File talk:Map-Francophone World.svg

Definitions

What's the difference between a "second language" (e.g. Western Sahara) and a "minority language" (e.g. the UK). How do we decide which countries are which? Kwamikagami (留言) 10:32, 21 February 2022 (UTC)

Okay, looks like a "minority" language is a local enclave, e.g. London or Cairo. Not sure what the diff between Romania and W.Sahara would be, though. Kwamikagami (留言) 23:56, 22 February 2022 (UTC)

I've taken this up on WP-en, at 'French language', since not getting a response here. Meanwhile I've removed the fluorescent green as misleading, changed Syria, Romania, Andorra, Guernsey. Kwamikagami (留言) 21:50, 11 January 2023 (UTC)

Lebanon / Liban

Lebanon's to be marked in light blue. / Le Liban est à mettre en bleu clair. — Preceding unsigned comment was added by 2A06:4944:10FE:FE00:7DB7:CEBE:B266:7EF3 (talk) 08:47, 28 February 2022 (UTC)

Done. Kwamikagami (留言) 23:25, 1 March 2022 (UTC)

Merci. 2A06:4944:10FE:FE00:F831:D738:3A32:9AFE 11:45, 5 March 2022 (UTC)

Carte SVG avec manque d'informations

@Kwamikagami: La carte que vous avez dessiné est vraiment pas très informative, je dirais médiocre. Il manque énormément d’informations comparé à cette carte LaFrancophonie2021.png. Cette dernière montre en détail la réalité, les communautés francophones à travers le Canada, le français comme langue maternelle dans les grandes villes d'Afrique... etc et non une carte succin, et impossible à changer quand on ne maitrise pas le SVG. Le SVG est de meilleure qualité, mais si votre carte est moins instructive, le PNG est meilleur, plus informatif. Vous dites que la carte PNG contient beaucoup d'erreurs sans que vous ne vous basiez sur absolument rien et vous balancez ça de façon gratuite. Zorion (留言) 04:02, 12 January 2023 (UTC)

Tout d'abord, je ne l'ai pas dessiné, comme vous le sauriez si vous aviez regardé l'historique du fichier. Deuxièmement, vous avez peut-être ajouté des détails de valeur à votre dessin, mais vous avez raté la vue d'ensemble. Le vert, par exemple, ne signifie rien, car il n'y a aucune raison apparente pour laquelle certains pays sont verts et d'autres non. De plus, vous montrez que la population est nativement francophone dans des endroits où il n'y a pas de population. Avec une lecture rapide des publications de l'OIF, vous pourriez corriger bon nombre de ces erreurs. Je ne sais pas pourquoi vous penseriez qu'une carte avec des erreurs détaillées est supérieure à une carte moins détaillée mais correcte. Kwamikagami (留言) 07:33, 12 January 2023 (UTC)

你好 Kwamikagami, Mais oui vous avez dessiné le SVG et l'historique le prouve. Qu'est-ce vous me raconté ? Je conçois que la couleur verte est à géométrie variable et qu'elle n'est pas nécessaire, elle ajoute de la confusion et je enlèverai. Vous dites que je montre que la population est nativement francophone dans des endroits où il n'y a pas de population ? Où ça ? Votre carte n'est pas correcte non plus, où sont la minorité acadienne au Nouveau Brunswick et dans le reste du Canada. Votre carte ne montre pas la réalité francophone dans le nord de l'Ontario, non plus. Ou sont les natifs francophones africains des grandes villes. Non, votre carte n'est pas correcte, qu'est-ce qui vous fait penser que votre carte succincte fausse est meilleure qu'une carte détaillée ? Je peux vous retourner la question. --Zorion (留言) 11:12, 12 January 2023 (UTC)

J'ai vécu dans certaines de ces villes, et bien qu'on puisse facilement se débrouiller en français, ce n'est pas ce que les gens parlent à la maison. Avez-vous une référence pour les villes où le français est la langue maternelle ? Sans un moyen de vérifier quelles villes inclure, il serait irresponsable de notre part de deviner. Kwamikagami (留言) 12:20, 4 August 2023 (UTC)

You've never been, lived or even passed by Hearst or Kapuskasing for asking statistics. Me, I do know these cities, I live a couple of hours from there. Here are some references.

