File talk:Flag of Russia (1991–1993).svg

именно это настоящий флаг России и никто не менял цвета в 1993.

Менял, менял. В АИ отражено. --Seryo93 (talk) 09:49, 29 September 2015 (UTC)

Про "настоящий флаг" ответил в рувики. --Seryo93 (talk) 10:15, 29 September 2015 (UTC)

Надёжность фото Верховного Совета как источника

Вряд ли оттенки флага 1991—1993 годов полностью идентичны сегодняшним, но при этом я думаю, что их не следует реконструировать именно на основании этой фотографии, так как цвета на ней не выглядят натуральными. Обратите внимание на небо и особенно на ёлки, словно цвета на плёнке слегка искажены в сторону голубо-бирюзового. В других источниках другие цвета – более близкие к современным цветам образца 1993 года:

• современное фото флага, поднятого над Кремлём 25 декабря 1991 года;
• видео 1992 года, где он развевается над Кремлём (8:04);
• флаг в зале Конституционного суда в 1992 году (9:37);
• он же, но на фото (цветопередача вряд ли идеальная, но всё же);
• снова он;
• Валерий Зорькин на фоне этого флага
• флаг над Кремлём в канун Нового года;
• фото с подписания Федеративного договора 1992 года;
• фото из Госдумы (начало 1994 г.)

Цвета

@Loic26Так что я знаю, что гласит закон, но фотографические свидетельства флага в этот период довольно убедительны в том, что он был синим, используемым сегодня, а слово "лазурь" использовалось как поэтическое название синего цвета. Я уже загрузил светло-голубой флаг в виде отдельного файла. Я думаю, что в видеоролике Песетца об этом рассказано лучше, чем я мог бы. NorthTension (talk) 15:42, 20 April 2023 (UTC)

Hey @Achim55 can I at least get a reversion back to my file? I and that other guy posted I think are enough sources (vexillographia.ru backs us up too) in our favor; the other lighter colored file is already re-uploaded by me so right now there's two duplicate files for whats pretty much already a solved issue. NorthTension (talk) 18:03, 21 April 2023 (UTC)

@Achim55you're the best, thank you NorthTension (talk) 20:43, 21 April 2023 (UTC)

Code cleanup

{{Edit request}}

I suggest removing the unnecessary code in the SVG file, it's currently at 1 KB but can be reduced to as small as 198 bytes with a source code like this:

<svg xmlns="http://www.w3.org/2000/svg" width="1200" height="600"><path fill="#d52b1e" d="M0 0h1200v600H0z"/><path fill="#0039a6" d="M0 0h1200v400H0z"/><path fill="#fff" d="M0 0h1200v200H0z"/></svg>

Let me know if anyone agrees to this, thanks. Colohisto (talk) 05:03, 2 May 2023 (UTC)

 Not done It would seem as the filesize already has been reduced.Jonteemil (talk) 17:57, 25 August 2023 (UTC)

Colors of the 1991-1993 Flag

There seems to be a debate on which "correct" colors were used in the State Flag of Russia used between 1991 to 1993. The official law used the word "Azure" in the description, which is a lighter shade of blue, similar to cyan. In 1992, there was a special constitutional commission to work on the new constitution, which was created one year later in 1993. There were specific requests to the commission to specify the definition of the State Flag since it was completely different from the Tsarist definition of the Tri-color flag used before the 1917 Revolution. They decided on changing the definition to the Tsarist definition by removing the color "Azure" and replacing it with the color "Blue" and changing the ratio of the flag from 1:2 to 2:3, since 1:2 was an usually elongated or "stretched" ratio not previously used.[1]https://books.google.ru/books?id=YhbqltvyX3cC&pg=PA1077#v=onepage&q&f=false

The colors specified in the law at the time were the official colors, period.

Before computers were mainstream and digital printing methods of flags were widely used, there was no official Pantone or RGB codes enshrined in the law at the time, since this technology was relatively new. None the less, people who are insistent on the colors being officially blue" and not "azure" are basing this assumption on archival footage or pictures. I would like to iterate, there has always been inconsistencies in flag manufacturing throughout history. Private flag companies have always produced their own versions of official government flags and most don't care enough to find the exact specifications. Even today you can find such inconsistencies, so we should not be basing this as fact. There are plenty of pictures of 1991 flag with azure, as are there with the traditional blue. Rustycaddy17 (talk) 02:24, 23 May 2023 (UTC)

you know that i literally made another file with the light blue, right? you just reverted a file that was locked by a mod back to a now redundant and identitcal form NorthTension (talk) 07:18, 24 May 2023 (UTC)

