File talk:Lincolnatpeace2.jpg

Lincoln's mortician reported shaving Lincoln all except a tuft on his chin. This photo shows Lincoln with more hair than that. Perhaps the photo was shot before the embalming. In that case, there should be dark circles under his eyes because the shock of the bullet's impact fractured both orbits. Rklawton 22:02, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

Image:Abraham Lincoln half length seated, April 10, 1865.jpg taken five days before his death clearly shows Lincoln does not have a beard. This image shows him with a beard. In addition to the testimony of his mortician (cited above), we can see that this photo is clearly a hoax and should be labeled as such. Rklawton 17:13, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

The only hoax is the the one being purpetrated upon us by you Rklawson, for you have not the slightest idea what you are talking about, The Lincoln picture half length seated clearly shows he did have a beard, and it is evident that some photo retouching was done by the photographer to give him a cleaner look with the look of a goatee!

IF YOU LOOK CLOSELY ON THE RIGHT SIDE OF HIS FACE AS APPOSSED TO HIS LEFT SIDE....YOU CAN CLEARLY STILL SEE HIS FULL BEARD ON THE RIGHT SIDE OF HIS FACE SHOWING! (Cathytreks 05:32, 18 May 2006 (UTC))

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I have the book by Ostendorf on Lincoln which proves entirely otherwise and has been authenticated by the photgraphers own family as authentic and that is that! (Cathytreks 05:13, 18 May 2006 (UTC))

Deleted content

The following content was deleted by a user contending that this was her own, "private" page (see below).

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There he (rklawson) goes again!, first condeming, and then attacking without even a look at the facts!, and my reason for stating such as "private"...twisting my own words against me out of sheer spite and hate towards me in spite of my numerous attempts to clearify the meaning of what was said due to an ill chosen word he has harped on this and made a mnt out of a mole hill, then runs and tattles on me like a child would who had his toy taken away! (Cathytreks 05:13, 18 May 2006 (UTC))

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Given that a photo taken of Lincoln just five days before his assassination shows him without a beard (just a tuft on his chin), it's obvious that this isn't an image of Lincoln after his death. See: Image:Abraham Lincoln half length seated, April 10, 1865.jpg. See also: Image:Lincoln - composite.JPG. Rklawton 17:04, 17 May 2006 (UTC)

===please wont u stop editing my private Lincoln photo page?=== (emphasis added)

What gives you the right to change my meaning AS here ABOVE?????, LADIES AND GENTLEMEN....all that bit about being "private" was an accedental typo that I mistakenly put in!, all that was meant was that it was I who had placed the article in the wikipeadea to begin with, RKLAWSOM seem's to delight in twisting the meaning and discrediting the scholarly work that I refered to no matter what the truth is as long as it discredits me and the picture....how sad...how immature...how wrong! (Cathytreks 05:00, 18 May 2006 (UTC))

I am saddened by this as I am a family friend of the surviving John B. Bachelder family members , I live only 2 miles from where the photographer, the man who too the death photo, who is buried in Nottingham N.H., (I am the caretaker of the small family cemetary there in fact) Perhaps you seemingly missed the fact that it was the Bachelder family themselves who reported that John retouched the photo of Lincoln in his beard area itself, so that he would look more "himself"...I WOULD ask of you to read THE BOOK done with the co-operation of the Bachelder family itself regarding the authentic history of the photograph..it is not a hoax, nor a fake, it was taken in a hurry by Bachelder , as a reference photo only...for a future painting he colaberated on with another artist of the period, Alonzo Chappel.

Please Robert?, wont you at the least check me out on this?, you will see my honesty..sorry about our previous squabbles...and I promise that I will be more considerate of you, Sir, and your feelings. BEST REGARDS...REALLY! Cathy (Cathytreks 16:16, 17 May 2006 (UTC))

OK, so I read the book. Ostendorf reports the photo was retouched. However, nowhere in the book does it state: "the Bachelder family themselves ... reported that John retouched the photo of Lincoln in his beard area itself, so that he would look more 'himself'..." as you wrote above. I took you up on your challenge, and now I can report that you made this up yourself. Rklawton 20:33, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

It appears that this user's rather convenient new claim of "photo retouching" is unverifiable. The image itself comes from her own research. Even the primary source has a disclaimer regarding the image's authenticity. Rklawton 17:04, 17 May 2006 (UTC)

Now he is calling me a liar!. The authenticity of it is ENTIRELY verifiable and easy to find, please stop lying about this fact! GET THE BOOK!..ITS ALL IN THERE, YOU SEEM TO BE TWISTING MY WORDS AND THE TRUTH TO DISCREDIT BOTH ME AND THE PHOTOGRAPH!

(Cathytreks 05:00, 18 May 2006 (UTC))

All one need do is read the book by lincoln scholar Ostendorf's book with John Bachelders own family verifying its authenticity...this should qwell any further arguments against it.

