Category talk:Rochester Institute of Technology

Is RIT in Rochester?

@DanielPenfield: You have reverted me adding this category to Category:Universities and colleges in Rochester, New York. Based on en:Rochester Institute of Technology#History, RIT resided within Rochester, New York from its founding until 1968. This category is meant to include files from the entire history of RIT, not just the present day. Why shouldn't it be included in the Rochester, New York category? –IagoQnsi (talk) 19:08, 31 January 2022 (UTC)

Your claim	My response
"RIT resided within Rochester, New York from its founding until 1968"	Yes, you appear to have learned that since your first attempt to categorize it as a University or College in Rochester, New York. In your second attempt you revealed your true motivation for this categorization: that "they (sic) are recognized as being in Rochester, even if they are not within the legal bounds". It's this ignorance that has no business on any Wikimedia-related project. "Well everybody knows, based solely on its name, that the Rochester Institute of Technology is in Rochester!!!" you proclaim. Yet how can it be "in Rochester" if it appears in this map of the Town of Henrietta? Even the section heading for your complaint on this talk page ("Is RIT in Rochester?") reflects this ignorance.
"This category is meant to include files from the entire history of RIT, not just the present day."	You state that as if categorizing Category:Rochester Institute of Technology in Category:Universities and colleges in Rochester, New York isn't 100% misleading. You state that as if predecessor Category:Rochester Athenæum and Mechanics Institute (which wasn't a college or university) doesn't exist. You state that as if Category:Rochester Institute of Technology isn't already in Category:Universities and colleges in Monroe County, New York, making the addition of Category:Universities and colleges in Rochester, New York a violation of COM:OVERCAT. You state that as if you're completely helpless and incapable of creating a more accurate category Category:Universities and colleges formerly in Rochester, New York, which, by the way would be as useless as Category:Universities and colleges in Rochester, New York since there would be at most three subcategories. And it would be the only category of its kind ("Universities and colleges formerly in").
"Why shouldn't it be included in the Rochester, New York category?"	*It's misleading and perpetuates a demonstrably false belief. *Given Category:Rochester Institute of Technology's longstanding categorization in Category:Universities and colleges in Monroe County, New York, adding Category:Universities and colleges in Rochester, New York violates COM:OVERCAT. *Category:Universities and colleges in Rochester, New York never should have been created in the first place as it is and will only ever be a category of exactly one subcategory. *There are no images presently on Commons depicting RIT in the period 1944-1968 when it was actually named "The Rochester Institute of Technology" (as opposed to any of its former names during earlier periods). *Due to copyright law in force during that period, there are unlikely to be any images from that period uploaded to Commons.

Finally, let me point out that none of the images you categorized in Category:Rochester Institute of Technology yearbooks are RIT yearbooks--they're actually Rochester Athenæum and Mechanics Institute yearbook covers. -- DanielPenfield (talk) 11:55, 1 February 2022 (UTC)

There is no need for hostility or personal attacks. We both have a common goal of making improvements to Commons.

Although having RIT in both the "Rochester" and "Monroe County" categories would normally be COM:OVERCAT, in this case it would fall under the exceptions to that principle. RIT is a university that has, at times in its history, been located in both Rochester and Henrietta. Therefore, it should be located in both Universities and colleges in Rochester, New York and Universities and colleges in Henrietta, New York. Of course, the Henrietta category doesn't exist, so it has to go in the would-be parent category, Universities and colleges in Monroe County, New York.

I disagree with the notion that we shouldn't categorize RIT under Rochester just because we happen to not have any files from 1944–1968. It's useful to be able to find topics based on as many aspects of that topic as possible, even if we don't have files related to each of those aspects. For example, we have Tom Brady in Michigan Wolverines football players, even though we don't have any photos of him from his college years. However, to make the point moot, I have now uploaded several yearbook PDFs from 1944–1968; see Rochester Institute of Technology yearbooks.

I also disagree that this categorization is misleading. We categorize things based on former affiliations all the time; e.g. the Tom Brady example above.

I agree that Universities and colleges in Rochester, New York is probably not a category that needs to exist, and that a "formerly in Rochester" category would also be silly. However, even if Universities and colleges in Rochester, New York didn't exist, I would just be making the same argument in favor of adding RIT to Education in Rochester, New York.