The French Language in Ontario, 2001 to 2016: Facts and Figures

Linguistic map of Canada Zorion ^eko 22:34, 5 August 2023 (UTC)

Discussion from WP-en

Moved from w:Talk:French language:

Hi @Kwamikagami @Joiedevivre123321

Mali no longer lists French as an official language, and the map should be updated.

https://www.africanews.com/2023/07/26/mali-drops-french-as-official-language//

https://www.okayafrica.com/mali-replaces-french-as-official-language/

https://allafrica.com/stories/202307270365.html

https://www.wionews.com/videos/mali-13-other-spoken-languages-to-receive-official-status-620315

https://africafeeds.com/2023/07/26/french-is-no-longer-malis-official-language/

Thanks IntelloFR (talk) 02:23, 2 August 2023 (UTC)

According to the map key, med. blue is for 'States where [Frech] is an official or administrative language', which it still is in Mali. I updated the key here to agree with the one on the map itself. — kwami (talk) 05:41, 3 August 2023 (UTC)

I see Laos and Cambodia have been added back: is this correct? Double sharp (talk) 09:02, 4 August 2023 (UTC)

User Moalli added them back in w the edit summary "SE Asian countries where French is still used in administrative settings." If that's not supported, we can remove them again. — kwami (talk) 12:16, 4 August 2023 (UTC)

Laos and Cambodia should absolutely not be on the map. Not sure how we got back to this version haha. Even in the Francophonie's annual document they say concerning Laos "l n’y a pas de filière francophone à proprement parler en dehors des départements de français et de 2 écoles normales supérieures qui forment des professeurs de français" and concerning Cambodia they outline the small number of Francophones for example "L’anglais est la première langue d’enseignement et LVE enseignée dans le supérieur ; suivi par le français, qui est utilisé comme langue d’enseignement pour certains cursus, surtout dans les programmes de co-diplomation." There are certainly francophones and French learners in these countries but it's not an administrative language. Joiedevivre123321 (talk) 12:29, 4 August 2023 (UTC)

The color is for cultural use. The source for our Laos article says that a third of students study in French-language schools and that the older generation speaks it. The first claim appears to be grossly exaggerated, so I don't know how much credence to give the second. Anyway, pending consensus to change I reverted that edit. — kwami (talk) 12:32, 4 August 2023 (UTC)

Zorion has been switching back to the PNG map because this one doesn't include native Francophone cities. That would be worth adding. But I haven't seen a RS yet for which cities are francophone, and know from personal experience that some of the ones shown on his map are not (L2 but not native as claimed). — kwami (talk) 12:38, 4 August 2023 (UTC)

That source is from the 90s when this was more true. Today I think there's still some TV and radio programs available in French but it's not widely spoken on an administrative or cultural level outside of people with niche interest in French. Joiedevivre123321 (talk) 12:49, 4 August 2023 (UTC)

Wouldn't Algeria need to be darker blue then if the criteria is administrative?

Algeria has way more french speakers than Mali- and the government itself uses french in an administrative way.

Like Mali - french is not an official language, but still an administrative one. IntelloFR (talk) 14:13, 4 August 2023 (UTC)

I don't know, but I would think that most Algerian govt docs and proceedings are in Arabic, and most Malian ones in French. Is that wrong?

Also, the Malian constitution specifies French as the working language of the govt. — kwami (talk) 16:57, 4 August 2023 (UTC)

Hi,

That is incorrect. While Algeria has tried to force the use of MSA, in reality French still dominates.

Wikipedia article here: French language in Algeria

Road signs, billboards, street signs, are all in French/ Arabic: File:Tram alger travaux 3.jpg

Usage of French in Algerian Institutions: https://menaaffairs.com/three-ministries-in-algeria-end-the-use-of-french-within-their-institutions/

While this article does claim three ministries have stopped using French, it says clearly "In Algeria, most of the ministries, with the exception of the Ministry of Defense, use French extensively in their internal correspondence."

Higher education is almost entirely in French as well:

https://www.al-fanarmedia.org/2019/09/algerias-minister-of-higher-education-encourages-switch-from-french-to-english/

Again, while this article indicates that they are trying to switch to English, it clearly states:

"But Ben Sari noted that making the transition from French to English would be difficult for many students and professors because most Algerians have been educated in French from primary school onwards"

"She chose to specialize in French because, she said, “French is the main language of the labor market. Most open positions require the French language, especially in education.”"

"“Ninety percent of the professors who teach us have not mastered English. They and their students all think in French. Medicine in Algeria is taught entirely in French,” he said."

From government, education to street signed - French is dominate in Algeria.

They also have around 11.2 million French speakers, many more than Mali. (French language in Algeria#cite note-3)

It doesn't make sense to have Mali as darker blue, when Algeria is one of the largest Francophone countries. IntelloFR (talk) 17:08, 4 August 2023 (UTC)

Please see this paper for more information on French in Algeria:

https://ir.library.louisville.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1214&context=honors

Highlights:

"The advantage gained by knowing French is still observable in Algeria today."

