File talk:Magellan Elcano Circumnavigation-es.svg

Seville or San Lúcar de Barrameda

The Port from where the expedion gone to make the voyage was NOT San Lúcar de Barrameda, was Seville. San Lúcar de Barrameda was just a spanish village where the expedition stopped a few days. You can check it where you want, that's a public fact. In San Lúcar they say that the expedition departed from that place but that's NOT true.

This map is simply wrong.--CarlosVdeHabsburgo (talk) 07:02, 2 December 2012 (UTC)

Hello CarlosVdeHabsburgo,

The circumnavigation ended in San Lúcar de Barrameda the 6 septembre 1522, because it was the last place from where the expedition leaved Spain, and the first where the arrived. And the map shows that ; it is correct. But of course, before (10 august) and after (8 septembre) the circumnavigation, they where in Seville, that's true.

Sémhur (talk) 15:47, 3 December 2012 (UTC)

The departure was from Seville on 10 august because Seville was the only city of Spain with legal capacity to make comercial travels with India in the spanish sixtheen century. Departure means the place where the boats start the travel, not the place where the float leave Spain. If we accept the second idea, the departure was from Tenerife, because Magallanes left Spain in that port, not in San Lucar. The stance of the boats in San Lucar was for logistical reasons only, you can check it everywhere. So the departure was from Seville and the return was on the same place, "main destiny". I love San Lucar, its a beautiful place with a lot of history, but that map it's wrong.--CarlosVdeHabsburgo (talk) 15:17, 14 December 2012 (UTC)

Ok, he añadido Sevilla y dejó también San Lúcar. Sémhur (talk) 17:26, 14 December 2012 (UTC)

I think Sanlúcar de Barrameda is a better option than Seville for the start point of the Magellan circunnnavigation in the map. It's well known that preparations for this expedition took place in Seville and the fleet departs this city with 237 men on 10 August 1519, by the Guadalquivir river, arriving in a short time to Sanlucar de Barrameda, the outport of Seville, located at 80 km. That was a planified and large stop for finishing travel preparations;

The fleet anchors in Sanlucar for more than a month, adding provisions and completing the crew (finally 265 men, only 234 depart from Seville). During that time, Magellan and the other captains return to Seville (in little ships) a few times for some personal issues.

Magellan made his last will and testament in Seville, on 24 August 1519. Is normal make the last will and testament two weeks later from the start date of an expedition? I think no. This proves that the expedition is not begun yet on 10 August; it began on 20 September from Sanlúcar.

Finally, on 20 september 1519, the fleet weighs anchor from Sanlúcar for the definitive travel. That date and that place are, in my humble opinion, the date and place of the real start, and so must appear in the map.

These data are supported by chronicles, mainly of Antonio Pigafetta. He served as Magellan's assistant and kept an accurate journal of the expedition. Pigafetta was one of the 18 men who returned to Sanlucar on 6 september 1522.--Armando-Martin (talk) 22:20, 15 December 2012 (UTC)

Well, as I am neither from Seville nor from San Lúcar, I really don't know where started the circumnavigation. Thus, we must return to the basics: what says secondary sources? Are they mostly says that the departure took place in San Lúcar, or in Seville? Sémhur (talk) 19:59, 16 December 2012 (UTC)

You stat saying "I think Sanlúcar de Barrameda is a better option than Seville". Magallanes-Elcano leave Seville and returns to Seville. Thats a historical fact, not a believe and Antonio Pigafetta says that too. If you THINK another thing that's ok to me. ¿What should I say? Man, were not in Bizancio talking about the virginity of Maria. San Lúcar was important in the history but for logistical reasons only, I think that even you knows that... upright=2|thumbnail|right|Elcano regresa a Sevilla. Cuadro de 1919 de Elías Salaverría Ichaurrandieta