You should have created an alternative file with the dark blue edit rather than replace this file. In fact, this light blue version has been in use for over 13 years. There are dozens of articles and hundreds of pages using this current file across multiple wikis. Also, YouTube is not a proper source, we have already established a legal decree is more valid than the opinion of someone on YouTube. Rustycaddy17 (talk) 08:21, 26 May 2023 (UTC)

id take the opinion of a youtuber who sources his arguments alongside the photographic evidence posted earlier on this talk page backing me up over a vaguely phrased decree, which is interpreted a specific way as seen in the prior sources. idk but im gonna trust the russians on interpreting their own heraldic law and history here, especially when it actually, once again,agrees with me.

also, it doesnt matter if its been on the internet for longer? like at all? do you not remember the austria-hungary national flag debate or how the fengtian clique had a flag from an entirely different group associated with it because of a mistake made almost 20 years prior? NorthTension (talk) 10:06, 26 May 2023 (UTC)

Again, this is merely an opinion and not an objective fact. Your YouTuber who based his "source" on historical pictures cherry picked the ones suited to fit his argument. There are plenty of pictures of the azure colored flag being used, as there are dark blue. The official description was enshrined in law, and there is a reason why they changed the color from azure to blue in 1993. How is this so hard to understand?

Also, Russian para-military and military patches officially used the azure colored flag on their patches in the 1990s.

Flag patch worn by Internal Troops

President Medvedev wearing the old flag in 2009

Rustycaddy17 (talk) 02:37, 27 May 2023 (UTC)

he's got more than just images if you checked his description, he's got several sources backing up what he's saying in the video. again, i kept the light blue flag as an alternative file because it was the alternative version used, the file still exists and i don't understand what the issue here is. also why would it matter if medvedev is wearing the flag patch with the lighter color if the picture is from 2009? edit: also i can get into contact with victor lomantsov and ask him if he has any more sources, but his site and his posts on FOTW both back up my claims NorthTension (talk) 02:57, 27 May 2023 (UTC)

I understand what you're trying to say, de facto the color was blue, since many government officials used this shade than the one defined in the law. But lomantsov's claims that they were using heraldic terminology to describe the colors of red as "scarlet" and blue as "azure" don't make any sense to me honestly. Heraldry was abolished after the 1917 October Revolution and it became a defunct practice during Soviet rule, being taught only in the context of historical sciences. Heraldry was seen as a vestige of monarchism, since it was widely used by monarchs throughout Europe. I don't think the communist party members that defined the description of the flag in 1991 were devout heraldists using fancy words. It was likely just a mistake, a mistake which was clearly causing enough of an issue for it to be changed two years later, hence why some flags during the time period appeared with lighter shades of blue.

The reason why you shouldn't have changed this file is because it's used across multiple wikis and articles. Not everyone agrees with this change, so now you're basically forcing editors to edit each individual article and replace this current file with the alternative you created. And where was the consensus on making this change? Its been accepted as a fact for over 13 years. Recall, the same situation happened to the Russian Navy's "Saint Andrew" flag in 1992. It used a lighter shade of blue (голубым), until it was changed in December of 2000 to use a regular shade of blue (синим). Rustycaddy17 (talk) 05:51, 27 May 2023 (UTC)

okay so you say that part of lomantsov's claim doesnt make sense to you yet you start that earlier reply with "this is merely an opinion and not an objective fact"? and "[n]ot everyone agrees with this change, so now you're basically forcing editors to edit each individual article and replace this current file with the alternative you created", nobody is forced to do anything. this is practically a non issue nobody bar about six people in the file history had an issue with: three are good faith editors, yourself included, one is a vandal, and two have had no contributions before or since. im appealing to authority here, but lomantsov is literally *the guy* for anything regarding russian vexillology, if anybody would know any of these specifics its him; like i said i can email him if you want but im trusting the sources i and that other guy without the signature used NorthTension (talk) 10:19, 27 May 2023 (UTC)

Take a look at this archival photo of the azure flag flying above the Kremlin Presidium building, circa November 1991.[2][3] This is direct evidence that they used the lighter shade of blue! Rustycaddy17 (talk) 22:48, 27 May 2023 (UTC)

yes they flew the lighter shade of blue on the kremlin, yet also used the darker shade, yet as you can see in the discussion at the very top of the page the darker shade was also used in official government purposes too like here and here, whoever OP did get the thing about the Kremlin wrong. if we had an infobox for yeltsin's russia i'd put both in as both were legally correct, but the intent was to return to the old pre-communist colors NorthTension (talk) 07:58, 28 May 2023 (UTC)

