File talk:Nike-Black Brant VC XQC launch.gif

Black Brant 8/9

The reference that provided the figure actually doesn't state which Black Brant is pictured. Both Nike and Terrier have been used by McCammon's group. I'll look around to try and find something definitive. Marshallsumter (talk) 16:44, 2 October 2012 (UTC)

I found an interesting source at NASA, url=http://phonon.gsfc.nasa.gov/rocket/vehicle/vehicle.html, which indicates that Black Brant 9 may be the Nike version rather than the Terrier version. Also, the image when I uploaded it was probably an 8 or 9. My reference from May '08 refers to the rocket as a 9. And, this new source indicates that the 9 was a Nike-Black Brant, not the Terrier-Black Brant which McCammon's group is using now. Marshallsumter (talk) 17:57, 2 October 2012 (UTC)

Rename discussion

I'm moving this discussion of this file's name/renaming from my talk:

Hi INeverCry!

May I ask that you reconsider your recent redirect regarding File:Black Brant 8 Microcalorimeter launch.gif. While I too wish to have files named correctly, the reference provided with the file does not state whether this is a Black Brant 8 or 9. If you look at the discussion page and the included NASA url, you'll see that the 9 uses a Nike booster. I have not found any source that states the image is of a Black Brant 8, but the NASA url indicates a 9 is also a Nike. The launch in May 2008, after the photo was taken in September 2007, states a 9 was launched. So far I haven't found any NASA reference that the photo in September 2007 is an 8. I would like the commons user GDK to supply a source for his belief that it is an 8. Marshallsumter (talk) 18:09, 2 October 2012 (UTC)

Let me also add that in my original write-up I stated that the rocket is a 9. GDK changed the text to an 8 without appropriate reference. Marshallsumter (talk) 18:12, 2 October 2012 (UTC)

Hi Marshall. The technical details and sources are all Greek to me, so I've asked GDK on his talk to respond to your concerns either here or at the image talk. Also, I wonder if a neutral rename to File:Black Brant Microcalorimeter launch.gif would be a possible solution, in order to avoid the disputed number? INeverCry 18:50, 2 October 2012 (UTC)

I like your solution! I've been doing some more checking and the image dates to earlier, url=http://phonon.gsfc.nasa.gov/rocket/rocket.html, from 2001. The 8 and 9 look almost identical. And, both appear to date to much earlier than September 2007. Marshallsumter (talk) 19:06, 2 October 2012 (UTC)

I'll give GDK some time to respond before going forward. INeverCry 20:20, 2 October 2012 (UTC)

[1] tells that it is a Nike Black Brant (i.e. Black Brant VIII). On page [2] this very image is identified as the XQC-2 mission and the first three XQC flights used a BB-8 (see [3]). Another visual indicator is the olive green painting of the booster stage, which only appears on Nike boosters (Army heritage), but not on Terrier. --GDK (talk) 22:49, 2 October 2012 (UTC)

From the olive green color of the booster stage in the file, I agree with GDK that the booster is the Nike. GDK reference [1] does not state 8 or 9. GDK reference [2] does not state that missile is an 8 or 9. GDK reference [3], an independent source of information (not NASA), states the 1996 launch of GDK [2] is a BB8. Another independent source, url=http://www.astronautix.com/lvs/blarant9.htm, shows the 9 with a white booster, refers to the booster as a Terrier and does not include the 1996 launch by McCammon. I agree with GDK that the rocket in the image is the BB8 used in 1996. Sorry about that. I'll see if I can find a BB9 at NASA for later flights. Marshallsumter (talk) 03:30, 3 October 2012 (UTC)

I'm glad to see that you were able to resolve this so quickly. You may also want to add a note with some of the above pertinent info and sources to the image's talkpage or description to avoid any confusion. INeverCry 06:13, 3 October 2012 (UTC)

While we've been discussing apples and oranges, I've received a banana in an email from Prof. McCammon: "You[r] picture appears to be our payload on a Nike-Black Brant VC. The first three launches of the XQC experiment used this vehicle. I'd not heard the BB VIII designation before -- only Nike-Brant -- but that seems to be correct. ... Our last two launches (May 2008 and Nov 2011) used the Terrier-boosted BB VC (Black Brant IX)." It's your call! Marshallsumter (talk) 19:26, 3 October 2012 (UTC)

