File talk:Serbia in the Yugoslav Wars.png

POV nature of the file

Ok, let see basic points:

• 1. Title of the file was changed and I have no objections to the current one.
• 2. I highly dissagree with usage of name "Serbia and Montenegro" as a name of a country before 2003. Official, generally recognized name of that country from 1992 to 2003 was FR Yugoslavia, so even if that name was not recognized by some countries that was a minority viewpoint and at least "FR Yugoslavia" should be main name used in the map with name "Serbia and Montenegro" given only in parenthessis (certainly not otherwise).
• 3. Term "Serbian forces" could be used, but should be specified in the file to which "Serbian forces" it refer to to avoid any confusion with forces of the Republic of Serbia. The fact that some special police or paramilitary units from Serbia were involved in the conflict does not change basic point that these units did not had effective control over territories of RS Krajina and Republika Srpska and there is no doubt that these territories were controled by army of RS Krajina and army of Republika Srpska, while units from Serbia were only secondary support to these armies and only in some parts of the war. Seems to me that you purposelly want to make an impression that Republic of Serbia commited agression against internationally recognized neighbouring countries. I hope that you are aware of the fact that most of the Croatian war happened before Croatia was internationally recognized as independent country and that such war initially had a character of war of Yugoslav forces (which in that time included also Montenegrins, Macedonians and Muslims/Bosniaks) against breakaway Yugoslav republic of Croatia - that was certainly not an agression of the Republic of Serbia against neighbouring internationally recognized country as you want to present with this map. There should be also note to which year this map refer since before 1992 the only internationally recognized border was a border of Yugoslavia. PANONIAN (talk) 23:14, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

Proper actions regarding this work

Mladifilozof, it is not enough only to change description in map page - to make this work NPOV you have to change file itself and to upload changed file version over existing one (if somebody want to save that map into computer, he will save only POV file, not entire page with description. Therefore, map itself should have proper descriptions as well, in accordance with proposals of myself and other users who participated in this discussion). If you do not change file in this way, I have again to raise a question whether it should be used in any article or not. PANONIAN (talk) 10:03, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

This file is made with the sole purpose of being used on Wikipedia. There is very clear and detailed definition of every term used in the map. I don't know what exactly is still disputed?--Mladifilozof (talk) 14:22, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

I already told you what is disputed, but I will repeat - you should make these changes in the map (I mean in the file itself, not just on map page):

• 1. you should specify exact year to which this map refer.
• 2. you should not use country name "Serbia and Montenegro" before year 2003. see this as example: http://www.cftech.com/BrainBank/GEOGRAPHY/maps/CentralBalkans.jpg - some American sources like that one from 1998 did not used term "Serbia and Montenegro" to refer to FR Yugoslavia, but used terms "Serbia" and "Montenegro" to refer to two separate territories that "have asserted the formation of a joint independent state", which "was not recognized as a state by the United States". In another words, "FR Yugoslavia" or "Serbia and Montenegro" or any joint entity with any name was not recognized at all by the United States, so sources like that one do not refer to a country named "Serbia and Montenegro", but they refer to two separate countries with names "Serbia" and "Montenegro".
• 3. instead "territories controled by Serbian forces" there should be description "territories controled by Bosnian and Croatian Serbs", which is more accurate and more NPOV and do not create confusion that forces of the Republic of Serbia are in question here. PANONIAN (talk) 23:21, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

response to criticism

...you should make these changes in the map (I mean in the file itself, not just on map page)...

The description is an integral part of the file. It is not obligatory to put all and every information in the map itself. On contrary, it is common practice to have more supporting informations on the associated file page. Everyone who clicks on the image in the article will get detailed description. It is far more important that the file description is correct.

...you should not use country name "Serbia and Montenegro" before year 2003...

Terms "Serbia" and "Montenegro" refers to two separate ex-Yugoslav territories that have asserted the formation of a joint independent state (FR Yugoslavia), which was not internationally recognized.

...instead "territories controled by Serbian forces" there should be description "territories controled by Bosnian and Croatian Serbs"...

The term "Serbian forces" is used by International Criminal Tribunal in a much broader sense. It also includes FR Yugoslav Army, Serb Territorial Defense of Bosnia and Herzegovina and Croatia, Republic of Srpska Krajina Army, Army of the Republika Srpska, territorial defense of Serbia and Montenegro, Police of Serbia and Police of Republika Srpska, including national security, special police forces of Krajina, as well as all Serbian paramilitary forces and volunteer units. I don't know what was the exact relationship between these forces, but I know that War Crime Tribunal accused Serbian president Milošević as a person in charge for the war crimes committed by Serb factions in Bosnia and Croatia. It is also known that FR Yugoslav army gave extensive military equipment and supplies to the Serbs of Bosnia and Croatia. It is also known that the Bosnian Serb Army arose from the Yugoslav army forces in Bosnia and Herzegovina. All JNA soldiers and officers originating from Bosnia and Herzegovina were moved to Bosnian Serb Army. Furthermore, some special police or paramilitary units from Serbia were directly involved in the conflict. I understand that you may have your own definition, but this work primarily relies on the Tribunal.--Mladifilozof (talk) 15:23, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

Moved from the previous discussion:

Well, if the term "Serbian forces" is used by ICTY for the Serb forces in Croatia and Bosnia, that's ok. It should however not link to Serbia as that implies forces (legally) controlled by the Republic of Serbia. There were no such forces - VJ was controlled by the FRY leadership, and no longer active outside its territory in 1993, on the ground level at least. Regards --20percent (talk) 17:45, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

• Serbia and Montenegro wasn't formed in 2003, but only changed its name. Both names are given in the file. In addition, the name "FR Yugoslavia" which was used 1993-2003 was officially unrecognized in many countries (like the US). "Serbia and Montenegro" was used in its stead in the 1992-2003 period (less later on, but certainly in 1993).
• I propose we use the term "territories controlled by Serbian factions" or simply "territories controlled by the Republic of Srpska and Republic of Serbian Krajina in 1993"

DIREKTOR (talk) 17:53, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

Ok, I will change "Serbian forces" to "Serb forces" to avoid any confusion.--Mladifilozof (talk) 04:10, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

Delete disputed image

Minor name changes are not important, image problem is quite bigger that that. Delete per this. --Tadija (talk) 11:54, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

Please, can you be more specific? --Mladifilozof (talk) 15:33, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

Keep the image, because…

…the map is accurate, since it shows the territories as recognized by the time by the International community (and the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia was outside the United Nations since it did not recognized it as the legitimate successor of the dissolved Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia seat). The territories painted in red outside Serbia and Montenegro (which currently appears here in Commons in different files: File:Bsa_controlled.png, File:RSK.png, File:Croatia minefields.png) do correspond to the territories under the control of Yugoslav-Serb forces. And according to all the reports and information gathered by the time in the international media (The New York Times - 1993, TIME Magazine - 1995, The New York Times -2006) and later acknowledged by the ICTY, including the declarations of the political and military commanders of the Serb fighting forces during the Yugoslav Wars, all the Yugoslav and Serb military, paramilitary and militia forces deployed in the Balkans until Operation Storm in 1995 were directly or indirectly under control and/or in coordination with the Slobodan Milosevic’s central government in Belgrade. The links provided in this paragraph further explains the basic details of this historical fact.--MaGioZal (talk) 14:47, 15 March 2010 (UTC)