File talk:Ensign of Austro-Hungarian civil fleet (1869-1918).svg

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No fake please[编辑]

Here you can see just a version of the real Flag and its crown. No fake please. --Nicola Romani (talk) 10:41, 14 June 2010 (UTC)[回复]

Continue talk here. --B1mbo (talk) 18:27, 16 June 2010 (UTC)[回复]
That’s just the Austria half not all of AH this is a real flag not a fake one Akedolover26 (留言) 06:51, 17 December 2023 (UTC)[回复]

Please stop the reversions — both can and should exist[编辑]

Please stop the interchange and reversion of this file. Both files are able to exist on Commons, and from there, users can make up their own mind. This reversion pattern is not sustainable.  — billinghurst sDrewth 12:26, 27 December 2013 (UTC)[回复]

Valid[编辑]

{{Edit request}}

Please add…
|other fields={{igen|I|v|+}}
…to the {{information}} rows.

I is for Inkscape, v is for valid, and + is for the nested {{information|other fields={{igen|I|v|+}}}} usage. Alternatively you could also unprotect the file page, only the image needs protection against more upload/revert cycles.:tongue: –2.247.244.29 13:29, 2 October 2017 (UTC)[回复]

✓ 完成 -- User: Perhelion 01:03, 4 October 2017 (UTC)[回复]

Edit request[编辑]

{{Edit request}}

I want request upload a new version from File:Flag of Austria-Hungary (1869-1918) fixed.svg, and I also requested to Requested updates to protected images. Thank you. --Tcfc2349 (留言) 00:50, 12 December 2018 (UTC)[回复]

✓ 完成 Awesome! Thank you! jdx Re: 10:55, 21 December 2018 (UTC)[回复]

Upload request[编辑]

{{Edit request}}

I want request upload a new version from File:Flag of Austria-Hungary (1869-1918) (1).svg, and I also requested to Requested updates to protected images. I made some modifications and optimized. Thank you. --Tcfc2349 (留言) 10:22, 3 October 2019 (UTC)[回复]

Please correct your file first after my answer to your similar request. -- User: Perhelion 21:15, 5 October 2019 (UTC)[回复]
@Perhelion: I responded to the discussion and modified the file accordingly. --Tcfc2349 (留言) 01:44, 6 October 2019 (UTC)[回复]
This file also modified the code. --Tcfc2349 (留言) 04:12, 6 October 2019 (UTC)[回复]
✓ 完成 Thank you! -- User: Perhelion 17:52, 6 October 2019 (UTC)[回复]

Upload request again[编辑]

{{Edit request}}

I want request upload a new version from File:Flag of Austria-Hungary (1869-1918) (2).svg. Because I checked the file and found a error in the Hungarian arms and fixed it. Thank you. --Tcfc2349 (留言) 17:12, 10 October 2019 (UTC)[回复]

✓ 完成 Thank you! -- User: Perhelion 19:00, 12 October 2019 (UTC)[回复]

File rename request reverted as per sources[编辑]

@Fry1989: and @Dragovit: This flag has been drafted likely the originals! Due to this I have reverted the File name request as per sources:

I can provide more sources but this ones are enough. The fake flag drafted by B1mbo has been spammed among other Wikipedia but the factual accuracy bring to this one. --Nicola Romani (留言) 00:16, 8 December 2020 (UTC)[回复]

I don't question the authenticity of the flag, but it's name. Correctly it's the civil maritime ensign of Austria-Hugary, not flag of the monarchy! Renaming the flag is necessary, a lot of people consider it a state flag. Just rename it like this version "Civil Ensign of Austria-Hungary (1869–1918).svg" --Dragovit (talk) 10:17, 8 December 2020 (UTC)[回复]
More sources: [1]; [2]; [3]; [4]; [5]; [6]; [7]. Sometimes civil and merchant flag are the same, e.g. the USA, the Russian, the Japanese, the Chinese etc. --Nicola Romani (留言) 14:08, 8 December 2020 (UTC)[回复]
Of course. The file should be called civil ensign, not "flag". --Dragovit (talk) 15:41, 8 December 2020 (UTC)[回复]

File rename request, renaming the file is necessary (December 2020)[编辑]

The request to rename this file was resent. In fact, it's the civil/merchant maritime ensign of Austria-Hugararian merchant navy, not flag of the monarchy. Lot of people consider it a state/national flag of Austria-Hungary, but it's incorrect and historically inaccurate. Austria-Hungary has never used this as a state/national flag, it's necessary to be renamed. There isn't reason to keep the current name of the file. Just rename it like this version "Civil Ensign of Austria-Hungary (1869–1918).svg" --Dragovit (talk) 10:25, 8 December 2020 (UTC)[回复]