THE IMAGE IS THAT OF LINCOLN AND THAT IT WAS TAKEN BY BACHELDER ON APRIL 16TH 1865, AT THE WHITE HOUSE AS THE PRESIDENT WAS BEING EMBALMED AND MADE UP TO LOOK AS HE DID, NOTE THE EYES, GLAZED OPEN, AND THE DETAIL THAT WOULD CLEARLY BE NOT AVALIBLE IN ANYTHING OTHER THAN A PHOTOGRAPH!

Let the truth speak for itself!

I will never rest untill it is proven as the long lost death photo of President Lincoln that it plainly is, and with excellent references and a history authenticated by the scholars and Lincoln exsperts alike coming around more and more, thanks to the book by Ostendorf published.

(Cathytreks 04:48, 18 May 2006 (UTC))

I hereby assert that I am the "creator" (that means I originated this exhibition of this Lincoln Photograph article and contribution from the book and pictures in it) and/or it does not violate any third party rights. I will not back down in my efforts to see the truth revealed that the Lincoln Photograph is genuine and must be documented as such as it will be sooner or later when people bother to REALLY check the facts about it, INSTEAD OF HURLING LIES AND MAKING UP STORYS ABOUT THE DEATH PHOTO OF LINCOLN, AND MY CAMPAIN FOR THE TRUTH! (Cathytreks 05:23, 18 May 2006 (UTC))

Photo retouching

Cathy: please clarify which photo was retouched (April 10 or April 15/16). Yesterday you wrote the Bachelder family themselves ... reported that John retouched the photo of Lincoln in his beard area itself. Today you wrote [t]he Lincoln picture half length seated clearly shows he did have a beard, and it is evident that some photo retouching was done by the photographer to give him a cleaner look with the look of a goatee! (see above for both statements). Simple logic indicates both statements can not be true, but I leave it to you to identify which one. Rklawton 00:41, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

Both statements are true, go get a copy of Lloyd Ostendorf's Lincoln book for details, So I leave it to a Lincoln Scholar to answer your question, as no matter what I say with all due respect and sincerly so you probably would not believe me or my mere words, sorry to be a pest to you, okay?

peace happiness and long life to you and yours, Cathy (Cathytreks 16:07, 19 May 2006 (UTC))

I fail to understand the sense in your answer. What did Ostendorf have to say about photo retouching these two images in his book? Don't you know? Rklawton 16:21, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

I fail to understand why you dont get the book by Ostendorf and read and see about the truth for yourself!...go to a quality historical bookstore or buy it online, I did!

I am not going to keep replying to your silly and argumentive questions any longer goodbye until you get LLoyd Ostendorf's book "LINCOLN A COMPLETE PHOTOGRAPHIC COLLECTION" MORNINGSIDE BOOKS COPYRIGHT 1998. Bye till then Chumley The Walrus!, love n' kisses, Tennessee Tuxedo and Friends!...(Cathytreks 05:49, 20 May 2006 (UTC))

You have claimed that two photos have been retouched - one to show Lincoln has no beard and one to show he has. However, you have failed to quote any source that states this is the case. It's rather odd since every photo I've seen of Lincoln from February, 1865, through April, 1865, shows Lincoln only with chin whiskers. Were these all retouched as well? Telling folks to "read the book" falls short of the mark. Remember, this image has been bounced out of every article you have tried to put it into. I would think that you would do your best to quote from the source to support your contentions. Now consider this, the last time there was a legitimate post-mortem photo of Lincoln published, it was published in a peer-reviewed scholarly journal, and it received national attention. The image you hold forth as authentic has only been published in a coffee-table book, and it has received no attention other than from your own efforts. One shouldn't wonder why we're skeptical. Rklawton 06:21, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

rotflmao

Your lack of interest in even viewing THE BOOK makes one laugh at the so called superior intellect of those who have eyes but cannot see...ears but cannot hear and the truth that is ignored on purpose!

Shalom! there is no afterlife...not even for the truth, or so it seems to be the case in your mind!, My Rabbi told me to let it go of this for awhile, at least till others read THE BOOK I have talked about...I listen to my Rabbi...good bye till then. (Cathytreks 01:06, 21 May 2006 (UTC))

Thank your Rabbi for us. Various editors here have been telling you to let this go for months now. Rklawton 02:05, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

Facts

For each of the facts tags I added to the main article, please provide a source. I found no such reference in the Ostendorf book, and I saw no other references in the article. Since I must assume edits were made in good faith, I simply tagged this un-sourced claims and await the customary citations. Rklawton 20:12, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

Oh, while I was at it, I added the correct page numbers to Ostendorf's book to the information that actually came from that book. Rklawton 20:22, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

It's been awhile, so I went ahead and cited what I could, deleted what I couldn't cite (Cathy only listed a single book as her source - not counting her own research), and added a new published source. I'll work on this some more over the summer - starting with a bit of art history for Chappel.

