File talk:Flag of Croatia (1947–1990).svg

The Flag that R-41 push for is not correct, because the red star must have broader golden edge and the top of the star which goes into the red field (of the flag) must go (the top) in the middle of the red field (stripe) of the flag. See here -- official WIPO website. -- Rainman 23:45, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

And Flag of Luxembourg has a different variant of blue than what was the Flag of SR Croatia variant. -- Rainman 00:05, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

According to a 1993 edict, the Luxembourg flag is 299 C in the Pantone colors. I honestly feel this is too light of a blue. I honestly do not know of any of the specific colors of the Yugoslav or the other republic's flags, but I do notice this construction sheet at [1]. That was made off of Yugoslav law, with the exception of the golden border on the star. User:Zscout370 ^{(Return fire)} 03:46, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

Well WIPO was not Yugoslav parliament, or Croatian. Also, the blue color on taht link is not the same color on your flag. Im not blind --Suradnik13 14:00, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

First see this. It is the description of the system by which WIPO protects (even defunct or shall we say "no longer with us") symbols of any entity that is a member of the Treaty. As much I know, Ministry of foreign affairs of SFRY requested from WIPO storage and protection of symbols of Yugoslavia (and the republics that constitute it) on 1967-07-11.

This is very useful now, when we have no one to decide what is the official and what is not official.

There is even a document of WIPO -- here that furthermore confirms the validity of the designs I have proposed.

Then WIPO sends the protected symbols to every member of the Paris Treaty. This was done in the case of Croatia too.

If you do not remember the times when we as chilidren were given flags of Yugoslav republics and Aliance of Communists then you (Suradnik13) are blind.

Rainman 23:28, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

I believe the last post isn't getting to what we are looking for. What we are trying to find out is what colors should be used for the flag. I personally feel that if the Croatian flag now is using the same colors as this flag, then we should use the colors from the Croat flag. While the WIPO notice at least gives us something to draw, I just feel the colors there are just way too dark on that scan. User:Zscout370 ^{(Return fire)} 00:33, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

WIPO Website is showing a basic layout of the flag which is highly inaccurate

Even if the WIPO website shows such colours, I highly doubt that the flag would have a dull brown outline along the flag. The Socialist Republic flags were simply based on the colours of the SFRY flag, the tricolour flags of Croatia, Montenegro Serbia, and Slovenia all had the same shades of red, blue, and yellow, according to a book made in 1980 called "Flags of the World" which was "Edited by E.M.C. Barraclough and W.C. Crampton". After the republics declared independence, they changed their national colours.

The SFRY is a nonexistent state and nobody can change or make some new decisions on behalf of that country. Respecting the position of the two authors, they couldn't have contacted each and every country to confirm the exact colours, not in that time (1980.). Even today we have like situations where much of the authors, manufacturers and bunch of other have different oppinons. Despite the technology and evergroving knowledge oppinions will always differ. WIPO is a key evidence that Ministry of Foreign Affairs had on behalf of the Government of SFRY asked for the protection of those symbols. Why this is not a compelling fact for you, beats me. On the other hand I have an encyclopaedia that depicts dark blue color on all flags alike, that is called (I mean the calling of the colour) in the indiginate language (Serbo-Croatian or Croato-Serbian) modra.

This was done by an group of encyclopaedist experts who clearly haven't read the constitutions of all of socialist republic of the time (All of the constitutions of socialist republic's state that it is a colour of blue). In other encyclopaedias from that time we have different schematics of SR Bosnia and Herzegovinia flag, as well of the size of the golden border of the red five pointed star.

Not a single book, being domestic, being foreign cannot change the fact that SR Slovenia and SR Croatia had different blue colours on their flag, and the second fact that SR Montenegro as well SR Serbia had a darker blue than those of SFRY.

You should reconsider your position.

Rainman 00:32, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

I don't have any of the books mentioned in the first post, but new links were given to me by a Croat, so I will need to look at those. User:Zscout370 ^{(Return fire)} 21:52, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

R-41

Stop reverting without clear proofs. One unofficial image doesn't mean anything. SFRY is no longer a state. SR Croatia doesn't longer exist, now WIPO is our only choice. And witnesses also. Paper flags were mass produced at that time so if pure numbers would be basis for decision then WIPO wins. -- Rainman 22:56, 21 February 2008 (UTC) Stop reverting without clear proofs. One unofficial image doesn't mean anything. SFRY is no longer a state. SR Croatia doesn't longer exist, now WIPO is our only choice. And witnesses also. Paper flags were mass produced at that time so if pure numbers would be basis for decision then WIPO wins. -- Rainman 22:56, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

