Commons talk:Deletion requests/Template:Eurocoins

Comments after deletion request was closed

Good grief people. Expand your horizons beyond Wikipedia. There are provisions for use of euro coin images made by the European Central Bank. [1]

Wake up. Take a look outside for a minute. You might find what you're looking for!

The copyright protection referenced above applies to working papers, policy papers and any other works that are produced by the ECB. Images of coins cannot, in practice or theory, be copyrighted. They are in the public domain by definition.

As evidence of this statement, look no further than the ECB website (link above). They themselves provide images of the euro coins for download.

The copyright extends only to the point where exchange of monies might take place for the images. If you have constructed a website or designed a pamphlet which uses images of euro coins, and then sell the resulting production, one must indicate that the images contained therein are available free of charge and that any money that is required for purchase is collected for the surrounding or contextual medium in which the images reside.

Is there anything about what I have said that is confusing or otherwise unclear?

—-Theeuro 09:11, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

Dear Theeuro, clearer is impossible. People here in Commons use to see problems where they do not exist, and seem "plus royalistes que le roi". It's really a pity and a waste of time... I uploaded the coin images and took care to copy the copyright disclaimer from the ECB, so that anyone could see it was OK to copy the coins. Besides that, I do not understand why the images were deleted if 4 people argued for the deletion and 4 against it... And also why the uploader (me) was not informed that the images were subject to deletion. Do not expect to see me upload any picture to Commons again. Regards, Mschlindwein 09:12, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

Please understand that Commons does not require the legality of the pictures, but that the pictures have been released under a free license. That's a lot more than mere legality. See COM:L. --rtc 17:12, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

Rtc, please note that the BCE conditions as less restrictive (or as restrictive as) GFDL. One also must give credit to the images' authors with GFDL, and no one considers this as "restrictive" and no one argues that this condition makes the pictures "non free". Explain me please in what the fact that informing that the BCE images can be dowloaded for free from the BCE website (in case of commercial use) is more restrictive than having to give credits to the images' authors everytime you use a GFDL image. What I see is that GFDL is more restrictive than the BCE condition (or as restrictive as), and that nobody ever thought about deleting GFDL images using the argument that their licence is restrictive and makes them "no free" (as I could read in the main page of this article). It's all non sense and an enormous waste of time, sorry to say that. Mschlindwein 22:18, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

Mschlindwein, I understand that it is annoying to find the images you uploaded deleted. But

• The license does say that the user must be informed, before paying for the media in question, that the images can be found free of charge at the website. I think this would be problematic

• Problematic for whom? I agree that it is easier to have a disclaimer suggesting that the images are available free of charge than to have a website or collection cited that may not be there in 5 or 10 years. Please answer the question posed above regarding the difference in citing the two sources. --Theeuro 08:46, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

• Eventhough 4 people voted for keep, none of them gave any arguments why the license was acceptable.

Fred Chess 22:36, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

Exactly, and not only that, they introduce ideological conditions that the pictures must not be used in a way defaming the Euro (so I cannot use them for a "The euro sucks" page), and their conditions double-restrict forgery by their copyright law, in addition to the restriction already imposed by criminal law. So if I forge the coins, not only have I to face a criminal case and go to jail, but I also face a civil case in which I have to pay additional damages. --rtc 23:01, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

• Have you any idea how difficult it would be to replicate a coin from a picture? For the love of all that is reasonable, if it were worth the time and effort to fake a euro coin, there would be holograms, watermarks, elaborate barcodes, microfibres and the like on them just like on the banknotes!
• Who cares about ideology? This is an encyclopedia. The idea is to educate and perhaps begin discussion. Not turn one view against the other. That is the job of the church. The fact of the matter is that while I hold the beleif that the euro is itself a great thing- there is a growing number of people who do think that the 'euro sucks'. That should not play any role in deletion of images.
• The restriction is not in place to prevent defaming the idea of the euro, only the face of the euro. So no, it is not OK to replace the portrait of Grand Duke Henri with that of Vladamir Putin. And it is not OK to replace the '10 euro cent' text with '10 fun cent'. Good grief people- THINK!!!.

I restate that the ECB allows use of their images in this medium. That a deletion happy editor didn't understand the admitedly complex language of the ECB, should not cause the articles regarding the euro to go without images.

Now bring the images back!!

