File talk:Indo-European Language Family Branches in Eurasia.png

From Wikimedia Commons, the free media repository
Jump to navigation Jump to search

Separate Languages[edit]

Request: Separate the Indic and Iranic language families and the Baltic and Slavic languages.

It looks too weird to me when they are combined, I want the languages to be separated. Gamerknowitall (talk) 23:59, 25 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Changes to Albania and Kosovo[edit]

No non-Greek source (Albanian census or otherwise) will claim Greek majorities in Saranda, Borsh, Gjirokaster, Libohova, Permet, Korca, Pustec, and Pogradec. Let's keep things realistic here. Try reading the Wiki articles for those pages for starters, do some background reading. None of those articles claim Greek majorities, so it's ridiculous for this map to have them. Hilariously enough, Pustec is slavic majority yet you show it as Greek, clearly you don't know much about Albania's demographics. Also, your map for North Kosovo is simply wrong. It should protrude to the southwest, not the southeast. It looks like you've included Albanian-majority Besiana as Serb but not Serb-majority Zubin Potok. And there are actually still Chams in Northwestern Greece, still speaking Albanian, despite being Orthodox and highly assimilated. Djks1 (talk)

Additionally, the Albanian presence in Macedonia is incorrect (greater presence in the north and less in the southwest around Ohrid & Struga), the Albanians are a majority in parts of Montenegro and in Presheva, the Slavs are a majority in Gora and several enclaves in Kosovo, and in Pustec, and the Greek majority in Albania is closer to this:
https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Greeks_in_Albania
Than what is being claimed, with those %s on the map being lower than the true values due to ethnic Greeks boycotting the census but the area of presence being the pretty much the same. If someone's going to claim that the Greeks are a majority in a large chunk of southern Albania beyond the aforementioned map, including several major Albanian cities like Gjirokaster and Pogradec, and even in the south-east and Korca, we're gonna need some sources, as most people know that's not true. Djks1 (talk)
To add to that, it seems that this recent claim is based on this map:
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/43/Albania_minorities.png/316px-Albania_minorities.png
This map is not claiming majorities in the areas depicted, it is showing the presence of minority groups. No one would be silly enough to claim Shkoder is Slavic majority, or Vlora is Aromanian majority. And we know for beyond a fact that Konispol is a Cham majority town, one of their last towns, yet the recent changes erase the Cham linguistic minority. Remember, "Do not revert to version that erases many linguistic minorities". Djks1 (talk)
SOFIXIT, then, rather than reverting to the old, even-wronger version which shows all of Albania and Kosovo as homogenously Albanian with no areas that speak anything other than Albanian even as a minority language. There are certainly far more Greeks speaking Greek in Northern Epirus today than the few dozen Cham Albanians still living south of the border, but your version of the map gives the exact opposite impression.
Don't look at me re: Albanians in Macedonia and Montenegro; those boundaries were drawn in by the user who originally created the map.
You're citing a WP fork? Really? Also, that map still supports showing approximately the southern half of Northern Epirus as Greek-majority (once we remember to include a multiplier to compensate for the census's massive undercounting of Greeks).
There certainly are indeed Chams remaining - in Albania (Konispol is at the southern tip of Albania). Essentially the entire population of Chams in Greece was expelled to Albania at the end of World War II, and the few dozen remaining are nowhere near significant enough to warrant minority dots on the map.
Also, if your only problems with my edits to the map are in the southern Balkans, why are you reverting all the changes everywhere on the map, even outside the southern Balkans, instead of simply pasting in the southern Balkans from a prior version of the map and leaving the other corrections in place? Whoop whoop pull up Bitching Betty ⚧️ Averted crashes 21:13, 22 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Err I never "looked at you" to change everything stated, just making observations. If you're going to make a change it has to be accurate. Make the changes to the undisputed areas, e.g. in Bulgaria, instead of making blatantly wrong changes. I don't have the software to edit this. Again, you failed to present a source for your claims re Greeks in southern Albania whilst laughing at sourced wikipedia articles that prove the opposite of what you said. You say "There certainly are indeed Chams remaining - in Albania (Konispol is at the southern tip of Albania)." yet did not include this in your changes, as you presented Konispol as Greek majority, so I guess you were either unaware of that or just didn't care. In fact you presented quite a number of areas as Greek majority despite them not having a Greek presence, such as the Prespa region.