I see you placed (Black Brant IX) in parentheses; is that his designation or your own? If there's a 9, did an 8 exist? I'm far from knowing anything about this subject, so in order to make a change of the filename again, I would need you to tell me straight out exactly what the new name should be and a reason (in layman's terms). INeverCry 19:56, 3 October 2012 (UTC)

That's his. I can forward a copy of his email to you or GDK if you wish. I only ask that you keep my real name and email confidential. My take on his statement is that the historical name he was given by NASA was Nike-Black Brant VC, as in the Cth modification of the Nike-Black Brant V. If we wish to use his input, I suggest a file name of "Nike-Black Brant VC XQC launch.gif". I believe what happened is that the original designation was Nike-Black Brant VC. The NASA site does use the designation "Nike-Black Brant V", and in the accompanying picture there is a jump from "Nike-Black Brant" to "Black Brant IX". I'll see if I can locate a NASA source that either uses Nike-Black Brant VC or something with an "8". Marshallsumter (talk) 21:00, 3 October 2012 (UTC)

This pdf from NASA dated 1982 uses the designation Nike-Black Brant VC in reference to another project, so I believe that portion is correct. And, this historical document also uses the Black Brant VC designation but leaves off the Nike part. No NASA references as yet to a Black Brant 8. A file name of "Black Brant VC XQC launch.gif" would be shorter. XQC can be replaced with Microcalorimeter. But I like the former. Marshallsumter (talk) 21:20, 3 October 2012 (UTC)

No need to forward the email: I think we can assume good faith on your part in regard to that info. Let's see what GDK thinks of your suggested name and etc. INeverCry 00:16, 4 October 2012 (UTC)

"Black Brant VC XQC launch.gif" would be completely wrong, as the "Black Brant VC" is a single stage rocket. The correct designation of this vehicle is "Black Brant 8" as dedigned by the manufacturer (see e.g. Jane's Space Directory, 10th edition, 1994-95, p 197-198) or "Nike Black Brant VC" as preferred by NASA. There is also a "Black Brant VIII" reference on a NASA Page: [4] --GDK (talk) 06:20, 10 October 2012 (UTC)

The "Black Brant VIII" designation appears to apply to the manufacturer's product per the website provided by GDK. The website refers to a second stage (the first being a Nike) as "Bristol Black Brant V c Motor". McCammon's papers refer to "a two-stage Nike–Black Brant sounding rocket" [5], "the Black Brant V" [6]. "Nike-Black Brant sounding rocket" [7], "Black Brant APF-1VB" [8], and "a Black Brant VC sounding rocket" [9]. The gif that I uploaded is the one used for McCammon's payload in 1991, so to me either "Black Brant VC XQC launch.gif", "Nike Black Brant VC XQC launch.gif", or "Nike-Black Brant VC XQC launch.gif" is okay. The name used closest by date to the launch is "Nike-Black Brant sounding rocket" [10]. I don't believe the manufacturer's original designation should be used with a specific launch and payload, which is what this gif contains. The gif is not a manufacturer's generic rocket. Another possibility is "Black Brant VIII XQC launch.gif" Marshallsumter (talk) 16:10, 10 October 2012 (UTC)

Note: the launch was conducted by NASA, not by Jane, a highly respected source. Marshallsumter (talk) 16:15, 10 October 2012 (UTC)

Note: this is the same image uploaded as File:Black-Brant-8 XQC 2.jpg by GDK on October 2, 2012. Marshallsumter (talk) 16:39, 10 October 2012 (UTC)

Note: McCammon used Nike-Black Brant VC so my choice is "Nike-Black Brant VC XQC launch.gif". The "Black Brant VIII" designation is in various places on the web and uses different color schemes, none of which match McCammon's launch. The duplicate photo uploaded by GDK should have the same designation "Nike-Black Brant VC XQC launch.gif" or be superseded. Marshallsumter (talk) 16:54, 10 October 2012 (UTC)