Commons talk:Village pump

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Daily section headings[edit]

@Steinsplitter: @Hazard-SJ: Your bots are both adding the daily section headings to this page. There should only be one. :P [1] [2]. Matma Rex (talk) 00:50, 9 February 2016 (UTC)

Hazard-Bot was down for months with no reaction from Hazard-SJ (likely a year ago or moor?). I have taken over the task. Looks like it is back again so i switched off my bot for now. --Steinsplitter (talk) 10:54, 9 February 2016 (UTC)

"Pages with maps"[edit]

Anyone know why Commons:Village pump is currently in the redlinked Category:Pages with maps? - Jmabel ! talk 15:33, 17 June 2016 (UTC)

Commons:Village_pump#Maps_are_now_LIVE_on_Commons_:.29? --Zhuyifei1999 (talk) 16:03, 17 June 2016 (UTC)

Aha! So why is it redlinked? - Jmabel ! talk 16:16, 17 June 2016 (UTC)

Nobody has created a category description yet.Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 16:17, 17 June 2016 (UTC)

Village pumps for other languages[edit]

Why are we linking to a list of "Village pumps for other languages" instead of simply showing the list (by transcluding the template)? This would seem to defeat the purpose of the template in the first place, since readers will have to understand the English message to get to the list that may contain the language they know. - dcljr (talk) 20:15, 27 September 2017 (UTC)

@dcljr: The link is only shown for users who are using en-gb as their UI-language under their settings, for others the template is transcluded. fdms4 made the change (diff) and explained his action at Template talk:Lang-VP.--Snaevar (talk) 23:54, 25 October 2017 (UTC)
Okay, I didn't notice the changes to the template itself before, but that just means that there are two different bad ways that we are linking to the other-language VPs: logged-out users and logged-in English users see the link I described above, while logged-in non-English users get a link to the VP in their selected language (if one exists) and/or a link to the English VP (a bold non-link if they're already viewing the English VP), and a little "globe" Unicode character (🌐) that not everyone will even be able to see but everyone is expected to understand leads to a list of other languages. This is not exactly "multilingual friendly"… - dcljr (talk) 02:47, 28 October 2017 (UTC)
  • +1 to dcljr- Jmabel ! talk 04:04, 28 October 2017 (UTC)
Responded on the template talkpage. Logged-out users with non-English UI languages get internationalised links to their language's VP the same way logged-in users do, so I do believe this is absolutely "multilingual friendly".    FDMS  4    09:36, 28 October 2017 (UTC)
  • There seems to be a strong assumption here that people are either monolingual or speak one (presumably native) language plus English. - Jmabel ! talk 15:27, 28 October 2017 (UTC)

I [dcljr] have decided to continue this discussion here instead of on the template page for the same reason I started the discussion here: this concerns the appearance of the VP (and the other pages the template is transcluded on) more than the appearance of the template page itself. Here's the relevant dicsussion from Template talk:Lang-VP#Why only English and own language?:

@FDMS4: You changed this template to show only English and interface language. These templates are to easily change between localized VPs. For example, I use Hungarian interface and want to reach the Czech VP (happened). I could do this before. Now I can’t. Why? --Tacsipacsi (talk) 08:35, 1 August 2015 (UTC)

@Tacsipacsi: You can reach a list of all VP languages by simply clicking on the globe icon. I think the advantages of this solution (new and experienced users having easier access to the almost always only relevant pages) outweigh the "cost" of this one additional click in this rather uncommon scenario. FDMS 4 14:30, 1 August 2015 (UTC)
@FDMS4: The "cost" is more than a click. The way the template is currently implemented means no one sees the full list of languages unless they follow a link, and that link may be either on English text (which they may have trouble reading) or on a little "globe" Unicode character (🌐), which they may not be able to see (not everyone has a font containing that character). I would suggest we revert this template back to showing the full list of languages and use the "language magic" to simply emphasize the link for the detected language. - dcljr (talk) 02:55, 28 October 2017 (UTC)
@Dcljr: The long list of languages not taking up a significant portion of the screen and thus making other important header instructions invisible is expected behaviour, please explain the concrete problems you believe this has led to. Unicode characters are widely used on project pages, headers and even as category sortkeys, and the globe Unicode character seems to be available to almost all if not all of our visitors. If you believe the use of Unicode characters in general has caused specific problems to arise, please bring this up at a more global venue (such as the VP); should a proposal to replace them by text or files on Commons get required consensus we can easily replace the globe character by a translatewiki-translated {{int:}} text label or a Commons file like the icon used for other languages in the mobile MediaWiki interface. FDMS 4 09:27, 28 October 2017 (UTC)

As I said in my comment of 02:55, 28 October 2017, I would prefer that the template show all the languages again, not just provide different link text.

The stated justifications (that I've seen) for not showing the full list are:

  1. it is a "response to regular non-English posts on the main VP" (stated in an edit summary)
  2. it is more convenient for users to have only one language shown with a link to other languages;
  3. the full list of languages take up too much space.

I can't judge the merits of the first justification, since I don't spend a lot of time here on the VP. The second justification was questioned by Tacsipacsi quite soon after the change was made, but the concerns were dismissed as an "uncommon scenario". (In fact, no one knows how common it is.) As for the third justification, even if the full list were shown on the English VP at full size, on my screen that would take up 3 lines, or about 8% of the visible screen space (vertically), a very small portion of the 2 full screens of "header" material from the top of the page to the TOC. I can't speak to what mobile users would see, but I can't imagine the difference would be very great.

The arguments in favor of using the full list and/or against using the reduced list in its current form include:

  1. the full list does not, in fact, take up an unreasonable amount of space, nor does it distract significantly from the other instructions at the top of the page;
  2. the full list is clearly understandable as a list of languages to almost all users, and most users will see one or more languages they can read in the list;
  3. if everyone sees the full list, there is less chance of any particular user seeing "the wrong thing" (as implied by the following items);
  4. not everyone browses the site in their preferred, native language;
  5. not everyone restricts their attention to discussions in one language;
  6. not all users find it "convenient" for options to be hidden from their view;
  7. the target of the "globe" link, Template:Lang-VP, gives little indication of what it's for, so some users may not understand its significance (unless they follow the link);
  8. some users may not even see a globe character.

For all of these reasons, I ask that the template be reverted back to showing all languages in the list when transcluded. If desired, language detection can be used to provide tailored label text ("Village pumps for other languages" in the various languages) and possibly to emphasize the detected language in some way, but it should not be used to hide any languages from view. What say other users? - dcljr (talk) 02:46, 29 October 2017 (UTC)

I prefer the simple list. On this page I can't find the other languages any longer. And on the French Bistro I only found it because this discussion says that the link exists. But I only see German and English (because I indicates the languages in babel?). When you click on the globe you come to Template:Lang-VP. Do you really think many people know what vp means? (vampire diary, vice president, maybe vodka pomme, or something new like voice print?) If I want to contact someone from another country a list is easier to use. Traumrune (talk) 23:04, 31 October 2017 (UTC)
Agree with all Dcljr's arguments. Using links to other languages is my common scenario. --Wikinade (talk) 15:11, 8 November 2017 (UTC)