 反对. As per sources. --Nicola Romani (留言) 14:09, 8 December 2020 (UTC)[回复]
What should those sources prove? It's a civil ensign and the file should be called a "civil ensign". Please don't remove the request to rename the file. --Dragovit (talk) 15:43, 8 December 2020 (UTC)[回复]
I'm declining the request for now, as it's controversial. Please establish consensus first. If needed, you can ask at the village pump for a third opinion. Thanks, pandakekok9 02:35, 20 December 2020 (UTC)[回复]
As "controversial" is the inaccurate name of this "flag" (correctly civil ensign) and the fact, that is misleading and therefore still appears in places where it has nothing to do. --Dragovit (talk) 16:53, 14 December 2020 (UTC)[回复]

Sources for the use of flags in practice. A "little" more serious than the postcards shown before... You see any civil ensign there? No? :) It happens because this flag was not a "national flag", but a civilian ensign, and the filename should be corrected. These are just examples and there are many more...

  • But if you really like postcards...
  • Or paintings...
  • And here you have the real use of this flag:

I can spam this endlessly, but the fact is that the current filename is misleading. The case of the Austro-Hungarian flags was complicated but putting the civilian ensign as the "state flag" is incorrect (although it is a very popular mistake in modern popular culture) Sumek101 (留言) 16:00, 17 December 2021 (UTC)[回复]

I'm going to decline this (again). As far as I am aware (and Wikipedia doesn't disagree), a civil ensign is a kind of flag. Therefore, the filename is correct. This may not be the flag of Austria-Hungary, but it's certainly a flag of Austria-Hungary. Sumek101 above quotes the phrases "national flag" and "state flag", but "national" and "state" appear nowhere in the file name. --bjh21 (留言) 14:29, 15 January 2022 (UTC)[回复]
Oh, and there was a second reason: the proposed name was too similar to the existing File:Civil ensign of Austria-Hungary (1869-1918).svg. --bjh21 (留言) 14:51, 15 January 2022 (UTC)[回复]
”Flag of Russia”?
”Flag of USA”?
@Bjh21: I don't agree with your arguments. The phrase "Flag of something" (in the context of the state ) strongly suggests that it is something official like "Flag of Germany", "Flag of Italy" etc. Therefore, when reporting the problem, I used criterion 2 „To change from a meaningless or ambiguous name to a name that describes what the image particularly displays”. The name "Flag of Austria-Hungary" (in the context of "one of the flags of Austria-Hungary) can be used for several dozen other flags like Flag of Bosnia (1908–1918).svg, Flag of Hungary (1915-1918), Flag of Imperial Free City of Trieste etc. None of the other Austro-Hungarian flags uses the misleading name "Flag of Austria-Hungary", and each is shown under the exact name of what they refer to. So why insisting on making an exception for this flag? This is ensign which I supported by the source when reporting. If we rename this ensign as „Flag of Russia” or this as „Flag of USA” will we not be a ridiculous? The proposed name was too similar to the existing file- ok, I understand, I will rename it to a different (not similar) name. I'm going to rename it again. My notification meets all formal requirements, is based on the source, is logical and dictated by concern for the merits. Again decline this, is unjustified and I am afraid it may be dictated by the will to push through a subjective version of the history of this country. Sumek101 (留言) 19:05, 16 January 2022 (UTC)[回复]

File rename request, renaming the file is necessary[编辑]

@Nihonjoe: Well, I'm starting the discussion again at your request to get "consensus". Please provide substantive arguments based on sources that undermine the source presented by me in the change name request ([8], [9]). Please show Austro-Hungarian documents stating that this graphic not represents "Austro-Hungarian Civil Ensign" but "Flag of Austria-Hungary". Sumek101 (留言) 21:05, 8 June 2022 (UTC)[回复]

I don't think you understand how things work here. The onus is on you to prove why the file should be moved. Demanding that it be moved because you have "THE MOST RELIABLE AND IRREFUTABLE PRIMARY SOURCE AVAILABLE EVER" is not likely to persuade people, especially since you keep tagging it for moving when told it's not going to be moved.
Tagging @Jonteemil, Bjh21, Estopedist1, and Elli: since they've worked on this previously. ···日本穣 Talk to Nihonjoe 21:51, 8 June 2022 (UTC)[回复]

