File talk:Wagner Group rebellion 2023.svg

Source specification

Rr016 , or others: could you please provide a precise source?
There is absolutely no source at the moment, what of course is an impossible thing for encyclopedic use.
Thanks in advance. --Itu (對話) 15:02, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

Lookout: Moscow Oblast and Rostov

Barbanovo, Moscow Oblast has supposedly been taken according to Socportal and Russian media (1), however it's best to wait for a confirmation from more reliable sources.

Chechen forces are on their way to Rostov (2), and there are already some reports of clashes. If this gets reported on by reliable sources, Rostov should be changed to disputed. DinoSoupCanada (對話) 16:33, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

Mistake to fix

Kaliningrad city is spelled "Kalinigrad". FrozedCourgette (對話) 17:36, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

Done. --ZomBear (對話) 20:25, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

Thanks! FrozedCourgette (對話) 18:46, 28 June 2023 (UTC)

Wagner never held Rostov's southwestern bulge

That bulge in the southwest of Rostov Oblast, the one including Taganrog and that goes into Ukraine, was never held by Wagner. Wagnerites entered from the road in Novoshakhtinsk, went down into Rostov-on-Don and then apparently divided into two and one of them went north for Moscow. It is not true that they controlled Taganrog and the surronding area. Super Dromaeosaurus (對話) 08:09, 25 June 2023 (UTC)

That not seems true, because there were some videos about, at least, Taganrog [1]. KajenCAT (對話) 08:41, 25 June 2023 (UTC)

Random videos from Twitter are not a reliable source. Also, the caption says "Taganrog exit from Rostov-on-Don." HappyWithWhatYouHaveToBeHappyWith (對話) 17:19, 25 June 2023 (UTC)

I also believe that the Chechen/Kadyrovites which were sent to Rostov-on-Don to get rid of Wagner used this area to travel from Ukraine to the city, which implies Wagner didn't properly control that area. It could very well be that Wagner only drove through this area but never established actual control. As to how this should be shown on the map if this was indeed the case, I'll leave up to other. Poklane (對話) 01:10, 26 June 2023 (UTC)

Spelling

Please change "Rostov-na-Don" to "Rostov-on-Don". I would fix it myself but the page is seemingly fully protected. HappyWithWhatYouHaveToBeHappyWith (對話) 16:26, 25 June 2023 (UTC)

Rostov Oblast and Taganrog

As @Yeastie has pointed out at en:Talk:Wagner Group rebellion#Taganrog under Wagner control, the map shows vast swaths of Rostov Oblast as being under Wagner control, including the major city of Taganrog. There plainly aren't any sources that support this. Can we please limit the displayed control to the specific places that are actually known to be under Wagner control? HappyWithWhatYouHaveToBeHappyWith (對話) 17:15, 25 June 2023 (UTC)

¿Lipetsk?

Many sources and the article itself says that Wagner captured the city of Lipetsk, but it is not colored black on the map. StormStep04 (對話) 14:03, 27 June 2023 (UTC)

Wagner never controlled any territory outside Rostov

This map is unsourced and mostly incorrect.

• Wagner never actually controlled any territory outside Rostov. For example, the US army definition of 'control' requires that "the enemy ... cannot move his ground forces through that area", but Akhmat moved one or two (maybe more) large convoys close to Rostov, and Wagner didn't (probably couldn't) do anything about it.
• The Wagner convoy to Moscow probably "controlled" the area in its immediate surroundings (and I guess up to a few kilometers in air space), but not more.
• There's little to no evidence that the convoy (or significant parts of it) was ever south of Pavlovsk or north of Yelets. See e.g. the maps prepared by the NY Times and Reuters. The convoy (or at least most of the vehicles) very likely entered Russia from Russian-occupied territory in Ukraine, probably at the Bugaevka border crossing, and didn't come all the way from Rostov.
• There's no evidence that any Wagner troops spent any time in the city of Voronezh. They just passed by on the highway, and maybe drove through the outskirts. They never "controlled" the city.

We need to completely redraw this map. The map could indicate that Wagner controlled the city of Rostov (but no other areas), and it could show the route of the convoy (about which not much is known, really). We could use the NY Times and Reuters maps as a basis. — Chrisahn (對話) 15:47, 27 June 2023 (UTC)

You're 100% correct that describing the gray area as "controlled" constitutes misinformation. For now, I've copyedited the description and captions, but even describing it as a "path travelled" is not really correct... I'm not sure what the gray areas on the map are based on or what they're supposed to depict on this map, but it seems to be entirely original research.

A good "map of the Wagner rebellion" would really just be a map of Russia's M-4 highway--that's what Wagner's route was, they literally drove along the highway. For use in wiki articles, all that is needed is a map that highlights the M-4 highway and shows some points of interest, such as Rostov-on-Don, Voronezh, and possibly, based on reliable sources, a few others, like Pavlovsk, Yelets, and if it can be sourced, the northern-most point on the M-4 that the convoy reached (somewhere near Yelets?). The map should show a route, and points of interest along that route; it should not depict "areas under Wagner control," because there really were none. (They controlled certain buildings, but not territory; it's not even clear that they controlled Rostov-on-Don, as opposed to just occupying the city or a portion of the city. The claimed to control it, but I'm not sure RSes have said the same in their own voice.) Levivich (對話) 16:15, 27 June 2023 (UTC)

According to the referenced NYT article, they did control Rostov-on-Don:

• "Despite the defense measures, Wagner forces took Rostov-on-Don with little resistance."
• "As Wagner consolidated control of Rostov-on-Don, its forces pushed north toward Moscow."

Other than that, Chrisahn's comments seem to make sense, as the map appears to have been drawn largely based off of other maps rather than RS', which, iirc, is a big no-no. But regardless how would the map be developed if Wagner control of Voronezh and other areas like that is ruled out? Presidentofyes12 (對話) 16:38, 27 June 2023 (UTC)

I focused on "control" because the description contained "area of control", but that has been fixed by Levivich (thanks), and I think we should move away from the "control" aspect. For example, we'll never know how much of Rostov was "controlled" by Wagner for 15 hours. The whole city? A few streets? But it doesn't matter anyway. Let's just indicate which cities and roads were relevant during the rebellion. If we more or less follow the NY Times and Reuters maps, that's Rostov, and roughly the M4 highway between Pavlovsk and Yelets. I see no reason to color any areas. — Chrisahn (對話) 17:24, 27 June 2023 (UTC)