The expedition starts in Seville because was the only city with legal capacity to start a travel like that. Is that a debate?. They returns to Seville, and they pray in a church and go to the Casa de Contratacion de Indias, where they must put in order the papers of the travel and the things that they bring. To talk about a secondary source you have a conmemorative picture of 1919 about this with the name "Elcano regresa a Sevilla" of Elías Salaverría Ichaurrandieta. Regresa means returns, so to return they have to leave first the place. --CarlosVdeHabsburgo (talk) 00:41, 17 December 2012 (UTC)

There are important historiographic sources that probes Sanlúcar is the initial and final point of the Magallanes-Elcano expedition, although Seville was the main port for commerce with America because the Casa de la Contratación, an institution similar to a modern douane, was there. The "Casa" controlled passangers, merchandises, routes and destinations; collected all colonial taxes and duties; approved all voyages of exploration and trade; licensed captains, and administered commercial law... By this reason, all ships must be inspected in Seville before its real departure and return there at the end of travel. When Elcano and the ship "Victoria" arrived to Sanlucar, the "Casa" sent fifteen men to drive the ship to Seville, as the picture shows.

The next link goes to a document called: "Documentos relativos a Juan Sebastián del Cano" (Documents related with Juan Sebastian del Cano), ISBN: I.S.B.N. 978-84-690-5859-6, from the Pacific-America collection in Archivo de la Frontera, a historic portal recognized by the UNESCO.

This source analyzes some key documents about this topic, dated a few days or weeks after the return of the expedition. We can read:

Cite 1 (page 4): "El 10 de agosto de 1519 las cinco naves zarparán del puerto de Sevilla, pero la partida definitiva no sería hasta el 20 de septiembre cuando salen de Sanlúcar rumbo a Canarias,..."

Cite 1 (page 4): "On 10 August 1519 the five ships set sail from the port of Seville, but the definitive departure would not be until September 20 when they leave Sanlúcar towards Canary Islands..."

Cite 2 (page 6): "Finalmente, el día 6 de agosto entran en Sanlúcar de Barrameda, de donde habían salido, después de una ausencia de tres años menos 14 días. La Casa de la Contratación envió quince hombres para conducir la nao hasta Sevilla..."

Cite 2 (page 6): "Finally, on August 6 they come in Sanlucar de Barrameda, where they had left from, after an absence of three years less 14 days. The Casa de la Contratación (House of Trade) sent fifteen men to drive the ship to Seville...".

Other key documents:

* Elcano writes to the King the same day they arrive to Sanlucar (6 september 1522):

"Sabrá vuestra alta Majestad cómo hemos llegado dieciocho hombres solamente con una de las cinco naves que V. M. mandó a descubrir la Especiería...

...

A bordo de la nao Victoria, en San Lúcar, a seis días de septiembre de 1522."

"His Majesty must know that only eighteen men have arrived with one of the five ships that H. M. had sent to find the Spice Islands...

...

On board the ship Victoria, in San Lucar, six days of September 1522."

* The king Carlos V anwsers to Elcano (13 august 1522)

"Vi vuestra letra que me escribiste de San Lucar en que me hacéis saber vuestra llegada en salvamento con la nao nombrada la Victoria, una de las cinco naos que fueron al descubrimiento de la Especería,..."

"I saw the letter you wrote me from San Lucar in which you make me know your arrival in rescue with the ship called La Victoria, one of the five ships that depart to discover the Spice Islands, ..."--Armando-Martin (talk) 08:15, 31 December 2012 (UTC)

In the cite 2 (page 6) of the document "Documentos relativos a Juan Sebastián del Cano" there is a little errata in the date: Obviously, the expedition ends in Sanlucar on September 6, not in August 6. There is no any doubt about the date.

The own cited text says that the expedition lasts three years minus 14 days;

Departure from Sanlucar on 20 September 1519;

Arrival to Sanlucar on 6 September 1522; that is 3 years minus 14 days.