I'd go with the one over the Kremlin since it being on the most important flagpole flying over the most important building in the country seems to imply that it is more "official" than the others. – Illegitimate Barrister (talk • contribs), 22:21, 7 June 2023 (UTC)

and not the ones at the constitutional court or behind yeltsin at that international meeting? NorthTension (talk) 22:33, 7 June 2023 (UTC)

No. The most important flagpole in the country trumps some random room in some obscure office building. – Illegitimate Barrister (talk • contribs), 17:51, 8 June 2023 (UTC)

how do the constitutional court or wherever those diplomatic summits were count as "obscure office buildings"? NorthTension (talk) 18:11, 8 June 2023 (UTC)

What do you think of this photo https://riamediabank.ru/media/446243.html? The Supreme Soviet of Russia was also one of the most important places. FlorianH76 (talk) 07:52, 9 June 2023 (UTC)

Look at the flag on the Congress of People's Deputies of Russia https://riamediabank.ru/media/8243073.html. It was the supreme government institution back then. FlorianH76 (talk) 08:05, 9 June 2023 (UTC)

During the demonstrations in 1992 people also usually used the flag here https://riamediabank.ru/media/3054845.html or here https://riamediabank.ru/media/3054841.html. FlorianH76 (talk) 08:12, 9 June 2023 (UTC)

@FlorianH76 im getting errors on all ot those links NorthTension (talk) 13:29, 9 June 2023 (UTC)

Probably it depends on your IP address region. FlorianH76 (talk) 18:10, 9 June 2023 (UTC)

for some reason it just wasnt working on mobile but it is on desktop NorthTension (talk) 19:41, 9 June 2023 (UTC)

@Illegitimate Barrister So what do you think of photos which I mentioned above? FlorianH76 (talk) 15:40, 21 June 2023 (UTC)

I'll just point out that as I understand it, the words we're translating "azure" and "scarlet" have often been used as archaic/poetic ways of referring to the colours blue and red in general, not to specific shades of blue and red. (Compare with the use of the English word "azure" in English heraldry.) Without further sources, it's a bit of a stretch to interpret either the pre-1993 legal definition as giving specific shades or the change to more prosaic terms in 1993 as being about changing the shades, rather than about word choice. I don't have any comments on the use of photos of different flags to choose the best shades for the illustration here, but I think it's quite reasonable to say that one shade isn't any more "correct" than the other. (For what it's worth, approaches to standardising colours might have been advanced by recent technology, but it's standards have been documented in bureaucratic military contexts for centuries - the issue isn't whether it's been possible to standardise flag colours, it's that even when it is possible, it isn't alwys done, because that's not an important part of how flags work.) JPD (talk) 05:44, 9 September 2023 (UTC)

I was wrong - I do have some comments about using photographs to reach the decision. There were a couple of photos linked of a flag flying above the Kremlin in similar light conditions in Nov and early Dec 1991. The blue looks pretty light. I don't think it's quite so light if we go forward to when the Soviet Union had actually folded: 27 Dec, 1 Jan, 1993, or on 27 Dec in Yeltsin's first day in the Kremlin office. Some of the differences are to do with the lighting conditions, some might be because the flags intended to be the same shade but newer and less faded, or maybe the flags were different because (as in fairly normal) the shade wasn't considered precisely specified or the push to go back to the "tsarist colours" had already begun. Whichever interpretation you use, it's pretty clear that the Kremlin flag photos do not support the idea that the 1991-1993 flag description was consistently officially interpreted as a particularly light "azure" for the whole time it was legally in force. JPD (talk) 13:37, 9 September 2023 (UTC)

The use of a lighter shade of blue was not isolated to just the Russian flag. The ensign of the Russian Navy also used a lighter shade of blue from 1992 until 2000 when it was changed to the traditional dark blue. I have to disagree with the idea that they were using "poetic" words because Heraldry is a separate science to Vexillology. Rustycaddy17 (talk) 02:16, 15 September 2023 (UTC)

rusty in the several months since this argument even started did you ever watch the video with all the sources laid out in it? NorthTension (talk) 02:38, 15 September 2023 (UTC)

Here is a cover of the Constitution of Russia in 1992 File:Обложка Конституции РФ 1992.png. Blue colour. FlorianH76 (talk) 21:33, 2 November 2023 (UTC)

yeah thats regular russian blue NorthTension (talk) 01:07, 3 November 2023 (UTC)