Rainmain, you have one source which shows the outline of the red star as being brown, BROWN! If you want to literally agree to the WIPO site, then you must make the rim of the star brown, which I cannot believe it was. To be quick and blunt, the WIPO image is an OUTLINE sketch for the flag, made by someone who used a brown outline for the red star. It is inaccurate, all the WIPO sketch means is that for copyright purposes is that no one can adopt a flag with those same basic characteristics, a red-white-blue tricolour with a star in the middle without it being recognized as the flag of SR Croatia. I know that you will not listen to me, even after I have shown you a picture of an actual SR Croatian flag which has the thin yellow-gold outline around the star as the SFR Yugoslav and SR Serbian and Montenegrin flags have (unlike the WIPO sketch), and has a darker blue than that of the rough WIPO sketch. Since it is so uncommon to see an SR Croatian flag and that I have found an image of one, I think you should be more respectful of why I believe it follows the same colour format as that of the others. I've found an image of an actual SR Croatian flag, if you can find an image of the actual flag (which mind you I believe DO STILL exist in museums or in flag collections) that disputes what I have found, show it, then I can believe you, but I cannot submit myself to follow the guidelines of the WIPO sketch which uses a thick brown outline around the star, and apparently even you could not bring yourself to make the outline brown, so you are not following the WIPO sketch either.--R-41 22:20, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

R-41, you have a source that shows disrespect of the flag. And the colour is not brown but gold which can be represented in a million ways, one of those is using yellow. You know all of those info but still claim sameness of all the Yugoslav flags. I agree that in this case not all of the WIPO colours were used but this is only because you used yellow for the border of other red stars. WIPO image is not an outline sketch but a flag printed on paper (of better quality paper) with those gold borders of stars. Interestingly enough WIPO stores SR Serbia with broader border of the red star (same as SR Slovenia and SR Croatia) but in the same time stores SFRY with not so broad border (hem if you preffer) and also SR Montenegro with the same thinner hem (border). So one could say that even flags of the SR Montenegro and of the SR Serbia were not equall. All of the republics had constitutions and own manufacturers so differences exist. But the case here is that we have proof (in WIPO) and in the printed flags that were ordinary used by the general population - that use the WIPO colour scheme. This is also a proof and not just flags on textiles. Those specimens could also be found in museums. But what is the case here. The case is that SFRY is no longer with us, we have not sources that are collaborated with written evidence that a governmental body can issue. We have WIPO where the Government of SFRY requested by its Ministry of Foreign Affairs storage and protection of symbols, orders, decorations, flags, CoA's and other materials that were officialy used at the time. The photograph you used as evidence is demeening and is a just one photo with no meta-data (not in the sence of camera metadata) no governmental conclusion or collaboration of validity. On the other hand WIPO is a valid and reliable source (in the main lines or in general), little defect that those pictures can have do not diminish its importance. SR Croatia had lighter version than SR Slovenia, this was lighter than SFRY flag and the SFRY flag was lighter than SR Serbia and the SR Montenegro had. -- Rainman 23:44, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

Why there is no answer. -- Rainman 23:03, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

I see brown. Furthermore I find a picture THE ONLY PICTURE I've ever seen of an SR Croatian flag, and because some soldier has retrieved it and confuses it with a SFR Yugoslav flag you claim I'm using a source that DISRESPECTS THE FLAG! How dare you make such an assumption. I never meant to show the flag in disrespect and I will not let to try to put me into a position to make me have to defend a soldier who is just simply displaying a retrieved flag he found, DON'T WASTE TIME READING INTO IT ANY FURTHER! I'm tired of being nitpicky Rainman, but I protest to the "brown", "dark gold" or whatever rim the WIPO site claims the flag to be because the image is so poor quality that to take it literally would mean to avoid all the other sources and evidence which show different colours. Not to mention the picture I found, yes, unfortunately not the best, but it is of an ACTUAL SR Croatian flag, whatever the soldier was doing with it is beyond my concern, the importance Rainman is that it clearly shows the dimensions of the rim of the star and shows that the blue is darker than that of the WIPO. Now, I've found a picture, it would be best if you could find a picture of the actual flag to dispute mine, I already told you, it's not impossible to find a picture, as I have done already.--R-41 21:06, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