That misprint in the date doesn't change the sense of the document. Sanlucar de Barrameda was the initial and final point of the expedition, such as demonstrates the official document of navigation (derrotero in Spanish). --193.33.2.112 10:09, 2 January 2013 (UTC)

Ok, so if the sources says that the real departure is from Sanlucar de Barrameda, I restore the former map. Sémhur (talk) 18:12, 3 January 2013 (UTC)

The only port that doesn't appear in the map of the ports of the Expedition is the main one. Appart of this, appears before an unknown port of South America before Seville.

I put this video of the BBC wich tell that the travel finish on Seville in the first sentece: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rKg_kNpsEZI#t=0m12s

And put this video about Seville, where we can see the monument of Seville to Juan Sebastian Elcano: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LnV7IkZU-OY --CarlosVdeHabsburgo (talk) 14:11, 7 January 2013 (UTC)

Hola, continúo la discusión en español. Pongo nuevos argumentos sobre el lugar de inicio y finalización del viaje de la Primera Vuelta al Mundo.

Cita 1:El 10 de agosto de 1519 una descarga de artillería anuncia el momento de la salida del puerto de Sevilla. Las naves llegan a San Lúcar de Barrameda y allí fondean frente al castillo del Duque de Medina Sidonia. No se sabe por qué esta escala fue tan prolongada, pues las naves permanecieron allí hasta el 20 de septiembre. Durante la misma, Magallanes fue varias veces a a Sevilla, donde habían quedado su esposa y su pequeño hijo Rodrigo. [...] El 15 de agosto de 1522, la Victoria navegó entre las islas de Fayal y de las Flores, y del archipiélago de las Azores, y el día 1 de septiembre vieron, emocionados, el cabo San Vicente. El día 6 del mismo mes arribaron a San Lúcar de Barrameda. Sólo 18 expedicionarios y algunos indios habían conseguido llegar a España. Elcano, deseoso de llegar a Sevilla, apenas se detuvo en Sanlúcar de Barrameda. El mismo día de la llegada tomó a su servicio un barco para remolcar la Victoria por el Guadalquivir hasta Sevilla, por el mal estado en que se encontraba la nave. Los oficiales de la Casa de Contratación prepararon una lancha con 12 remos, cargada de provisiones frescas. Dos días después atracaba en Sevilla la Victoria. En el muelle esperaban las autoridades de la ciudad y los miembros de la Casa de Contratación en pleno, junto a un numeroso público que contemplaba la llegada de la desvencijada nave. Aquel día los navegantes no desembarcaron. Sólo lo hicieron a la mañana siguiente, en camisa y descalzos, con cirios en las manos y en procesión. Se encaminaron a la iglesia de Nuestra Señora de la Victoria y a la capilla de la Virgen de la Antigua de la Catedral de Sevilla.

La primera vuelta al mundo. Magallanes y Elcano. Julieta Banacloche. 1991. Ediciones SM. Sociedad Estatal Quinto Centenario

Cita 2: Alrededor del Mundo. Capítulo 2. Salida de Sevilla, arribó a la Costa de Brasil, y démora en la Bahía de San Julián.

Título del capítulo sobre el comienzo del viaje en la obra El Primer Viage Hecho Al Rededor del Mundo, emprendido por Hernando de Magallanes, y llevado felizmente a término por Juan Sebastián del Cano. Su autor Don Casimiro de Ortega. Madrid, 1769. --CarlosVdeHabsburgo (talk) 18:03, 15 October 2013 (UTC)

Magellan's stop-over (stand-by) Island names are WRONG in the map !!!

The FIRST island Magellan stumbled into, he named San Antonio (now, probably, it is Puka Puka, French Polinesia). THEN he stumbled into "Isla de los Tiburones" (now, probably, Vostok, Kiribati). So, in the map, Magellan's names for these islands have been INVERTED ! — Preceding unsigned comment was added by 62.18.246.101 (talk) 12:15, 4 May 2020 (UTC)

No. --Achim (留言) 13:38, 4 May 2020 (UTC)