republic of Lithuania, while 18 families descended from Giedymin chose Poland, and 7 - Russia. That's why I wonder why you assign them to "Category:Nobility of Lithuania", and not, for example, to "Category: Nobility of Grand Duchy Od Lithuania". In terms of cultural heritage, the Giedyminowicz family belongs primarily to the Grand Duchy of Lithuania (and thus to Poland). The fact that the present Republic of Lithuania is trying to be a successor to the former Grand Duchy of Lithuania is not a sufficient argument to claim that this is the case. All real evidence shows that Poland has greater rights to the culture of the Grand Duchy of Lithuania than current Lithuania. Polishness, which was accepted by the majority of the former Lithuanian nobility and almost all Giedymins descendants, gives a sufficient argument to assign the Giedyminowicz family to the Category:Nobility of Poland, and also, by way of a compromise, to the Category:Nobility of Lithuania, as the present Republic of Lithuania describes itself as the cultural heirs of the Grand Duchy of Lithuania. Guccee (talk) 23:36, 20 January 2023 (UTC)
- First line of en:Lithuanian nobility: The Lithuanian nobility or szlachta (Lithuanian: bajorija, šlėkta) was historically a legally privileged hereditary elite class in the Kingdom of Lithuania and Grand Duchy of Lithuania (including during period of foreign rule 1795–1918) consisting of Lithuanians from Lithuania Proper; Samogitians from Duchy of Samogitia; following Lithuania's eastward expansion into what is now Belarus, Ukraine and Russia, many ethnically Ruthenian noble families (boyars); and, later on, predominantly Baltic German families from the Duchy of Livonia and Inflanty Voivodeship.
- The heritage of the Grand Duchy of Lithuania does NOT belong to Poland. You are pushing an obviously Polish POV. Presenting the inclusion of the Category:Nobility of Lithuania as a compromise, when the discussion is about the Grand Duchy of LITHUANIA, is simply ludicrous and shows that you are clearly pushing a very incorrect POV. Cukrakalnis (talk) 19:31, 21 January 2023 (UTC)
- Your statement is misguided because polonization in later centuries does not deny their Lithuanianness in the medieval and other periods. It does not deny their Lithuanianness in the old sense of the word Lithuanianness. Because this Lithuanianness refers to the Grand Duchy of Lithuania, and not to the Republic of Lithuania known to us today. None of Giedymins descendants chose the Republic of Lithuania, while 18 families descended from Giedymin chose Poland, and 7 - Russia. That's why I wonder why you assign them to "Category:Nobility of Lithuania", and not, for example, to "Category: Nobility of Grand Duchy Od Lithuania". In terms of cultural heritage, the Giedyminowicz family belongs primarily to the Grand Duchy of Lithuania (and thus to Poland). The fact that the present Republic of Lithuania is trying to be a successor to the former Grand Duchy of Lithuania is not a sufficient argument to claim that this is the case. All real evidence shows that Poland has greater rights to the culture of the Grand Duchy of Lithuania than current Lithuania. Polishness, which was accepted by the majority of the former Lithuanian nobility and almost all Giedymins descendants, gives a sufficient argument to assign the Giedyminowicz family to the Category:Nobility of Poland, and also, by way of a compromise, to the Category:Nobility of Lithuania, as the present Republic of Lithuania describes itself as the cultural heirs of the Grand Duchy of Lithuania. Guccee (talk) 23:36, 20 January 2023 (UTC)
i hope you are doing well[edit]
And whatever it was that you were taking care of RL went well for you. I'd like to ask you a couple of quick questions, not necessarily this instant, and wondered if some wiki-time had opened up? The best way to reach me right now is email from my page. thanks Elinruby (talk) 03:48, 10 November 2023 (UTC)
- Yeah, I'm doing well, thanks for the concern. I unfortunately failed the RL thing (which I blame on me not focusing on it earlier & too much Wiki-time), but regardless, it could be far worse and things are still salvageable. Still, I have way more wiki time available now than before, which is the good news. I'll send you an email so you can reply to it. Cukrakalnis (talk) 16:46, 10 November 2023 (UTC)