File talk:EndurancePic.jpg

PD review discussion

The alleged uploader of this file on en wiki does not exist. How to verify it? — Rlevse • Talk • 20:44, 23 April 2009 (UTC)

I checked w:en:Special:Contributions/Abroomhe. He logged in for one day only in 2006, he edited only one article, w:en:HMS Endurance (1967), and uploaded only this image. Sv1xv (talk) 20:51, 23 April 2009 (UTC)

Hmm. So he may have taken it but we don't know and can't contact him. I did a google image search but could not find it. So it's possible. Thoughts? — Rlevse • Talk • 21:46, 23 April 2009 (UTC)

AGF. Uploader exists, stated it was his own image, released it as {{PD-self}} himself,[1] and there's no contradicting evidence. So why question this image at all? Lupo 06:25, 24 April 2009 (UTC)

I posted the request as a test case for transfers from Wikipedia to Commons. Soon the image on Wikipedia shall be deleted and some of the evidence about its copyright status will be lost. Sv1xv (talk) 06:39, 24 April 2009 (UTC)

It's reasonable to question a photo by an individual that seems to require special setup (in this case, a well-positioned boat). His characterization of himself as "ex Royal Navy" in the Author field lends this some credence. Dcoetzee (talk) 06:40, 24 April 2009 (UTC)

One of the reasons I posted this here was to determine in this early stage of PD review's existence just what our standards will be and where we draw the line on cases such as this. I'll leave this here for a little more input. It seems to me at this point that the consensus is it's PD. — Rlevse • Talk • 09:59, 24 April 2009 (UTC)

I am more suspicious if an uploaded photo is of professional quality or if the photographer is a professional. If we simply assumed good faith on such an occassion, what is to prevent someone from scanning a photo from a niche publication, upload it under an account (named as the photographer), and never edit under the account again? The impetus is on the project to offer materials that are offered freely, not stolen goods. For this case though, judging from the angle at which the subject is focused on, I believe the photo is taken on board a Lynx helicopter from the Endurance. The photographer is either a Royal Navy personnel or one of the research crew. Whether Alan Broomhead is indeed the uploader (and if he indeed is the photographer) is a matter of faith (at least it is not a joke name).[2][3] The photo's texture (cross-hatched patterns) suggest it was a scan, possibly of a matte photograph; at least it is not from a newspaper or gloss-page magazine. All in all, evidence suggest the uploader could be who he claimed to be. I would not oppose others from AGF for this photo (hence letting it stay on the servers), but as I said earlier, it would be on a case-by-case basis. Maybe one of those "file was nominated for deletion but concensus agreed for it to be kept" templates (like w:Template:Oldffdfull) would be better served for those images. Jappalang (talk) 15:00, 24 April 2009 (UTC)

Alan Broomhead's claim of authorship is mainly supported by the fact that the photo he uploaded has not showed up on any official or private web site. Even my own photo of HMS Endurance has been used somewhere [4], without attribution. Sv1xv (talk) 15:23, 24 April 2009 (UTC)

Well, it showed up at the HMS Endurance Tracking Project and this personal site in reduced form. Something just popped into my mind. If a Royal Navy personnel took the picture, should it not be under UK Crown Copyrights (note the 50p stamp on the personal site show a remarkable resemblance to the photo as well)? Jappalang (talk) 15:42, 24 April 2009 (UTC)

If your image was used without attribution, should you not remind the site (HMS Endurance Tracking Project) of it (politely first)? Jappalang (talk) 15:46, 24 April 2009 (UTC)

I did, using an on-line contact form. [5]]

Sv1xv (talk) 05:30, 25 April 2009 (UTC)

And today I received a reply from them, asking for specific instructions.

Sv1xv (talk) 12:20, 27 April 2009 (UTC)

If it's Crown Copyright, it would not be PD, at least not yet. Are Brit gov pics Crown Copyright even if the taker was not an official photog for the Navy? As to these "I took it myself" cases, there is a degree of AGF here, the question is, where do we draw the line? I think we have to do it case by case. — Rlevse • Talk • 20:04, 24 April 2009 (UTC)

I believe being an official photo for the Navy would not suffice in this case. The only way that this is PD is if it is a self taken/released image, as claimed. This is a good example of the borderline cases we will be dealing with. I don't think the similarity to the 50p stamp is cause for concern (as there are some differences, i'd put it down to coincidence). However the author removed a "(self)" label from after the author, which begs the question "Why?". I believe this is the "Alan Broomhead", and it says he is a Royal Navy Aircraft engineer, so I think the person who took the photo is Alan Broomhead. Now the only question is did the wiki account belong to Broomhead. The user name suggests so, as does the editing profile, article of self interest. All things considered, in this case I would probably give it the green light as being public domain. Rambo's Revenge (talk) 23:14, 24 April 2009 (UTC)

Do I understand this correctly, unlike America where a US GOV photo is PD, in Britain they're not? So if this guy took it FOR the Navy, it's not PD but Crown Copyright but if he took it for himself it is PD? — Rlevse • Talk • 23:18, 24 April 2009 (UTC)

For Crown Copyright it would depend on the age of the photo, but yes you are right in that is not automatically PD. Rambo's Revenge (talk) 23:24, 24 April 2009 (UTC)

Summary

1. Alan Broomhead is a real person who has served in the Royal Navy as a helicopter engineer.
2. Abroomhe, a contributor on Englishi WP claiming to be Alan Broomhead, uploaded the photograph of HMS Endurance, claimed copyright on it and released it to the public domain. The same contributor has only contributed information about the allocation of helicopters to HMS Endurance.
3. The image uploaded on English WP is a scan of a color print and of reasonable size, with a side ratio of approx. 15:10. It was not scanned from a magazine or other printed material (postcard, brochure).
4. Until this day the photograph has never appeared elsewhere, and has not been published by the Crown. Only exception is a lower quality copy by the HMS Endurance Tracking Project, who also display another Wikipedia picture of the same ship.

My view is that we may accept the authorship claim and the susequent release to the public domain as genuine. Sv1xv (talk) 05:10, 25 April 2009 (UTC)

I can agree with that. This isn't the strongest case but I can support putting our PDr tag on it. And we should copy this whole thread to the image talk page. Any more input? — Rlevse • Talk • 11:44, 25 April 2009 (UTC)

I suggest to do so (copy thread to image talk page) and implement a switch in the {{PDreview}} template that can point to the talk page and thread. Jappalang (talk) 01:00, 27 April 2009 (UTC)

I'll ask Rocket000, the coder. — Rlevse • Talk • 01:46, 27 April 2009 (UTC)

No further comments during the last few days, so I added {{PDreview}} and I am copying the discussion to the talk page. Sv1xv (talk) 13:57, 29 April 2009 (UTC)