File talk:Lombard state 526.png

SVG tag

I do not see a valid reason why SVG image tag should be used on this page. SVG version is very different from this PNG image and it is also of lower quality and lower accuracy. As an derivative work, the SVG image could be listed in "Other versions" sections, but I do not see why we should have here an tag that notify editors that they should use SVG version instead original PNG map. PANONIAN (talk) 09:52, 22 January 2012 (UTC)

I used the trace bitmap feature so it should be identical. Claiming that a raster is of higher quality than an SVG shows a lack of knowledge of vector graphics. Similarly, calling other's work "crappy" shows disrespect to them.--Rafy (talk) 14:34, 22 January 2012 (UTC)

OK, I already explained what is wrong with your SVG map here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:History_of_Slovakia#SVG_map (so, there is no reason to repeat that). Now, if you think that SVG version of this map is "better" than PNG version, please explain why. I do not see a single important advantage that SVG image might have. PANONIAN (talk) 15:21, 22 January 2012 (UTC)

And for the record, I highly disagree with all 4 points that indicating "advantages of SVG images" from this page: firstly, why we would need image "scalable to any size without loss of sharpness"? (note that SVG images could not be viewed with some image viewing softwares and therefore they are completely non-useful to people who using these softwares (and I am among those people). File size: the SVG version of this map might be a bit smaller than the PNG version (46 vs 51 KB), but this might be simply a consequence of the fact that SVG version was cropped and has less details (and by the way, Wikimedia Commons would be filed with much less KBs if PNG images are not converted to SVG formats at all i.e. the conversion of existing non-SVG images to SVG is what filing this site with unneeded KBs). I especially disagree with claim that SVG images "could be edited more easily". On the contrary, I find editing of SVG images very difficult especially because they could not be edited with Photoshop software, which is far superior in comparison with Inkscape that can modify SVG images. For me, modification of an PNG, JPG, GIF or any other image compatible with Photoshop is much more easy than modification of an SVG image. PANONIAN (talk) 15:41, 22 January 2012 (UTC)

Well we can argue all day about advantages and disadvantages of scalable graphics, the bottom line here is that Wikimedia is a free encyclopedia which doesn't endorse non-free software and that's why users are encouraged to try free alternatives such as GIMP and Inkscape. Scalable graphics are always considered a better alternative of raster, this is a conclusion shared unanimously by knowledgeable image editors. If you still what to use non-scalable image formats you can download different size PNGs from links under the image. I don't see why we should be concerned with saving bandwidth since no one is complaining about this issue. Editing SVG is much easier than what you think, editing text in images can be as easy as copy-pasting.--Rafy (talk) 16:36, 22 January 2012 (UTC)

That all, mister Rafy, is only your personal opinion. If users are "encouraged to use free software" they are certainly not obligated to use it. It is understandable if somebody creates completely new SVG image with Inkscape, but if we already have an good image created with more professional software, it is completely non-useful to re-create that image with crappy software such is Inkscape. As for your claim that "scalable graphics are always considered a better alternative of raster" and that such "conclusion is shared unanimously by knowledgeable image editors", I do not see evidence for such claim. I might consider myself "a knowledgeable image editor" (as I can do anything with any image using proper software) and I did not participated in an discussion about preferable file formats where such conclusion was made. And I know that SVG images can be downloaded in PNG format, but that is also part of the problem. I am collecting maps and currently I have more than 40,000 in my computer and therefore I know what I speak about: SVG maps that I downloaded in PNG format (and I always downloading them in that format) are generally of much worse quality than PNG, GIF or JPG maps that I have in my computer and there are some technical problems with these maps, such are overlapping letters or transparent background that reflects background color from my computer and makes some letters unreadable. And again: editing of SVG is not much easier than editing of PNG. I can do anything with PNG image, while I cannot change SVG image in a way I want. All in all, I created this PNG image free for use, which means that you was also free to draw an derivative SVG version of this map, but I am also free not to agree with inclusion of "SVGs are superior" tag on this page and with inclusion of your SVG image into articles that are on my watchlists (such is History of Slovakia). I understand that you also spent your free time to create that SVG image, but try to use it in some article where my PNG version is not already posted. Both these images could be used somewhere, and the way in which you simply tried to replace my image with yours in "History of Slovakia" is not exactly an example of friendly behavior and constructive cooperation. PANONIAN (talk) 18:16, 22 January 2012 (UTC)

Dubious

This map contradicts a whole set of other works about the history of Slovakia.

.. archeological research confirmed presence of the Lombards only in the Slovak Záhorie.

