File talk:RA-64047.jpg

File header

Is there a chance to see the EXIF (and GPS?) info for this file? I don't believe this was taken when it says it was taken. And I don't see even watermarked original anywhere on recognized spotter websites. No news agencies used it, either. I also don't see any other overhead shots like this from Kielce or near Kielce. I think the photographer is not truthful about it being the last shot of this airplane before the crash. Leo711 (talk) 14:44, 1 January 2013 (UTC)

You can see EXIF in the bottom (lowest) table under the description. You have there some metadata:

Canon EOS 500D

1/500 s (0,002)

10:32, 29 Dec 2012

etc.

You do not have here GPS data, but in the OTRS system (Ticket #2012122910006903) we have e-mail from bartusekspotter, author of this picture. We can read there (in Polish):

Lokalizacja : http://goo.gl/maps/fVs0H Tu stał teleskop, z tego miejsce wykonywałem zdjęcie,

what means:

"Localisation: http://goo.gl/maps/fVs0H Here was the telescope standing, from this place I was shoting this picture".

This localisation is exact 50°56'32,76"N; 20°32'36,83"E, points the garden in the posession on Łazy Street (near Łódzka Street) in Miedziana Góra, circa twelve kilometers NWN from Kielce.

Julo (talk) 16:03, 1 January 2013 (UTC)

Yes, I've seen that and that's why I've removed that message. If you decided to bring it back up, here are some more of my doubts. The photographer claims this photo was taken two hours before the crash. The metadata says it's 10:32. Aparently the time is UTC. It can't be Eastern European (Poland) time zone because then it would mean that it was taken 40 minutes before the airplane took off. It means that the local time was 11:32. In the Northern hemisphere the noon sun should be roughly at the South or South-East. And, if the airplane is flying East or North-East (as the route suggests) the sun should be illuminating the airplane's starboard. However, on the photograph the sun is aparently shining from the quarter port side (you can see the sun reflection on the left side of the windshield). This implies that the airplane is either flying West in the afternoon or is flying East in the morning in the Southern hemisphere. Do I understand this part correctly? It is also very suspicious that such a unique shot wasn't used by any news agencies or published on plane-spotters websites. I believe the reason for that is that both of those require the original photograph with genuine metadata. Leo711 (talk) 17:43, 1 January 2013 (UTC)

• File:EXIF Canon 500D .JPG is the same camera model with accurate metadata if anyone wants to compare. They come with GPS software but the module is an expensive add-on--Canoe1967 (talk) 09:04, 2 January 2013 (UTC)
• Even a very good photographer with a very good telescope can hardly change the physical laws. Apparently, he had wrong date/time settings in his camera. IMHO, it would be fair to remove strongly disputable words "two hours before crash" from the file name. Sealle (talk) 09:32, 2 January 2013 (UTC)
  • That'd be a good start! Leo711 (talk) 09:55, 2 January 2013 (UTC)
• Here http://www.flightradar24.com/2012-12-29/08:29/RWZ9267 one can cross check that on 8:29 UTC flight RWZ9267 Moscow-Pardubice was exactly near Kielce (flying in the west direction). The photographer himself specified everything correctly at the Polish spotter site http://kontakt24.tvn.pl/index.php/artykul,rosyjski-tu-204-red-wings-nad-kielcami-2-foto,813469.html, the picture was loaded to commons by another person with a little bit confusing description. So the picture is genuine and could be the last photograph of the plane before the crash. -- Ace111 (talk) 15:35, 2 January 2013 (UTC)
  • There are better words to describe "adding a little bit confusing description". Especially taking into account the fact that the uploader is the Commons' admin. I've also corrected the file description. Leo711 (talk) 16:02, 2 January 2013 (UTC)
  • And btw kontakt24 is NOT a Polish spotters' website. It's just "a place to share information" as it says in the project description. There is no verification process like on airliners.net. Photos are not checked neither for authenticity nor for quality. Leo711 (talk) 17:27, 2 January 2013 (UTC)
    • I have found this picture on the Polish portal lotnictwo.net.pl (Polish word lotnictwo means aviation):
      http://lotnictwo.net.pl/3-tematy_ogolne/15-wypadki_i_incydenty_lotnicze/51038-2012_12_29_tu_204_red_wings_airlines_ra_64047_wypadl_z_pasa_w_moskwie_wnukowo.html - see post #10 written by bartusek dated 29-12-2012, 14:46
      Looking for the author I have found his account here: http://www.youtube.com/user/bartusekspotter
      I asked bartusek (barusekspotter) using my Google/YT account. My e-mails to him and his answers from him I put into the OTRS system. I did not do more than copying picture-file and send and received letters. I believed the EXIF data are correct, but I really did not noticed 10:32 (as in EXIF) was not two, but three hours before crash. I don't know why you changed it (in description) to 8:30 UTC (I believe you are more adept in aviation than I am), but IMHO it is not very important. The most important is this picture is probably the last one of this plane flying...
      You can check my correspondence with Mr. Bartek Spura aka bartusek or bartusekspotter looking at the Ticket #2012122910006903 in the OTRS. I just asked this person to agree to use his picture (I have got the confirmation for CCBYSA) and asked him, where he was when he was shoting this picture (he sent this point on Google Maps). That's all.
      Julo (talk) 21:53, 2 January 2013 (UTC)

      PS. But by the way, Ace111, you linked the RWZ9267, Moscow-Pardubice at 8:29, but we know RA-64047 crashed at the end of flight Pardubice-Moscow, reverse direction!!! I do not understand, what all this means... Julo (talk) 22:12, 2 January 2013 (UTC)

      Huh! At last, I've investigated this problem myself and now I understand what's probably happened. This was really shot north of Kielce, but five hours before crash, i.e. circa 8:30 (maybe 8:32?) in the morning, during the flight RWZ9267 from Moscow to Pardubice. The last flight of RA-64047, RWZ9268 from Pardubice to Moscow, has been recorded here: http://www.flightradar24.com/data/airplanes/ra-64047 and this flight was @10:40 near Staszow south-east of Kielce. This picture is not the last flight of RA-64047, but the before-last flight. Anyways probably we have the last one picture of this plane flying.
      I'm sorry I was not cautious enough and trusted in informations I have got. Julo (talk) 22:58, 2 January 2013 (UTC)

      Well, yes, you got it - the time and the flight direction were doubtful. Sealle (talk) 00:28, 3 January 2013 (UTC)

This section is resolved and can be archived. If you disagree, replace this template with your comment. --Canoe1967 (talk) 23:46, 2 January 2013 (UTC)

Can we remove the dispute tags now if all are in agreement that it was an earlier flight?--Canoe1967 (talk) 23:46, 2 January 2013 (UTC)

• Agree. I've already tried to finish these speculations, but Leo711 (as I know from the discussion at the Russian WP) is still anxious about the difference in time: 8.32 UTC ≠ 10.32 Warsaw and considers these EXIF data as fake. Maybe, camera mistakenly remained on DST? Sealle (talk) 00:28, 3 January 2013 (UTC)

I have the same camera and the clock does lose/gain sometimes when I change batteries. File:Heron and small trout crop.jpg lost 2 years but the time and date are correct within an hour. I think the camera was still on my home time zone 1 hour east.--Canoe1967 (talk) 00:58, 3 January 2013 (UTC)