"However, Bouteflika’s ministers and even Bouteflika himself have been known to speak French in the presence of the reporters. Sensing an easement on linguistic scrutiny, Algerian society responded by using more French (KashaniSabet 277). It reappeared on public signs, leaflets, and in advertising campaigns, even those produced by the government. Advanced research, even in the humanities, remains French almost in its entirety (McDougall 255). It would seem that not only has French not been erased from Algerian society, but that it has experienced a resurgence following a slackening of government restrictions on language"

"Moreover, despite a smaller readership, French online news sites are more common that Arabic ones'

"As more Algerians move into the middle-class social sector, more people are likely to obtain higher levels of education. The French language remains synonymous with Algerian higher education, so logically, the level of French speakers should rise. It seems, therefore, that Arabization policies have not eradicated French because they have failed to replace French with Arabic in spheres of higher education. I" IntelloFR (talk) 17:14, 4 August 2023 (UTC)

Okay. Change Algeria to medium blue then? — kwami (talk) 19:46, 4 August 2023 (UTC)

I would say :

1. Update the definitions.
2. Medium blue should be only those with official language - and light blue should be the cultural / administrative languages.
3. Mali would then be turned light blue.

Either way - Algeria and Mali need to be of equal status as they are similar in their interactions with the French language. IntelloFR (talk) 20:56, 4 August 2023 (UTC)

Which polities would count for the last? Besides Mali and Algeria, we show Mauritania, Morocco, Western Sahara, Tunisia, Lebanon, Louisiana, New Hampshire and Maine. Do they all qualify if we exclude Laos and Cambodia? I don't mean L1-speaking minorities: those should probably be handled with dark blue dots if we can find a RS for them. — kwami (talk) 22:03, 4 August 2023 (UTC)

1. Cambodia and Laos do not quality - there is zero indication that French is used in an administration or even casual sense.
2. Mali and Algeria, Mauritania, Morocco, Western Sahara, Tunisia, Lebanon, Louisiana, New Hampshire and Maine should remain light blue.
3. There should be dark blue spots for cities that are now L1 speakers - like in Louisiana, Gabon, and Cameroon to name a few.

Example:

If you go to Lafayette, Louisiana, you will see French on road signs and find people who speak it: https://www.krvs.org/2023-05-30/new-speakers-of-french-in-louisiana-continuing-a-legacy

(That article also points to the native French speakers still in Louisiana today)

If you go to Cambodia, you will not find anything even remotely close:

https://www.khmertimeskh.com/490756/few-people-speak-french-in-cambodia/ IntelloFR (talk) 02:04, 5 August 2023 (UTC)

I would say Laos, Cambodia, and possibly Vietnam should still be included on the map, but maybe not as fully colored as there is still some usage in administration in the former two and cultural connections for all three. In Laos, you will find French on street signs and on government buildings and many shops/institutions (such as the Bibliothèque Nationale/National Library) and the language is still used in administrative settings: https://www.axl.cefan.ulaval.ca/asie/Laos.htm.

In Cambodia, you will also still find occasional signage in French, and while it's true English is much more present now, there appears to be a revival in its presence in education: https://www.khmertimeskh.com/501045780/master-plan-for-french-language-2022-2025-signed/. It's also still used in courts and foreign affairs: https://www.axl.cefan.ulaval.ca/asie/cambodge.htm (the article also indicates a region of Cambodia called the "ceinture française" where French is still a second language), https://www.mfaic.gov.kh/ (website of the Ministère des Affaires Étrangèrs).

In Vietnam, French is still a working language in fields like medicine and law and it appears the government has acknowledged that it has an important cultural value in the country (https://vn.ambafrance.org/culture-5278) and is using the language to increase economic cooperation with other Francophone countries rather than resort to English, especially in Africa (https://fr.nhandan.vn/loif-et-le-vietnam-soutiennent-la-promotion-de-la-formation-a-la-langue-francaise-post81128.html). It was quite surprising to read that French was the first foreign language in 32 of the country's provinces last year according to the Ministry of Education: https://lecourrier.vn/promouvoir-lenseignement-du-francais-au-vietnam/969539.html.

If including the entire countries as light blue might be misleading, I think maybe they should be included in stripes or with a dot, to indicate there is still a cultural and administrative presence there but not so much so to the scale of say Lebanon. - Moalli (talk) 02:45, 5 August 2023 (UTC)

Hi Moalli,

While there are students of French in Vietnam, and it is occasionally used in medicine to an extent, it is a far stretch to say that it's a language of use in the country.