@Nihonjoe: "Prove why the file should be moved" - list of reliable sources stating that it is a "civil ensign". In none of them there is even a suggestion that it may be the "flag of Austria-Hungary":

Sumek101 (留言) 22:36, 8 June 2022 (UTC)[回复]

  • There is also the Orgelbrand Encyclopedia from 1899 but I can't find link to the full scanned volume right now. However, there is a scanned page from this book available on the commons that also proves it is a civil ensign. I hope that the further search for original books and documents will not be necessary just because someone once threw some postcards into the discussion here, which have grown to the rank of "irrefutable sources" Sumek101 (留言) 23:30, 8 June 2022 (UTC)[回复]

I almoust forget about one more important source:

  • Encyclopedia Britannica from 1911 , which is available on wikisource vol. 10; article: flags. There, too, this flag is described as a civil ensign and not as the "flag of Austria-Hungary". Contrary to the United Kingdom, where the "national flag" is clearly described as a union jack (in the case of Austria-Hungary, this type of statement is nowhere to be found).
  • Webster’s New Illustrated Dictionary from 1911, page 406. - the same situation, no "Flag of Austria-Hungary", only shows imperial standard, war ensign, and civil ensign. Sumek101 (留言) 07:52, 9 June 2022 (UTC)[回复]
Important note: if the sources of such validity are not sufficient, I regret to inform you that my time machine is currently under repair and in the near future I will not be able to visit Franz Joseph and ask him why he did not use this ensign as a national flag ;) Sumek101 (留言) 09:23, 9 June 2022 (UTC)[回复]

@Nihonjoe, Jonteemil, Bjh21, and Estopedist1: . It's been almost half a year and no one has spoken. Do you still intend to block file renaming? By a misleading name this file is used massively outside of Wikipedia with being presented as "austro-hungarian state flag". The popularity of this file makes it perpetuate a bizarre myth about the Austro-Hungarian national flag. This should be rectified immediately. Almost half a year ago I presented a series of evidence proving that it was a merchant navy ensign with no relation to the national or state flag (as the misleading name suggests). I'm going to resubmit the request, and given the amount of sources presented (especially Austro-Hungarian government documents), further rejection of the request will be an abuse. Sumek101 (留言) 12:07, 24 November 2022 (UTC)[回复]

@Richardkiwi: Please explain why you think renaming the file is not in line with the guidelines? The current name of the file is misleading, which I clearly proved by referring to sources from the era. The request meets criterion 2: 

To change from a meaningless or ambiguous name to a name that describes what the image particularly displays. 
Example shown: File:Paris 319.jpg  -> File:Paris 75018 Rue Norvins no 018 Le Consulat z.jpg 
by analogy: File:Flag of Austria-Hungary - > File:Ensign of Austro-Hungarian civil fleet

The current name of the file is generic and confusing, the rename request is to clarify what it really represents. This is an exact fulfillment of the criterion. Sumek101 (留言) 08:53, 26 November 2022 (UTC)[回复]

In addition, as the source of this graphic is presented a blog/site, where this flag is also presented as MERCHANT ENSIGN. Uploading this file to wikimedia under this made-up name was therefore a mistake from the begining. I don't understand your unjustified stubbornness about pushing a non substantive and misleading name for many people. Sumek101 (留言) 09:49, 26 November 2022 (UTC)[回复]

The file is used on 18,000 pages worldwide. Some caution is then advised. I made the decision and will not discuss it (again). Apparently, few users are affected, except here on Wikimedia Commons. If you disagree, you can submit the file again for renaming. Please provide a link to the general discussion and to my answer if you make a new request. Sincerely, - Richardkiwi (talk) (留言) 14:47, 26 November 2022 (UTC)[回复]
Feel free to submit it for renaming again, but make sure you provide a link to this discussion so whoever handles it can take it into consideration. ···日本穣 Talk to Nihonjoe 17:28, 28 November 2022 (UTC)[回复]
Why do you repeat what I say? Also, you forgot to 'jump in' with a  : .. Have a good one, Sincerely, - Richardkiwi (talk) (留言) 11:27, 29 November 2022 (UTC)[回复]
Of course, I will repeat the request as soon as I have time to describe it exhaustively (again). Of course I don't know what obstacles will be invented this time, but I will try. Sumek101 (留言) 14:45, 1 December 2022 (UTC)[回复]
取自“https://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=File_talk:Ensign_of_Austro-Hungarian_civil_fleet_(1869-1918).svg&oldid=831447786”