"but your version of the map gives the exact opposite impression" you mean the version that existed before you made incorrect changes.
The census map I presented does not show Greeks being present in southeastern Albania actually. The minority zone map does not suggest Greeks are a majority in the areas present, so again you are either lying or misinterpreting data. You are also struggling to read what I wrote, as that same map, if it were suggesting majorities in the areas shown, would mean that Vlora is Aromanian majority and Shkoder is Slav majority, both of which are obviously false. You claim Greeks were undercounted (true) - but by how much? If Greeks were indeed such a huge chunk of southern Albania you'd think their political parties would get more than 4% of the vote (if that). Again, can you prove your claims? Can you present sources contradicting wikipedia articles on these specific regions and towns that have detailed ethnic break-downs? I think not. I have already given you (twice) a list of towns in southern Albania with wikipedia citations stating that they are not Greek majority but that you have depicted as such.
"few dozen Cham Albanians" again this is blatantly false, you are showing your surface level knowledge on the subject, as shown by quoting an article you read once about the expulsion of the Chams. Cham Albanians are present in far greater numbers but have been forcibly converted to Orthodoxy and the Greek govt, unlike the Albanian, refuses to include ethnicity on the census so we can't say how many there are for sure. I'm not gonna fight you on the Cham presence in Greece, as their presence is hugely suppressed. I will revert the inaccurate, false changes you've made though, and refer you to another wikipedia article:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cham_Albanians
in which there are citations for the huge Cham presence in Greece.
"Also, if your only problems with my edits to the map are in the southern Balkans, why are you reverting all the changes" The onus is on you to make accurate changes, and not on others to fix your errors. That's how wikipedia works, the status quote triumphs. Djks1 (talk)
Fine, toning down the Greek-majority area of Northern Epirus, and adding the Slavic-majority chunk of SE Albania and indications of Albanians in SE Montenegro.
Also, re:Konispol, while the village itself is majority-Albanian, it's too small to resolve on the map, so this tiny local majority ends up contributing to the Albanian minority dots in its region. Whoop whoop pull up Bitching Betty ⚧️ Averted crashes 03:56, 27 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
This map is indeed an improvement, but still has inaccuracies. Saranda is majority Albanian, not Greek. The area to the northwest of Saranda, e.g. Himara, has a Greek minority (dots) and some majorities too. The Greek population in the Korca region is miniscule, I wouldn't even dot it. The Cham minority, which has citations for being at 40,000, has been eliminated - should leave the previous dots as is. The Slav majority in Pustec has been exaggerated. These maps show the Slav and Greek minorites more accurately:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minorities_of_Albania#/media/File:Albania_majority_ethnicity_2011_census.PNG
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minorities_of_Albania#/media/File:AlbaniaTraditionalCommunitiesByLanguageAndReligion.png
The latter map admittedly has a few exaggerations, whilst the former is an undercount - the truth lies between these two maps.
It should be noted that the areas of Tuzi, Ulqin, and parts of the Plav/Gucia region in Montenegro are Albanian majority. But I don't expect you to edit that. Djks1 (talk) 13:32, 27 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Basically - the towns of Saranda, Delvina, Gjirokaster, Libohova, and Leskovik are near the ethnic border but on the Albanian side (with Saranda being mixed), as confirmed by the latter (more aggressive) map, which actually appears to be pretty accurate on a second viewing. The Greek majority areas are almost exclusively villages to the south of these towns, with a rural salient between Libohova and Leskovik, plus the exclaves of Himara (mixed) and Dhermi. Djks1 (talk) 13:41, 27 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
There is no "Cham minority of 40,000". These are irredentist fantasies. You haven't provided a single source for the "Cham minority of 40,000". If such sources exist, it is on you to post them here. Don't lazily point us to wikipedia articles. The truth is that any remaining Orthodox chams in thesprotia have come under intense assimilatory pressure in the last 80 years, and Albanian speech in the area is nonexistent. This is why not a single study has been able to find any. Khirurg (talk) 04:32, 29 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Hahaha, you're funny when you're angry. Eat a snickers. It's cited on the wikipedia article "Cham Albanians". I guess you were too lazy to check.