Please let me know what you think. Cheers, IagoQnsi (talk) 02:52, 2 February 2022 (UTC)

Your claim	My response
"There is no need for hostility or personal attacks."	Now you're going to gaslight me into believing my response was a "personal attack"? If I review your editing history am I going to see a repeated pattern of you characterizing legitimate criticism as "personal attacks" just so you can get your own way? As for the accusation of "hostility", you've repeatedly and condescendingly lectured me on a fact that not only did you just learn, but it's also a fact to which I alerted you: [1], [2], [3]. You've leveled a second accusation of a "personal attack" which appears to be nothing more than a tactic to shut down any criticism. And then there's your original effort to compel me into accepting without question the assertion that "they are recognized as being in Rochester, even if they are not within the legal bounds". In addition, you repeatedly use the royal "We" to pretend that you've got some uncountable army of supporters to help you compel me into this acceptance. You're behaving exactly like one more master manipulator who knows how to get his own way 100% of the time through the most skilled trickery.
"We both have a common goal of making improvements to Commons."	A categorization that perpetuates a demonstrably false claim is an "improvement"?
""Although having RIT in both the "Rochester" and "Monroe County" categories would normally be COM:OVERCAT, in this case it would fall under the exceptions to that principle."	Under what twisted logic?
"RIT is a university that has, at times in its history, been located in both Rochester and Henrietta."	Yes, you keep patronizingly lecturing me on that fact--a fact that you just learned two days ago when I alerted you to it in this edit.
"Therefore, it should be located in both Universities and colleges in Rochester, New York and Universities and colleges in Henrietta, New York. Of course, the Henrietta category doesn't exist..."	You keep making these outrageous claims. Category:Universities and colleges in Henrietta, New York should never be created because it would only ever hold one subcategory, just like Category:Universities and colleges in Rochester, New York never should have been created.
"I disagree with the notion that we shouldn't categorize RIT under Rochester just because we happen to not have any files from 1944–1968."	Pretending that RIT is "in Rochester" perpetuates a demonstrably false belief. If one were to express this relationship as "former", then one would be 100% accurate.
"It's useful to be able to find topics based on as many aspects of that topic as possible, even if we don't have files related to each of those aspects."	Now you've re-revealed your true intent: "they are recognized as being in Rochester, even if they are not within the legal bounds"
"For example, we have Tom Brady in Michigan Wolverines football players, even though we don't have any photos of him from his college years."	You write that as if differentiating "current" vs. "former" is an impossible task and you want me to unquestioningly accept the status quo even though the status quo is misleading in the majority of cases because most sports teams are going to have a lot more former members than current ones.
"However, to make the point moot, I have now uploaded several yearbook PDFs from 1944–1968; see Rochester Institute of Technology yearbooks."	Congratulations, all of the images from 1978 onward are non-free under the Copyright Act of 1976. Wikicommons accepts only free media unless it's uploaded by high-volume editors, in which case everybody just looks the other way.
"We categorize things based on former affiliations all the time"	Yes, but not in a way that is misleading and perpetuates a demonstrably false belief.
"However, even if Universities and colleges in Rochester, New York didn't exist, I would just be making the same argument in favor of adding RIT to Education in Rochester, New York."	You're still clinging to "they are recognized as being in Rochester, even if they are not within the legal bounds", and I understand that you're trying really hard to make it look like that's not the case.

-- DanielPenfield (talk) 09:37, 2 February 2022 (UTC)

@DanielPenfield: Hi, I'd like to revisit this. The status quo on Commons is that we categorize things based on former and current affiliations. Whether or not that status quo should change is a much larger discussion that you are welcome to take up at Commons:Village pump, but that's how things work right now. Thus, I believe this category belongs in the Rochester, New York category on that basis. As for why this doesn't violate OVERCAT, please see the exceptions to OVERCAT. Just as a photo of Angela Merkel and other German politicians belongs in both "Category:Angela Merkel" and "Category:Politicians from Germany", so too does a school that has been located in both Rochester and non-Rochester parts of Monroe County belong in both "Category:Universities and colleges in Rochester, New York" and "Category:Universities and colleges in Monroe County, New York".

Another point I'd like to posit is that RIT's mailing address is "1 Lomb Memorial Dr, Rochester, NY 14623". There are many different ways that society defines "Rochester, New York". Some of them are strict legal boundaries that exclude RIT, while others are more permissive/loose and do include RIT. Our goal is to make things as easy to find as possible, so prescribing to an overly-strict definition of what is/isn't in a particular city seems counterproductive. –IagoQnsi (talk) 16:51, 21 February 2022 (UTC)