File talk:Mormon Family (Russell's Polygamy in Low Life).jpg

I'm so excited to see a picture of my ancestors on Wikipedia, however I would like to clarify a few things. The caption “Polygamist in Utah” is not entirely accurate. In the picture the woman on the right holding the baby is my great-great-grandmother Ann (Bunting) Ward. She is pictured with her in-laws. The Ward/Bunting family were not polygamists. The photographer of this picture, Andrew J. Russel, was in Utah capturing the joining of the railroads. At the time polygamy was a topic of interest to the country and the photographer knew that by labeling the picture as a polygamist family, it would sell better. He was correct in that assumption, and the picture became quite famous. The original is housed in the Union Pacific Railroad Museum in Iowa. The picture is labeled with a disclaimer “the information regarding the photograph has now been corrected by a descendant of the family”. The photo was also used in a Utah history book called “The Great West Illustrated” which has also confirmed the correction through a history professor at Utah State University, Dan Davis. In the following link you will find the genealogy of Ann Ward and her Husband Samuel Ward along with a portion of the picture on your page. I am quite happy that my families' picture is used as a piece of Utah's history. I just ask that the caption in the pages that link to this image be removed or noted with the correction. Yokotaashi (talk) 18:32, 8 July 2015 (UTC)Nancy A. Foster

After some research, I have decided not to nominate this image for deletion, but instead request that the original image be renamed. I have found a collection of this photographer's work here where another picture, obviously taken within seconds of this one, is titled "Mormon Family, Great Salt Lake Valley, 1869". I think this, or something like it, would be a fitting title. If anyone reading had any input on how I can affect the captions on other pages where this image is used, please let me know. Thank you. Yokotaashi (talk) 19:09, 8 July 2015 (UTC)Nancy A. Foster

The image is properly sources and titled per the photographer. The title of the work is "Mormon Family (Russell's Polygamy in Low Life)" and taken from the Charles R. Savage Photograph Collection, just as the Summery for the photograph is titled and linked.

The pages you linked are also Self Published. The Pdf is genealogy created by an unknown person. Additionally BYU, a reliable sources clearly say the image came from the Charles R. Savage Photograph Collection, not the subject of the image, i.e. the “Russell” family. The fact that mnhs.org is selling the image claiming the subject is the photographer is irrelevant. The photographer was Charles R. Savage.

Your welcome to "nominate this image for deletion", but it will be denied. Per Commons:Deletion policy a "Bad Name" or a claim that the image is “Poorly Named” is not justification for deletion, only renaming. Even if you can prove what you are claiming, the Deletion policy doesn’t allow for deletion, only renaming. I’ve seen it a number of time (for example Commons:Deletion requests/File:John Willard Young.jpg) Someone comes along make claims to be the ancestor or relieve of a person in an image and claims it’s the wrong person, so they want it deleted. The image is always kept.

Your are welcome to try Template:Rename, however, again, the source is clear. It say it’s the polygamist family with the last name “Russell”. I suggest you contact the Charles R. Savage Photograph Collection (here) and ask them to change it first, then suggest a Rename. However, again, I have seen it happen a number of times. They have the original negitives from CR Savage with his own handwriting as to who this image is. They have only once changed the subject of the image, and that was because of a misspelling, not a subject change.

If your interested in having it renamed to Mormon Family (Russell's Polygamy in Low Life)", I have no problem with that, and will request a change.--ARTEST4ECHO ^talk 19:53, 8 July 2015 (UTC)

I changed the name to match what the BYU archive called it. Since they have the original images and titles from the Charles R. Savage Photograph Collection, I have no problem naming it the same as they do, i.e. "File:Mormon Family (Russell's Polygamy in Low Life).jpg".--ARTEST4ECHO ^talk 13:46, 9 July 2015 (UTC)

Hi Yokotaashi and ARTEST4ECHO. I'm the BYU library's coodinator of Wikipedia initiatives and we've been in touch with the church history collection, who have sent us some more information about this photo. The BYU archive metadata should be updated soon; the church history's metadata is viewable here.

A 1880 Deseret news article affirms that the photograph was taken by A.J. Russell of the women of the Bunting residence, and that the family depicted is not polygamous, but that Russell advertised it as such. This editorial by Charles Savage states that he was with A.J. Russell at the time they encountered the family. The Bunting woman knew Savage from England, and asked that they take her photo with her daughters to send back to England. They arranged themselves with the spinning wheels and other home tools. The husband of the oldest daughter, Mr. Young was present and was also in the photo. Russell got permission from Savage to "take a negative also" (I believe this means he took a photo as well? Or copied the photo).

This is a Utah Historical Society newsletter that discusses the photo, summarizing the findings of the descendants (probably based on the above article and the location of the cabin, and possibly other documents). They identified the man as Samuel Ashton, who was married to Mary Bunting Ashton, who was a local midwife. The older woman on the left is identified as Ann Slater Bunting, the mother of the four adult women. The five children are identified as those of Ann Bunting Ward, the woman seated on the right.

I believe the Deseret News article and the church history metadata is sufficient evidence to change the photograph's description to something like "Ann Slater Bunting daughters and grandchildren" or "Mormon Pioneer family", but if you like we can wait until the BYU description is updated. I'm interested in adding the details of the other people in the photograph as well. What's your opinion? Rachel Helps (BYU) (talk) 16:45, 2 June 2016 (UTC)

Our photo archivist changed the photo's metadata to reflect the information. This photo was taken by Savage, but Russell also took a photo at the time (so there are similar photos on the commons that say they were taken by Russell, and they are also probably accurate). I changed this page's description to match the new information. Let me know if you have any questions! Rachel Helps (BYU) (talk) 15:54, 27 June 2016 (UTC)