File talk:Word-mono-no-fu-no-michi-in-Koyo-Gunkan-by-Kosaka-Masanobu-1616.png

Japanese sources

Related discussion at w:User_talk:Eirikr#Mono-fu-no-michi. Eiríkr Útlendi | Tala við mig 18:26, 19 May 2021 (UTC)

@Artanisen: Your stated reasons for reversion in your edit comment were:

Using a rarely used reading for this file name would create much confusing, because the Japanese reading "Bushido" is commonly known, used in Japan and internationally.

• The image clearly shows 武士の道. This cannot be the term bushidō, due to the presence of that の (no) as the third character. Claiming otherwise is plainly counterfactual.

See again Kotobank or Weblio (in Japanese), plainly indicating that this spelling is read as mono no fu no michi.

• The page of text in the image is from the w:Kōyō Gunkan, which was written in the 1600s. At that time, the term mono no fu no michi was more commonly used than at present. Indeed, the term 武士道 (ostensibly pronounced bushidō) makes its first appearance ever in the w:Kōyō Gunkan, so at that time, bushidō would instead be the rare term. And, as explained on my talk page thread linked above, particles like の (no) were not always explicitly spelled out in lexicalized compounds, so even there we cannot rule out that this might be an alternative spelling of 武士の道 (mono no fu no michi), such that the pronunciation bushidō might actually be a later innovation.
• Regardless of perceived rarity of terms, the filename is incorrect, as the image does not show the word 武士道 (bushidō) anywhere on that page, and indeed the white box highlights the word 武士の道 (mono no fu no michi) instead.

Everything I am finding indicates that 武士の道 was never read as bushidō, and was only read as mono no fu no michi. As such, this file is incorrectly named.

@Artanisen: , do you have any references that state that 武士の道 was ever pronounced as bushidō? If so, please provide links and/or quotes. Eiríkr Útlendi | Tala við mig 17:33, 21 May 2021 (UTC)

@Eirikr: , the reasons are numerous as also explained on your talk page. Gave an article that describes it as "bushido", it does not mention the other pronunciation. 武士の道 this is もののふ‐の‐みち = mono-no-fu-no-michi, which is now rarely used. At that time it could be read as mono-no-fu-no-michi, but possibly also as bushi-no-do". You provide no compelling evidence of your claims about commonality of the other pronunciation. "武士の道". Explained it plenty of times. - Artanisen (talk) 19:06, 21 May 2021 (UTC)

@Artanisen: What link?

If you're referring to https://www.nippon.com/en/japan-topics/g00665/bushido-an-ethical-and-spiritual-foundation-in-japan.html that you posted on my talk page at w:User_talk:Eirikr#Mono-no-fu-no-michi, that article does not mention the spelling 武士の道 anywhere.

I have not seen any textual evidence that 武士の道 was ever read as bushi no dō or as bushidō in Japanese.

I have provided multiple links, all showing that 武士の道 was read as mono no fu no michi. Do you dispute these other sources? If so, could you explain your reasoning? Eiríkr Útlendi | Tala við mig 19:24, 21 May 2021 (UTC)

I'm not disputing that early reading was "mono-no-fu-no-michi", but there's no telling that it wasn't also read as bushi-no-do or when it changed and became bushido. Since "mono-no-fu-no-michi" is rarely used nowadays, and basically unknown internationally, it's important to keep the well known pronunciation "bushido" in the file name. -Artanisen (talk) 19:33, 21 May 2021 (UTC)

Clarification: in the present (now) people internationally know this term as "bushido", the historical pronunciation of 武士の道 was likely mono-no-fu-no-michi. However, this term is not known internationally. So I think it is best that I update the description below the image, to include "mono-no-fu-no-michi" while explaining that this is the ancient pronounciation of bushido (武士道).-Artanisen (talk) 19:49, 21 May 2021 (UTC)

@Artanisen: , the reading of 武士の道 cannot be bushidō. The text in the image of the w:Kōyō Gunkan shows the word 武士の道. The filename of this image claims that this shows the word bushidō. This claim is incorrect.

It is irrelevant how well-known the term mono no fu no michi might be internationally. The image does not show the term bushidō. The filename is effectively lying. This is not acceptable. Whatever else we do with the description of the image, the filename must be changed.

The pronunciation bushidō, regardless of how well-known it is, is not a correct reading for the spelling 武士の道. The third character, の (no), is phonetic, and thus must be included in any accurate romanization of this term. There is no no in bushidō, and bushidō is not, and cannot be, a pronunciation for the spelling 武士の道 that is shown in the photograph of the text.

Historically, I can find no evidence that 武士の道 was ever read as bushi no dō. I have provided links to the 武士の道 pages in online dictionary aggregators Kotobank and Weblio, showing that this was read as mono no fu no michi, and not including any reading bushi no dō. I have provided links to Google searches that show matches for 武士の道 with the reading もののふのみち (mono no fu no michi), and zero matches for 武士の道 with the reading ぶしのどう (bushi no dō). I have checked and double-checked my dead-tree and digital dictionaries here in the house, again finding zero evidence for any bushi no dō.

Meanwhile, I have shown evidence that 武士の道 continues to be recognized in Japanese with the reading mono no fu no michi, even in modern contexts. The noun 武士 (mono no fu) has ancient origins, but it is not obsolete -- I have three modern dictionaries that include modern pitch accent information for this term: w:Daijirin, w:Shin Meikai kokugo jiten (both my fourth- and fifth-edition copies), and the NHK Nihongo Hatsuon Akusento Jiten as mentioned on the w:Japanese pitch accent page. Neither the Shin Meikai nor the NHK dictionary include obsolete terms, and where Daijirin does include obsolete terms, it does not provide any pitch accent information. I can provide images of these if needed.

The single-kanji term 道 on its own is almost always pronounced michi. Where it does appear with the reading dō, it is almost always in a kanji compound, without any particles between the 道 and the preceding or following portion of the compound. Where it appears with a preceding の and is used as a standalone noun, it is almost always read as michi. The article you linked earlier mentions the term "kyūba no michi (the way of horseback archery)". The original Japanese version of that article shows that this is spelled 弓馬の道, with that same の道 on the end, and with the reading unambiguously indicated in the English version as no michi, and in this same context of martial philosophy. Circumstantially, this reinforces the likelihood that the の道 in 武士の道 would be read as no michi, not no dō.

⇒ Key point: The filename is factually incorrect, and must be changed. Eiríkr Útlendi | Tala við mig 22:05, 21 May 2021 (UTC)

Sorry for the late reply (been busy in IRL). Thanks for your lengthy explanation and research. I agree with your findings. Although it is still unclear when the reading changed to Bushido and whether this was read as Bushi-no-do at some point in history is open to interpretation and investigation. - Artanisen (talk) 23:52, 21 August 2021 (UTC)