"The truth is that any remaining Orthodox chams in thesprotia have come under intense assimilatory pressure in the last 80 years" I said this already, read above. It's irrelevant though. Next sentence is relevant: "Albanian speech in the area is nonexistent" this is in fact false, a quick google search / visit to the area will show otherwise, but I'm sure you wish it'd be true. "This is why not a single study has been able to find any" maybe in your mind, this is true, but not in the real world / outside of Greece. It's funny, even tourists report hearing people speak Albanian and asking these """Greeks""" why they speak Albanian at home. The poor guys are so brainwashed they don't even know why - they think they're Greeks. It's sad really. Furthermore:
  • Wikipedia article Chameria#Orthodox Christians has citations to prove you wrong. I recommend doing a little reading before posting your angry comments here.
But anyway, you're derailing the discussion here, which is mainly around the inaccuracies of the map in southern Albania. The map already showed the presence of Cham Albanian minority before it was incorrectly edited. Btw, @Whoop whoop pull up, if you do not plan on correcting those errors I'll have to revert to the previously accepted version - which I don't want to do, so let me know. I recommend you correct or revert the changes around Albania specifically as I have no objection to your changes elsewhere. Djks1 (talk) 16:34, 1 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@Whoop whoop pull up: This may be of some help, it's based on this map (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minorities_of_Albania#/media/File:AlbaniaTraditionalCommunitiesByLanguageAndReligion.png), I'm afraid I can't edit in inkscape. If you open image in new tab and zoom in it should be clear.
Fixed. Whoop whoop pull up Bitching Betty ⚧️ Averted crashes 18:36, 1 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@Whoop whoop pull up: I may be mistaken, but on my end, it looks the same. 85.255.237.27 18:47, 1 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Did you open the full-resolution version or just look at the thumbnail? Most of the fixes require zooming in to become visible. Whoop whoop pull up Bitching Betty ⚧️ Averted crashes 18:51, 1 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I see it now, thanks. 85.255.237.27 20:57, 1 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@Whoop whoop pull up: : Great work overall, but there are a few minor issues with the new version. 1) There are no Albanian speakers in S. Peloponnese (the three southernmost dots) or in Aitoloakarnania (west greece), 2) there are no Aromanian speakers in Boetia, Mount Pelion, and East Macedonia (east of Thessaloniki), 3) the Aromanian speakers NW of Thessaloniki are actually Slavic speakers, 4) there are more Serbian speakers in N Kosovo as well as ιν Gracanica and Strpce (see here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kosovo_Serbs#/media/File:Zajednica_srpskih_opstina.png), 6) I think there are more Albanian speakers in NW North Macedonia, 7) fewer Romanian speakers in E Serbia, and 8) there are some Greek speakers in Pontus, as shown in this map [1]. The wild claims by Djks1 about "40,000" Albanian speakers in Epirus and the accompanying unsubstantiated claims about "tourists" need not be taken seriously, together with the threats to revert (goes without saying). Khirurg (talk) 22:36, 2 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@Khirurg: I did not "threaten" anything, I simply stated I would revert to the previously accepted revision if the mistakes were not reversed. They were reversed, problem solved. Good job beating a dead horse. I already cited my claims regarding the Cham presence in Greece, try reading harder.
From the Cham Albanian wiki article: "In 1985, the Albanian population of Epirus, including Chameria and two villages in Konitsa was estimated 30,000.[244] In 2002, according to author Miranda Vickers, in Chameria, the Orthodox Albanian population was estimated at 40,000."
"Albanian is still spoken by a minority of inhabitants in Igoumenitsa.[246] According to Ethnologue, Albanian language is spoken by about 10,000 Albanians in Epirus and the village of Lechovo, in Florina.[247]"
From the Chameria wiki article: "According to a study by the Euromosaic project of the European Union, Albanian speaking communities live along the border with Albania in Thesprotia prefecture, the northern part of the Preveza prefecture in the region called Thesprotiko, and a few villages in Ioannina regional unit.[78] The Arvanite dialect is still spoken by a minority of inhabitants in Igoumenitsa.[79] In northern Preveza prefecture, those communities also include the region of Fanari,[80] in villages such as Ammoudia[81] and Agia.[82]"
