File talk:Makhno group.jpg

Early publication

@Czar: Hey, I just went through my copy of Peter Arshinov's History of the Makhnovist Movement and found this photo published in it, so I was hoping I would be able to use it in the Makhno article if it passes US-PD scrutiny. Could you confirm if it is in the 1923 German language edition? I don't have access to this version, so I can't check myself. --Grnrchst (talk) 19:21, 3 January 2024 (UTC)

Alas, nope, just that one portrait (between p. 272 and 273) in that volume and no other illustrations. When was your edition published? czar 21:15, 3 January 2024 (UTC)

It's on page 220 of the 1974 English translation by Fredy and Lorraine Perlman. The book appears to have been published without a copyright notice, so I'm wondering if this would fit under PD-US-no notice. --Grnrchst (talk) 22:11, 3 January 2024 (UTC)

It's a particularly tricky transnational case, but that has a better basis in PD rationale than the current templates, so go for it.

To your point, that publication and translation are definitely PD-US-no-notice, as long as this is its first edition/publication. The translation is a derivative work but I'm not sure of the degree it is transformative, being a straight translation, but if Arshinov published the original in 1923, that would also be PD for US copyright so no real contest. The image is ostensibly not taken by the book's authors, nor did they credit its source, so it can be assumed that someone else could lay claim to it, i.e., if it is not PD in its country of origin (Ukraine?) But we also don't have evidence of where it was taken or would be copyrighted, so again I don't think anyone is going to challenge it. czar 00:54, 4 January 2024 (UTC)

@Czar: We do know it was taken in Huliaipole in 1919. And aye, there is no evidence that this is copyrighted, but I'm trying to abide by the Mickey Mouse laws for the sake of maintaining the article's FA status. --Grnrchst (talk) 11:40, 4 January 2024 (UTC)

@Nikkimaria: Tagging as you were the image reviewer for FAC. Do you have any objections to this photograph going in the article? --Grnrchst (talk) 11:41, 4 January 2024 (UTC)

If I understand the discussion above correctly, the first verified publication is in the 1974 edition? Under which rationale is it believed to be PD in country of origin? Nikkimaria (talk) 01:24, 5 January 2024 (UTC)

First verified publication is 1974, which is PD in its original country, the US. The publication makes no mention of the image's origins, which are ostensibly Ukraine but we have no verification of publication/authorship there. czar 02:11, 5 January 2024 (UTC)

So then why is there a Ukrainian tag in place? Nikkimaria (talk) 03:54, 5 January 2024 (UTC)

Ostensibly there would need to be clearance on the part of the unknown Ukrainian author, since the photo existed as a separate work prior to the 1974 US publication? I'm fuzzy on how that works. Fine to remove if the US tag alone is sufficient. czar 12:18, 5 January 2024 (UTC)

@Nikkimaria: I have replaced the Ukrainian PD tag with a Russian one, as earliest publication I've found was in a Moscow-based journal. I have also replaced the PD-US-no notice tag with a PD-US-expired one, due to the 1927 publication. Is this shipshape or is there something I've missed? --Grnrchst (talk) 15:22, 6 January 2024 (UTC)

Is the photographer credited in the Russian version? Nikkimaria (talk) 01:38, 7 January 2024 (UTC)

@Nikkimaria No, there was no credit provided. I would have added information if it had been included. --Grnrchst (talk) 10:28, 7 January 2024 (UTC)

I've just found a pre-1929 publication of a derivative of this image! It's on page 123 of "Voina i Revolutsiya" issue 9, from 1927. It's hard to make out, as the scan has kind of garbled the image, but there's enough detail to see that it's clearly the same photograph. --Grnrchst (talk) 15:33, 5 January 2024 (UTC)

Nice! This should be fine to use. Can you make out the caption? czar 22:48, 5 January 2024 (UTC)

Aye it says "Makhno with his staff 1920". I don't think the year 1920 is right, due to the clothes Makhno himself is wearing and his lack of facial hair. Patterson 2020 gives the date as 1919 and I'm 99.9% sure it was taken at the same hour as that film reel of Makhno and Shchus by the train. --Grnrchst (talk) 09:28, 6 January 2024 (UTC)

К. П. 4006

This photograph, as seen in a previous version, is marked with the lettering "К. П. 4006". Does anybody know what this could be referring to? Grnrchst (talk) 16:40, 4 January 2024 (UTC)

@UnknownVolin, would you happen to recognize this as an archival mark? czar 02:12, 5 January 2024 (UTC)

Ukraine or Romania

We were discussing Huliaipole and Ukraine above but wouldn't this photo likely be Romanian based on the Chatelain discussion of the visually similar reel mentioned above?

CP: How did you find these archives where we see Makhno and his companions on a station platform?
Hélène Chatelain: It's a stroke of luck. I had heard that Makhno had been filmed alive, but I did not know where. I came across a film made by a director from Saint Petersburg, which showed a reel which came from Romania, a scoop, and suddenly I saw this scene. And thanks to friends from Moscow who know the archives well, I was able to find the footage that had been repatriated from Romania. It was the first alliance between Bolsheviks and insurgent peasants and the front camera was there. ... There are also the market plans because the cameramen like to take pictures. It is also interesting to see how we frame and what is done. And this film with Makhno, the first time we saw it, we went for a coffee because it was overwhelming. And we realize that many photos are actually prints of this film. There are archives everywhere. ...
— Machine English translation of Chroniques Rebelles; discussed in w:en:Talk:Nestor Makhno#Châtelain film

czar 15:20, 6 January 2024 (UTC)

@Czar: It says they got the film reel from Romania, but not that it originated there. (Also Chatelain says the director was Russian) Are you asking if this film was captured in Romania, not in Ukraine? Because there's absolutely no chance that that's the case. Makhno looked completely different by the time he arrived in Romania, he didn't have an army or access to armoured trains, and Shchus was dead. To my knowledge, Shchus never set foot in Romania. I kind of wish Chatelain was a bit more specific in this answer. Sadly we can't ask her for more details any more. --Grnrchst (talk) 15:28, 6 January 2024 (UTC)

Also I don't think it's accurate to link to the film reel as "Other versions". I said this photograph appears to have been taken at around the same time, but it doesn't appear anywhere in the film reel itself. This is clearly a distinct piece of media. --Grnrchst (talk) 15:33, 6 January 2024 (UTC)

Okay, sounds good. That's what I wanted to know.

re: Other versions in {{Information}}, the documentation approves of linking to similar versions so it's essentially encouragement to see other files related to the photo, as the film reel would be, even if it isn't identical. czar 15:49, 6 January 2024 (UTC)

Ah ok, noted. --Grnrchst (talk) 16:05, 6 January 2024 (UTC)