—-Theeuro 08:46, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

So we basically agree that these restrictions are in place. First of all, we are not an encyclopedia. Commons is a general media repository. And we accept only pictures that are free in the sense that I actually may replace it with "10 fun cent" and with Putin's face, and that I may reproduce it (as far as copyright is concerned), regardless of whether the reproduction is hard to do or not. See COM:L for which restrictions are permitted, namely "Acknowledgement of all authors/contributors of a work may be required.", "Publication of derivative work under the same license may be required.", and "Use of open file formats free of digital restrictions management may be required." The license clearly has restrictions which fall into neither of these categories. I completely agree that the ECB allows use of their images in this medium. However, Commons requires pictures to be free for anyone, not merely legal in the context of their actual use in Wikipedia. This has been stressed again recently in Foundation:Resolution:Licensing policy --rtc 16:29, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

Let me try this from a different direction... Let us imagine John has taken a picture of a French 2 euro coin (font and back), then uploaded it to Commons and then uses it in Wikipedia for an article. Now let us imagine that Jane sees this photograph, puts Putin's face on the front and 10 fun cent on the back. Nancy sees the photograph and uses the front photograph in an advert for her French style restaurant. Donald uses the photograph to reproduce an identical coin to that of the photograph and produces a euro coin with Putin's face on the front. The actions that both Jane and Donald have taken are all illegal. John and Nancy are in the clear ONLY if they have stated that the images of the euro coins that they have used can be found free of charge on the European Central Bank website and/or can be obtained by contacting the European Central Bank. This is regardless of who produces images of the euro coins, what they use those images for and where the images are located. ANY image of the euro coins used in any medium, produced in any way, no matter by whom, must accompany the statement that the images can be obtained through the ECB.

• No matter who takes a picture of a euro coin and no matter what they say you are allowed to do with it, the actual image of the euro coin can not be tampered with or otherwise changed, in any way.
• No person- in any circumstance is permitted or allowed to alter the image of the euro coin.
• There are laws in place to see to it that this does not happen and one faces some rather serious legal penalties for violations of these laws.

The euro coin design itself is an artistic expression, but as you say above, "Acknowledgement of all authors/contributors of a work may be required." This is already taken care of because the work is signed in the form of initials of the original designer on every euro coin is present.

I mean, you do realise that every monetary body in the entire world, which issues coins and banknotes for circulation, have their own restrictions on what one can and can not do with the images of their coins- regardless of who took the picture or created the image? China only allows reproductions of their coinage if the resulting reproduction is half the size of the actual coin. The US and UK allow for alterations of images of their coinage provided that the alteration occurs in less than 49% of the total surface area of the coin.

Let me address the idea that the images originate on the ECB website. The images are not owned by the ECB. The images of the euro coins that you have on your computer after having downloaded them from the ECB website are not the property of the ECB website and nobody from the ECB produced those images. They are in the public domain. This is true no matter what image of a euro coin one may happen upon. Should a person decide to capture the sight of euro coins in the Trevi Fountain in Rome, by snapping a phtograph, it would hold in court that this image is now in the public domain, but only if 51% of the photograph is of euro coins.

I just want to restate the following:

• Images of the euro coins no matter who produced them, no matter where they are from, are in the public domain.
• Alterations of euro coin images are prohibited in any and all forms.
• When euro coin images are used- no matter where they originate from or who created them, as long as they are exact replicas- a statement that the images can be obtained free of charge through the ECB must accompany these images. (This is so that when you see the image of the euro coin in any medium, you know it is the genuine article and not a forgery or alteration, because that statement is alongside the image.)

Perhaps the Commons should re-examine the handling of images of currency. Clearly there are inconsistencies (which basically is the sourse of my ire). For example, the image found here is not deleted nor is it nominated for deletion... yet it contains the very text of the license that we are discussing, which has been said is insufficient and improper and does not fit with Commons requirements regarding images. So how, then, is this image OK, and the others were not?

—-Theeuro 05:45, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

Please do not mix copyright and criminal law. And if you assume that the coins are copyrighted and may be used only under the permission you refer to, the consequence is clear: The coins are not free works, and hence no picture of any coin at all may be uploaded to commons. You can use them under fair use in your local Wikipedia. It's that easy! --rtc 16:28, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

Get glasses.

• I'm not mixing copyright law and criminal law.
• No assumptions have been made regarding the copyright status of euro coin images.
• What I am suggestesting is that Commons employ a seperate set of standards when it comes to images of coinage in circulation.

Is rtc allowed to nominate files for deletion? It seems rtc is not mature nor objective enough to bare the responsibility of such action. rtc has no talk page and therefore can not receive comments and questions on/of his/her actions.

Just a thought. --Theeuro 22:00, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

So "Alterations of euro coin images are prohibited in any and all forms" but "No assumptions have been made regarding the copyright status of euro coin images"? I do not see what you mean. What is your argument based on? Is it based on coypright law or is it based on criminal law? --rtc 00:33, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

Copyrights of Euro-coins

The copyright of the "common side" of the euro coins belongs to the European Commission. They are pretty permissive, but they don't permit usages that might "damage or detract from the image of the euro", which is incompatible with the commons:

""" The Wikimedia Commons only accepts free content, that is, images and other media files that can be used by anyone, for any purpose """

For more details, see COM 2001 600 final and this blog commentary. The copyrights for the country-specific side of the euro coins apparently belongs to national agencies. — Ksero 15:50, 27 May 2007 (UTC)