Would you be able to provide any sources on street signs in french, government websites, or examples of politicians using french?

If not, a green square might be the best option here.

I personally have asked numerous people from Southeast asia, and the same answer comes up: Its all English now. IntelloFR (talk) 05:49, 5 August 2023 (UTC)

Hi IntelloFR, I do recall seeing some remnant street signage and on some buildings/structures (mostly from the colonial and South Vietnam eras) in French in Vietnam but the only thing I could find via image search is this example in Hoi An: https://www.alamy.com/stock-photo-vietnam-hoi-an-old-town-original-french-colonial-shop-sign-advertising-12522752.html. Some educational institutes also feature French signage such as the University of Da Lat (File:Dai Hoc Da Nang Sign.JPG). Nevertheless, I concur that this doesn't support this criteria. As for politicians, Vietnam has a diplomat tasked specifically for the OIF and he did an interview in Tunisia (in French, of course) about the importance of furthering cooperation with the OIF and other Francophone countries: https://vnanet.vn/vi/anh/anh-thoi-su-quoc-te-1049/dai-su-dinh-toan-thang-tra-loi-phong-van-ttxvn-nhan-dip-hoi-nghi-thuong-dinh-cac-nuoc-noi-tieng-phap-6447276.html (note: website is in Vietnamese but interview is in French).

Examples of government websites include the city of Can Tho (which is home to many educational institutes that use French primarily or in a bilingual manner): https://www.cantho.gov.vn/wps/portal/france and Thua Thien-Hue province: https://thuathienhue.gov.vn/fr-fr/.

With the limited resources that I have found so far, I think that Vietnam's color inclusion on the map would not be as strong as that of Laos and Cambodia. However, I don't agree with bringing back the green squares again as those were controversial and might trigger other editors placing them in questionable places such as London (large French expat community yes, but significant and influential cultural influence no). I would say that Laos and Cambodia should be colored light blue again or at least striped in that color if many believe that the scale of French usage there shouldn't reflect equivalence to others in that color like Mauritania. I have personal connections in Laos and can attest that French still indeed has a presence at the administrative level despite a rising use of English.

As for Vietnam, maybe a light blue dot would work better to keep with consistency on the legend as in the previous map used on here to acknowledge its cultural role. After all, it seems like Vietnam is becoming rather ambitious in asserting its presence and acknowledging its role in La Francophonie in the last decade, with the language's popularity rising after being dormant for a long time:

* https://en.vietnamplus.vn/vietnam-calls-for-intensive-cooperation-within-francophonie-community/139974.vnp

* https://en.vietnamplus.vn/oif-secretary-general-attends-launch-ceremony-of-francophone-space-in-hanoi/224075.vnp

Separate issue, shouldn't Tunisia and Morocco also be shaded medium blue if Algeria and Mali are as well? The usage of French in both countries seems to be of similar scale and much more than in the other light blue locales like Lebanon. - Moalli (talk) 09:25, 5 August 2023 (UTC)

I reverted Algeria back to how it was before. Regardless of what is said above, French is neither an official nor an administrative language in Algeria. Its use of French is no different than Tunisia and Morocco. M.Bitton (talk) 22:44, 6 August 2023 (UTC)

I think part of the problem might be not having clear criteria for distinguishing the different colors. If French is the language of govt and education in Mali and Algeria, I can see coloring them the same as countries where it's the official language. The difference is a legal technicality. But if some other language is used in govt/administration and education, then what is the cut-off point for coloring the country light blue?

I agree about blue dots for cities with native L1 populations (and not just expats). We can find sources for individual cities, but that could bias the map toward the areas we bother to check. Do we have a source for L1 francophone populations in Canada, for example? Can we find a RS for such populations across the world, so we don't introduce a regional bias?

