File talk:Georgia Topography.png
De facto Borders[編輯]
This map is about topography of Georgia, it is not a political map, it doesn't shows even cities, roads and capital, so there is no need in showing in topography de facto borders of conflict regions. What need in it, it is topography, mountains, rivers, elevations and etc. there is no place for political issues. Some users think that de facto borders must be included in every map about Georgia but this is nonsense. Also author of this file uploaded it without de facto borders and only two users Bestalex and Leftcry are against four users Me, Sadalmelik, Keverich1, Maphobbyist. Some users don't understand NPOV, promotion of "de facto borders of conflict regions" is not NPOV, moreover in cases when there is no sense in this. --g. balaxaZe★ 20:56, 2 February 2015 (UTC)
- The file was uploaded before the full de facto independence of Abkhazia and South Ossetia, which is why once they got independence Bestalex added them to the map. As long as there are borders present on the map, then it is political and political maps of Georgia must include the disputed borders of the partially-recognized republics. That is the only NPOV option. --Leftcry (對話) 00:32, 3 February 2015 (UTC)
- That lines on the map, shows internationally widely recognized borders, this doesn't make map political, it just for orientation to know, where international borders goes. This map is about Georgia (with its sovereign borders), and not about "Georgia and its conflict regions", you won't find even one academic topographic map about Georgia with conflict regions, its nonsense in this topic.--g. balaxaZe★ 07:56, 3 February 2015 (UTC)
- The fact that you keep calling it "conflict regions" is already POV pushing. On Wikipedia and Commons they are regarded as partially-recognized states for NPOV. The fact that their borders are dotted is what indicates that they are disputed, it is always important to include disputed borders and regions on maps for NPOV. Georgia's borders are disputed and its territorial claims are still not entirely recognized. Please stop POV pushing. --Leftcry (對話) 08:10, 3 February 2015 (UTC)
- Sadalmelik also never stated his stance on this, his version of the map was uploaded before the entire independence and partial recognition of the two break-away states so you can't decide his opinion for him by claiming he is against including disputed borders. --Leftcry (對話) 08:12, 3 February 2015 (UTC)
- At first, NPOV is not applied here on Commons in the way it does on Wikipedia (see COM:NPOV). It's out of Commons's scope to decide which version should be placed in Wikipedia articles. That's just a prerogative of a correspondig community from a corresponding Wikipedia edition. Second, it's a kind of disrespect to the original uploader by edit warring and uploading a new version with your POV without his/her permission. Want a different version? There is a beautiful thing called Commons:Derivative works. You can freely upload your version with a different name. –BruTe Talk 11:02, 3 February 2015 (UTC)
- The problem with uploading another file is that this file is already used on many articles and Wikipedia will require an NPOV version (a version with disputed regions), which means this file would have to be tediously replaced. It would be great to see the author's stance on this however he is no longer active on Commons. --Leftcry (對話) 02:28, 4 February 2015 (UTC)
- You could upload the other version as a seperate file, and then link it on this file in "other versions" with a note regarding the differences, and vice versa for the new upload. As for replacements, you can always use Commons:GlobalReplace. It works quickly, and will replace all usages automatically within seconds. You have to make sure the replacements wouldn't cause problems/disagreements on other wikis though. That likely isn't the case here. INeverCry 03:11, 4 February 2015 (UTC)
- NPOV version? Well, Leftcry, as I said above (and INeverCry is agreed, I guess), Commons is not an appropriate place to decide which map is much more neutral. And I don't think that global replace is the best option here since it might overweight the local community decision on using the version of the map. You should start a local discussion on every Wikipedia and try to reach the consensus on changing the map with your version. –BruTe Talk 11:31, 4 February 2015 (UTC)
- Leftcry, Please read COM:UPLOADWAR. -- Geagea (talk) 14:47, 5 February 2015 (UTC)
- BruTe, if you carefully read my comment I said "Wikipedia will require an NPOV version" as almost every language Wikipedia does regard placing disputed borders for partially-recognized states and disputed regions NPOV. The only exception I've seen so far for Abkhazia and South Ossetia is the Georgian Wikipedia. Before reverting I was not aware about GlobalReplace. Now that I do know about it there are no issues with uploading another file. --Leftcry (對話) 21:28, 5 February 2015 (UTC)
- Leftcry, Please read COM:UPLOADWAR. -- Geagea (talk) 14:47, 5 February 2015 (UTC)
- NPOV version? Well, Leftcry, as I said above (and INeverCry is agreed, I guess), Commons is not an appropriate place to decide which map is much more neutral. And I don't think that global replace is the best option here since it might overweight the local community decision on using the version of the map. You should start a local discussion on every Wikipedia and try to reach the consensus on changing the map with your version. –BruTe Talk 11:31, 4 February 2015 (UTC)
- You could upload the other version as a seperate file, and then link it on this file in "other versions" with a note regarding the differences, and vice versa for the new upload. As for replacements, you can always use Commons:GlobalReplace. It works quickly, and will replace all usages automatically within seconds. You have to make sure the replacements wouldn't cause problems/disagreements on other wikis though. That likely isn't the case here. INeverCry 03:11, 4 February 2015 (UTC)
- The problem with uploading another file is that this file is already used on many articles and Wikipedia will require an NPOV version (a version with disputed regions), which means this file would have to be tediously replaced. It would be great to see the author's stance on this however he is no longer active on Commons. --Leftcry (對話) 02:28, 4 February 2015 (UTC)
- At first, NPOV is not applied here on Commons in the way it does on Wikipedia (see COM:NPOV). It's out of Commons's scope to decide which version should be placed in Wikipedia articles. That's just a prerogative of a correspondig community from a corresponding Wikipedia edition. Second, it's a kind of disrespect to the original uploader by edit warring and uploading a new version with your POV without his/her permission. Want a different version? There is a beautiful thing called Commons:Derivative works. You can freely upload your version with a different name. –BruTe Talk 11:02, 3 February 2015 (UTC)
- That lines on the map, shows internationally widely recognized borders, this doesn't make map political, it just for orientation to know, where international borders goes. This map is about Georgia (with its sovereign borders), and not about "Georgia and its conflict regions", you won't find even one academic topographic map about Georgia with conflict regions, its nonsense in this topic.--g. balaxaZe★ 07:56, 3 February 2015 (UTC)
@Leftcry: I mentioned global replace as an available tool, but as I say above you should make sure the replacement isn't going to cause controversy. I would recommend against using it in this case since there's already disagreement/reverts here and a global replacement would very likely cause further problems. INeverCry 03:27, 6 February 2015 (UTC)
- In that case, I'll still upload a new image, at least for the English Wiki and link it to this file, so that people decide for themselves. --Leftcry (對話) 03:31, 6 February 2015 (UTC)