"Today, these Orthodox Albanian speaking communities refer to themselves as Arvanites in the Greek language and self-identify as Greeks, like the Arvanite communities in southern Greece.[84] They refer to their language in Greek as Arvanitika and when conversing in Albanian as Shqip.[85][86] In contrast with the Arvanites, some have retained a distinct linguistic [87] and ethnic identity, but also an Albanian national identity.[88][dubious – discuss] In the presence of foreigners there is a stronger reluctance amongst Orthodox Albanian speakers to speak Albanian, compared to the Arvanites in other parts of Greece.[89] A reluctance has been also noticed for those who still see themselves as Chams to declare themselves as such.[90] Researcher Tom Winnifirth concluded that it was impossible to find Albanian speakers in the main towns of the region assuming that there may be a number in some villages inland.[91] and concluded in later years that Albanian had "virtually disappeared" in the region.[92] According to Ethnologue, the Albanian speaking population of Greek Epirus and Greek Western Macedonia number 10,000.[93] According to the author Miranda Vickers, Orthodox Chams today are approximately 40,000.[94] Amongst some Greek Arvanites like those in the village of Kastri near Igoumentisa, there has been a revival in folklore, in particular in the performance of "Arvanitic wedding".[95]"
So yes, the 40,000 claim SHOULD be taken seriously, despite what this person says. It is cited.
Regardless of whether they are Muslim or Orthodox, there indeed Albanian speakers in the region, which is what the map is about, and so naturally should be depicted in this map. I am unsure what khirung's objection is here to cited wikipedia articles, I can only assume he has a problem with the idea of an Albanian prescence in Greece. He/she point to my half-joking mention of tourists and yet ignores everything else. Typical. 148.252.129.106 20:10, 3 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The Albanians in Macedonia map should look like this:
https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Albanians_in_North_Macedonia.jpg
And yes, khirung is correct regarding the Serb prescence in Kosova being understated - namely as dots outside of North Kosovo, your North Kosovo border looks roughly correct to me. 148.252.129.106 20:16, 3 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Lechovo wiki article: "Lechovo had 1,194 inhabitants in 1981.[11] In fieldwork done by Riki Van Boeschoten in late 1993, Lechovo was populated by Arvanites.[11] Arvanitika (close to Albanian) was spoken in the village by people over 30 in public and private settings.[11] Children understood the language, but mostly did not use it.[11] Aromanian was spoken by people over 60, mainly in private.[11] In the early 2000s, the Tosk Albanian dialect is often spoken by village elders.[12]"
Albanian language wiki article: "Albanian is also spoken by a minority in Greece, specifically in the Thesprotia and Preveza regional units and in a few villages in Ioannina and Florina regional units in Greece.[27]" — Preceding unsigned comment was added by 148.252.129.106 (talk) 00:53, 4 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment: For the linguistic situation of Albania, following map is the most accurate one and is based on a long series of sources: [2]. For Greece, for the same reasons, this map is currently the most accurate one: [3]. For more in detail precision in the region of Greek Macedonia (I didn't do it yet), this map should be used as well:[4]. For Kosovo, Montenegro and North Macedonia, the national censuses should be enough. Ahmet Q. (talk) 14:31, 13 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Also, if we were to exclude the Albanian presence from Chameria, we should evidently do the same for the Greeks in Pontus. Ahmet Q. (talk) 17:58, 13 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Absolutely not. The map you are using for Greece is outdated, most of those minority languages are dead or dying. For example, Arvanitika in the western Peloponnese is long gone unless you can produce a source which shows that it's still spoken there, which I doubt. Ditto for Arvanitika inside Athens - total nonsense.For Greek Macedonia, Slavic is only spoken in far NW - nowhere East of Thessaloniki. The map you are using as a template shows "traditional use of languages", but does not reflect the reality on the ground. If you want to use "traditional" usage, we can show tradiitonal usage of Greece within Albania, which I don't think you would like (based on this map [5]). Khirurg (talk) 02:43, 17 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I hope this is a joke, the map you linked is probably the most inaccurate one of them all. It is based on a Greek ethnographic map of the early 20th century and on an extremely oversimplified atlas map which claims Greek majority in all of southern Albania which needless to say is completely fringe rhetoric. If you believe that this map is worth inclusion then I will have to ask you to read what Wikipedia's guidelines say about what reliable sources are before editing again on this website. But thanks for bringing this map to my attention, it should definitely be discussed and it most likely be removed from the article due to its incredibility. As for the map of Greece which you claim to be outdated, it simply isn't. It is based on a series of actual reliable sources and it is the best candidate for this map. Also considering that Greece does not uphold censuses about its population's ethnicity, this is the best we can get. By the way, the map I previously linked of Albania is already a map depicting the tradition presences of ethnic groups and it overestimates the Greek presence in southern Albania. Anything over those boundaries is out of the question. Ahmet Q. (talk) 09:36, 18 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