Oh and just one more thing Rainman, you claim the SR Serbian flag has a "thick rim" which you can verify on WIPO, I dispute that. Go to Youtube and look up "Death of Yugoslavia" you will find a BBC documentary, it shows the SR Serbian flag repeatedly at Serb rallies for Milosevic during Milosevic's rise to power in Serbia, there are a view good still pictures where you will see that it does have a thin rim like that of the SFR Yugoslav flag.--R-41 21:11, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

Here's an SR Serbian flag for you Rainman at this link, [2], its not like the WIPO at all.--R-41 21:30, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

R-41 and his pictures

This is very dubious - your usage of one and one only source for your flag information. You can find pictures all you like but when you do that be aware that pictures are not a coherent source. When someone, like I, showed evidence that is coroborated with documents and institutions which are obliged with International conventions - like WIPO, then you should put aside your photographical proofs. Who guarantees you that your pictures are not meant to mislead. You say that this is the first time you have seen the flag of SR Croatia, well I have seen it a lot, with darker, lighter and whatever colours you like, this is not the point, the point is that we have official proof.

As I said before, flags were preety expensive those days so offices were decorated, school children waived with what, do you remember or you are not even from frm Yugoslavia. They all used paper flags, which had exactly the same colouring as WIPO (with one difference - hem (border) of the red star was yellow because the manufacturers wasted not gold colour on such flags).

And which do you think is more numeruos. If Government of Yugoslavia decided to sent those images to WIPO and they in WIPO scaned them then you should be satisfied with that fact. That government (called officially The Federal Executive Council) authorized WIPO and WIPO communicated back to that FEC via Ministry of Foreign Affairs of SFRY then I do not see what is the matter here.

You are very well aware that gold and yellow are interchangeable in heraldry as well as vexillology.

Flag manufacturers are very frequently mislead and produce flags that are off from the standards.

In Yugoslavia's government they produced lots of flags of Yugoslavia (like the one on Tito's coffin) but that fact has not changed the production in all other republics.

I said that you have a source that shows disrespect of the Flag, nothing more, nothing less.

Those few flags in time of the breakup of Yugoslavia do not prove anything.

Rainman 01:29, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

And the image you quoted with the number (2) has broader hem (edge) of the red star than the so called proof of yours here.

Rainman 21:44, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

And here is most clear that even ordinary soldiers used flags with golden hem of the red star [3]. -- Rainman 21:49, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

And have you read the Constitution of the Socialist Republic of Croatia, adopted on February 22, 1974:

Article 7^th

The flag of the Socialist Republic of Croatia consists of three colours: red, white and blue, with red five-pointed star in the centre. The relation of width and length of the flag is 1:2. The colours of the flag are placed horizontally in the following order from the top: red white and blue. Each colour covers one third of the width of the flag. The star has a regular five-pointed shape and a golden (yellow) border. The central point of the star corresponds with the point of intersection of the diagonals of the flag. The upper arm of the star enters up to one half of the red colour of the flag. The lower branches of the star are also getting the adequate place in the blue colour of the flag.

Rainman 01:09, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

And what about this, colours like WIPO and border size also [4]. -- Rainman 01:17, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

Thank you for showing pictures. Now we're getting somewhere! The picture [5] appears the most accurate with most pictures I've seen of the flag, plus its from the time period in which the flag existed. You may be right that it was indeed a gold colour, but its not the brown-gold which WIPO shows. You are right that there are many unofficial flags that are made, what makes them official, for me, is their use in political institutions, etc. Unfortunately the Youtube videos for the BBC documentary Death of Yugoslavia have been removed. If you notice, you have claimed that the blues varied between the flags, but your source, WIPO shows light blue for all the flags. All it is connoting is that they all have blue. If WIPO is showing a constant shade of blue, while I see a darker blue on an actual SFR Yugoslav flag and SR Croatian flag, for me it means that WIPO is correct about one thing, the tricolour flags are based on each other, with the SFR Yugoslav flag as the obvious basis. This picture [6] I can tell is showing an official flag, it appears well made, the light-gold is very likely the right colour for the star rim, I will not protest if you change the star rim to a light gold, if you keep the other colours the same and keeping the star rim slim based on this image [7] which you posted, which I am sure is an official SFR Yugoslav flag.--R-41 01:49, 1 March 2008 (UTC)

Why have you posted links of the same citation instead of quoting my citation number (3) ?