An Interesting Find

In looking up up our buddy Alonzo Chappel (the artist Bachelder collaborated with for the death-bed painting), I found another of his paintings, "Lincoln Reading the Emancipation Proclamation to his Cabinet." This painting contains precisely the same Lincoln profile as the one featured in this contested photo. I find this especially interesting because carte-de-vistes, the sole source of the image in question, were used to reproduce photos, engravings, and paintings. It's worth checking out [1]. For the record, here's the "Last Hours of Lincoln" painting Chappel made using this and other images [2]. The Lincoln profiles from all three images match. Rklawton 04:02, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

Reversion

The reverted information is all very interesting, but can you please cite each of your sources? And why did you remove properly cited information? Rklawton 15:59, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

IT IS OBVIOUSLY THE PHOTO I REPRINTED HERE FROM THE CONCORD HISTORICAL SOCIETY WAS THE SOURCE USED FOR THE PAINTING BY CHAPPAL AS STATED IN THE OSTENDORF BOOK. (Cathytreks 16:05, 6 June 2006 (UTC))

I don't understand how your comment answers the question I posted above. As far as your reponse goes, I think you'll see that I noted above this particular study matches at least two of Chappel's paintings.

My question in this section refers to the un-cited statements made in the photo's description. You've challenged us all to read the book, and I did. That's when I discovered that some of the information you've posted isn't in Ostendorf's book, and some of the information you've posted is contradicted by the book. For example, Ostendorf clearly states that Lincoln had only chin whiskers – the rest of his beard had been reduced to a "5-o'clock shadow" by the time of his assassination.

A week or so ago I tagged these un-cited items with a request for citation. I also went back and added citations to those statements supported by Ostendorf. With no citations forthcoming, I removed the un-cited information. I also added a new information source, but you've reverted this work. In good faith I must assume you are going to cite the information you've provided, but I fail to understand why you haven't done so. It also doesn't explain why you removed a valid, published, observation regarding the image.

Next, I'm not sure what you mean by your invitation to view the Bachelder collection. What information does it contain that would be useful here? Please also keep in mind Wikipedia's verification policy. This policy requires the work to be published. The fact that a collection is available for viewing doesn't make the work verifiable.

Finally, please always remember that name calling is also a violation of Wikipedia policy. You will have a difficult time supporting your assertions if you find yourself blocked. Rklawton 16:27, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

On a separate note, will you please provide contact information for the Concord Historical Society? I would like to see if they can point me to additional resources, and Google lists over 6,000 hits for "Concord Historical Society." Rklawton 10:25, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

Skeptics

Remember to include only sourced information. The only sources provided so far state that this image is under debate. There are no sources provided that state there are only a few skeptics, thus adding this to the image discription isn't appropriate. However, as always, I urge you to research the matter, cite appropriate sources, and add to our overall body of knowledge. Rklawton 16:15, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

Fine Rk, and how are you doing my Lincoln friend?, I am sure that the Bachelder family as primary source for the materials provided in Ostendorf in his book are appropriate sources, and the Concord Historical or New Hampshire Historical Society in Concord New Hampshire are of near galactic import, to this photograph, and the foolish debate that still envelop's it most needlessly and unfortunatly as it is authentic!

please open your eyes with an unbiased look? please?...fore that is a photograph...not an etching, my friend. (Cathytreks 20:11, 1 August 2006 (UTC))

Actually, all we ask are verifialbe, published, sources. Cite the book/article, author, and page number. It can't be all that hard. Here's a good example:

In his book Lincoln's Photographs: A Complete Album, Lloyd Ostendorf, a recognized Lincoln expert, noted: "Month by month the White House barbers clipped and trimmed until, in the final months of life, it was little more than a five-o'clock shadow" (393).

See how it's done? Rklawton 03:12, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, I see how you turn it to your point of view...the fact of the matter is that the Bachelder themselves admitted there was some retouching done by John B., no doubt to lessen the horror to a degree of the damage done,by Booth, but also to present an image that more closely resembled how MOST all americans remembered their late president in life!...and he did a fine job with the photograph considering the circimstanses and the times, and now should be be complimented for his work, not questioned 141 years later for what he did at the time with it!....I consider it to be almost sacrilige to do otherwise! (Cathytreks 15:30, 3 August 2006 (UTC))

It's not sacrilige, as Bachelder isn't a religion. Indeed, it's a matter of the scientific method to question what it is we think we know. But I see what you mean. The important thing for us to do here at Wikipedia is to track down, examine, and faithfully report these various academic discussions - whether or not we like the results. Rklawton 20:47, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

--- Oh, all is well here. Thanks for asking. It's a bit hot, but it's that way everywhere. I'm working on a textbook (again), but that should wrap up by the end of August. It pays the bills, and I really do get some work done at pool-side. On the side, I've been able to read The Portraits and History Paintings of Alonzo Chappel. Oh, and did you check out those links to the Bachelder broadsheets I sent you? I found them very interesting. For example, I didn't know Bachelder took the painting on tour and charged admission. Cheers, Rklawton 03:21, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

Hi Cathy, please post (or e-mail) contact information for "The Concord Historical Society". Thanks. Rklawton 02:51, 7 August 2006 (UTC)