N Epirus and S Macedonia[edit]

Ahmet Q. is now pushing a map version that shrinks the Greek-speaking area in Northern Epirus beyond the consensus boundaries agreed upon in the above section, and adds dots for the medieval Slavic-speaking minority in South Macedonia, without having established consensus on the talkpage for these major changes, while claiming that the consensus version is "POV pushing". Given the contentiousness of linguistic boundaries in the Southern Balkans, they should really've discussed it first, and I'll be reverting back to the consensus version until a new consensus can be established. Whoop whoop pull up Bitching Betty ⚧️ Averted crashes 02:50, 30 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

What consensus, where exactly did you see anything close to a consensus? I would advise you to actually read what has been written in the above discussion before blindly reverting. Furthermore, you just referred to the ethnic presence of Slavs in Greek Macedonia as medieval (???). I hope this is a bad joke. Also, can you explain why you are removing the Albanian presence from North Macedonia, Montenegro and Serbia? Why are you overexaggerating the presence of Greeks in southern Albania, when the sources clearly show that nothing of the sort is close to reality? Why are you depicting French-speaking regions of Belgium as Flemish? This only demonstrate that you either have extremely limited knowledge about the subject or that you are deliberately POV-pushing. And for your information, if no consensus is achieved, it is the stable version of the image (before your edits) where we will be reverting to. Ahmet Q. (talk) 08:33, 9 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
If you'd like to actually read the above discussion, you'll see that the version in my edit was agreed upon as best representing the actual linguistic boundaries in question (taking into account the need to adjust the numbers from the official census to compensate for the massive undercounting of Greek speakers in N Epirus). Additionally, I'm not removing the aforementioned Albanian presence, as the areas of Serbia/N. Macedonia/Montenegro that have Albanian-speaking populations have Albanian coloring or Albanian-colored minority dots (depending on whether the Albanian-speaking population is the local majority or not). Whoop whoop pull up Bitching Betty ⚧️ Averted crashes 07:33, 28 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Color swap[edit]

In a thumbnail, the yellow is very hard to see against the white, and likewise the orange against the red. I suggest swapping yellow with purple, and orange with light-blue. Jnestorius (talk) 20:29, 16 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Nargorno-Karabakh[edit]

Should it be edited out perhaps? 219.89.209.87 11:53, 23 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Retrieved from "https://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=File_talk:Indo-European_Language_Family_Branches_in_Eurasia.png&oldid=824444753"