Bystrický, Peter (2008). Sťahovanie národov (454-568). Ostrogóti, Gepidi, Longobardi a Slovania [Migration of the nations (454-568). The Ostrogoths, Gepids, Lombards and the Slavs]. Bratislava: Slovak Academy of Sciences. p. 125. ISBN 978-80-970060-0-6.

Unlike Moravia, where (in addition to the Slavs who came there through the Moravian Gate) also the Lombards lived, present-day Slovakia (except Záhorie) did not belong to any German empire.

Steinhübel, Ján (2004). Nitrianske kniežatstvo [Dutchy of Nitra]. Slovania v susedstve Gepidov a Longobardov. [The Slavs in the neighborhood of the Gepids and the Lombards]. Bratislava: Veda, Slovak Academy of Sciences. p. 20. ISBN 80-224-0812-3.

Slavic newcomers settled in areas abandoned by Germans who left the country in the 5th century. Germans were present in a smaller part of our territory also in the 3rd quarter of the 6th century in western Slovakia (and Moravia).

Marsina, Richard (1995). Nové pohľady historickej vedy na slovenské dejiny. I. časť. Najstaršie obdobie slovenských dejín (do prelomu 9.-10. storočia) [New views of the historical science on the Slovak history. The oldest period of the Slovak history (until the 9th-10th century]]. Bratislava: Metodické centrum mesta Bratislavy. p. 2 ISBN 80-7164-069-7.

Around 510, Longobards defeated Heruls (...). Their expansion reached also south-western Slovakia.

Klein, Bohuš; Ruttkay, Alexander; Marsina, Richard (1994). Vojenské dejiny Slovenska, zv. 1. Stručný náčrt do roku 1526 [Military history of Slovakia, vol. 1.]. Bratislava: Ministry of defense of the Slovak republic. p. 55. ISBN 80-967113-1-8.

I am not sure about other referenced sources because it is hard to evaluate reliability based on the links to images, but it is unfortunate to create a map based on the work published in 1937. --Ditinili (talk) 07:31, 10 May 2015 (UTC)

Add.:

... the Lombards virtually bypassed the territory of Slovakia

Fusek, Gabriel (1994). Slovensko vo včasnoslovanskom období [Slovakia in the early Slavic era]. Nitra: Archaeological Institute of Slovak Academy of Sciences. p. 120. ISBN 80-88709-17-2.--Ditinili (talk) 15:53, 11 May 2015 (UTC)

Is there an obligation that I must base this map on some specific sources and not on another? I based this map on several sources including this one and this one. My primary source was map from Croatian book from 1937 which seems no longer available online, but if you want I can (re)upload map from that book on some image uploading web site for you to see. Wikimedia Commons can host different user-created maps, based on different sources, so the fact that I based this map on mentioned source does not stop anybody from creating another map based on other sources. Finally, if you want that I make another map based on other sources then I would require at least a source history map as a base for my work. I cannot draw a new map simply based on a text from books which you quoted. Is there in these history books an history map which shows borders of Lombard state from that period? And if there is, can you upload that map somewhere on internet for me to see? PANONIAN (talk) 11:44, 10 May 2015 (UTC)

Of course, you can create any map based on any source, but the question is how reliable is the result.--Ditinili (talk) 12:55, 10 May 2015 (UTC)

Well, I now (re)uploaded map from Croatian book, so you can see it by yourself: http://www.dodaj.rs/f/3D/1D/4ZBxWIDO/teodvel.jpg How reliable it is, I do not know, but I have not seen any source with better map of Lombard state than this one. I told you: if you can show me another source with a map of Lombard state (with borders which you consider correct) I can draw and upload another map in Wikimedia Commons, based on your source. I simply cannot use only quotes from books for map making. PANONIAN (talk) 14:36, 10 May 2015 (UTC)

One more thing: that Croatian source is not outdated (even if it is published in 1937) because map of Lombard state with similar borders is present in this Serbian history atlas from 2007: Denis Šehić - Demir Šehić, Istorijski atlas sveta, Beograd, 2007. That is very new source. PANONIAN (talk) 15:00, 10 May 2015 (UTC)

PANONIAN, I have never said that you did something wrong, e.g. that the original does not contain such map, etc. I only say that the map contradicts the research done right on the place where this state should be in that time. This fact has to be taken seriously and has impact on evaluation of the reliability.--Ditinili (talk) 18:19, 10 May 2015 (UTC)

I understand what you saying, but what I said is that I am currently not able to do anything about this problem because I do not have adequate source (an historical map) on which I can base changed map. So, I will try to find such source with history map which locates Lombard state only in western Slovakia and if I find one I will make new map for Wikimedia. PANONIAN (talk) 12:24, 11 May 2015 (UTC)

Thanks. Great.--Ditinili (talk) 15:53, 11 May 2015 (UTC)