Showing of pictures is nice, but this doesn't solve our problem. Plus that flag (you cited under 5, 6 & 7) was in its last days of offical usage because Croatia and Slovenia declared independence before the picture was taken (October 9, 1991). There are many, many colours, but when I say gold then this also means yellow (the two were interchangable). WIPO has scaned the images and there is a CD published so if you need aditional info ask them. The picture does show a gold colour, this is by all acounts correct and it is up to our vexillologist community at commons to decide weather gold or yellow would be used.

Why haven't you commented on the number 4 (that I have citted) ? This citation shows that there have been even broader edges That picture shows two UN soldiers on Prevlaka folding a SFRY and SRH flag. Blue colours are obviously different.

Blue colours at WIPO and in reality are different. Why stating such statements that WIPO is showing exactly the same blue colours when you know that is not correct.

And ask any vexillologist about the pollitical institution and flag usage - they would laugh out loud on first mention of that concept.

If a soldier carring a flag is a pollitical institution then every flag waived is a institution. Please do not go into a unsourced and undocumentary debate because those are unencyclopaedical in very nature of things.

Flags of the republics of frm SFRY were based on the constitutions of those republics and not on the Flag of SFRY.

The quotation that I made under the number 3 and that you quoted again under numbers 5, 6 & 7 shows a broader border of the red star(hem, trim) than what you used. And what you quoted under the number 2 show even broader border of the red star. Only WIPO has an official height and width of that border. For me there is no doubt that colours of SR Croatia flag and SR Slovenia flag were different form the SFRY flag and that SR Serbia and SR Montenegro had only simmilar flags because in praxis they have been made at different locations and some difference would exist. WIPO testifies about the difference of SR Serbia and SR Montenegro flag (but I an not concerned about this tiny detail).

The question is on Zscout370 to change back the file in version with the colour blue of the SR Croatia's flag that is according to WIPO's standards, the border around the red star doesn't concern me.

Rainman 03:28, 1 March 2008 (UTC)

WIPO Sources for:

• SR Bosnia and Herzegovina

• SR Croatia

• SR Macedonia

• SR Montenegro

• SR Serbia

• SR Slovenia

Rainman 04:11, 1 March 2008 (UTC)

Official document of WIPO (a UN specialised organization) [8]. -- Rainman 00:20, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

Can we have some input now. Zscout370 maybe? -- Rainman 18:10, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

Why this changes in the colours of the border and in the same time not broadening the edge to be visible. -- Rainman 00:23, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

I don't know about the size of the star, but the colors are fine. WIPO is not the be all, end all source for images related to flag. Sure, they might say the flag looks like this, but I do not trust WIPO at all. User:Zscout370 ^{(Return fire)} 20:34, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

My feelings exactly. I see no reason why the tricolour sr flags which are obviously based on the SFR Yugoslav flag would use any different blue and red than the shades of the SFR Yugoslav flag. If there is a document out there that says that the colours were different, I'll accept that, but until such is found, I must assume that the flags are simple redesigns of the SFR Yugoslav Flag.--R-41 01:34, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

Zscout370 has not accepted your views in total. I do not see where he has written that all of the republics that constituted SFR Yugoslavia must have the same blue colour. Also your approach which Zscout370 supported that clearly in this particular case your few pro.corbis.com pictures constitute sufficient grounds and that documents and oficial sources mean nothing. I have citted the document in which WIPO informs the SFRY Government that such designs would be protected also the Constitutions of each and every republics are what is the source for the flags of those republics and NOT SFRY flag. I will submit this to the disputes noticeboard eventually. -- Rainman 01:52, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

Validity of arguments

Marko Nikezić was the (as per US terminology) Secretary of State of SFRY (Minister of Foreign Affairs) at the time of initial protection by WIPO; and Mika Špiljak took over as President of the Government of SFRY. President of SFRY was Josip Broz Tito.

So we should belive R-41 and some flags that were used during the break-up of Yugoslavia rather than those protected by the Government of SFR Yugoslavia when it was most stable and prosperous, when it was governed by the national liberation generation themselves.

Even flags of the republics of USSR had not been exactly the same, especially the blue colour on them, why should SFR Yugoslavia and its republics be any different.

Rainman 22:59, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

Please, recategorise under category:Historical flags of Croatia.

Please, recategorise under category:Historical flags of Croatia. --Veliki Kategorizator 10:35, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

Copyright tag

{{Editprotected}} Please, change the copyright tag to {{PD-Croatia-exempt}} as it was moved to create new PD-Croatia tag for expired copyright. --Botev 04:18, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

Done. giggy _(:O) 04:48, 26 May 2008 (UTC)