The PNG map has blue dots for Lome and Cotonou, but AFAIK those are not L1 francophone cities: the people speak Gbe (Ewe and Fon), and although there is mixture from other parts of the country, so some immigrants may need to rely on French (many if not most will simply pick up Gbe), their children will generally speak Gbe. So AFAICT that's more like French expats in London. — kwami (talk) 19:11, 5 August 2023 (UTC)

@Zorion:

I am pinging Zorion because I think we should coordinate with WP-fr. — kwami (talk) 19:30, 5 August 2023 (UTC)

First, this discussion needs to be moved to where it should be,here (talk:Map-Francophone World.svg). If you move your last comment, I'll respond to it. If you can separate Canada issues from Africa issues, It will be appreciated. -- Zorion ^blabla 22:20, 5 August 2023 (UTC)

I see no issue with either of the color scheme proposals brought forward by you or IntelloFR. If there is only a difference in legal technicality, then I don't see any problem with having countries where French is pretty much de facto official like Algeria and Mali being colored medium blue. In that case, unless someone can find sources that contradict otherwise, Tunisia and Morocco should also be included in that category given the number of citations to back that up on those countries' articles. This scheme appears to be similar to the map used for English, where both countries where the language is non-native but official and only administrative/cultural but not official are colored the same.

On the other hand, if we're going with just de jure official, then the previously mentioned four countries should be light blue, along with Mauritania, Western Sahara (do we actually have a source for this or is it included due to Moroccan rule?), the U.S. states, Lebanon, and whatever scheme for Indochina (striped or dot if fully colored is considered not accurate) to acknowledge the cultural and some administrative presence of French there. Just to add an additional resource for its inclusion, the Francophonie report shared by Joiedevivre123321 has under its description of Laos "La faculté de droit enseigne le français de manière obligatoire à tous les étudiants de licence", which again reflects the fact that French still does have administrative use in the country.

Lastly on native L1 populations, I also agree that non-national communities should be acknowledged as dark blue dots if we can find sources for them. I believe in some cities in Africa like Abidjan, French has become the native language for much of the residents. If need be, this discussion can continue on the talk page of File:Map-Francophone World.svg as proposed by Zorion. - Moalli (talk) 23:30, 5 August 2023 (UTC)

@Kwamikagami

@Moalli

Sorry I am not seeing the talk page on the map page - can someone send a direct link?

I think standardizing the color key is necessary.

When someone comes to this page, they are looking for a clear answer on where French is spoken.

Therefore, I propose having three tiers:

1. Native language - Dark Blue
2. Official language - Medium Blue
3. Non official / administrative / cultural / everything else- Light Blue.

Explanation:

1. Native - This is self explanatory. France, Quebec, Belgium, cities in Africa where it is documented as native.
2. Official - This is a clear cut list, if the language is official - then it is marked.
3. Non official - everything else. Algeria, Vietnam, Morocco. This is where the french language has documented usage, in official use, road signs, education, and medical fields, but is not dominate and is not official.

This clears a lot of the confusion we have, and permits southeast asia to be light blue without causing confusion.

Whatever is decided, countries with French as official language should be marked as clearly as possible - as that is what most people will be looking for on this page. IntelloFR (talk) 23:40, 5 August 2023 (UTC)

I would modify that slightly, as we do for the English map:

If govt functions are in French, then it should be med blue regardless of whether it is technically official. Same if laws and court decisions are published in it, and if it is the general language of education. The point of this color is that it tells you that, even if French is not the native language, it's one what everyone speaks, at least if they have any education. So IMO if Malian children are educated in French [as the medium of instruction], then Mali should be colored med. blue, because the situation is effectively the same as in countries where it's actually official. That's what readers are generally going to be interested in: where can I use French?

More difficult is the low-end cut-off: when is the importance of French too little to qualify? If we applied the more generous proposals I've seen for French, German, Spanish etc. to the English map, nearly every country in the world would be colored blue for English, which doesn't seem right. We could make the criteria for English stricter than those for other languages, but that doesn't seem right either: we should try to be consistent across languages. — kwami (talk) 01:16, 6 August 2023 (UTC)

To be consistent, and to simply, it may make sense to use the English criteria: Native language / Not native language.

1.   Countries and territories where English or an English-based creole is the native language of the majority

2.   Countries and territories where English is an official or administrative language but not a majority native language

The English map also uses dots - this could be used for the African cities, Louisiana and other places where cities are native speakers but the country is not. IntelloFR (talk) 03:11, 6 August 2023 (UTC)

(or something along those lines - making it very clear with the criteria) IntelloFR (talk) 03:12, 6 August 2023 (UTC)

I do have a problem with the creole bit. Our articles are about French and English. We have separate articles for French-based creole languages and English-based creole languages. We do not list the ISO codes for the creoles in the infobox, so the two would be in conflict. Also, our English map does not color Suriname dark blue, despite "English" being the native language of the majority. Why Guyana and not Suriname? -- the only obvious difference is that in Guyana it's official.

Should we do the same for the Portuguese map, and color in Aruba and Curacao as having Portuguese as their official language? That just seems weird. — kwami (talk) 03:49, 6 August 2023 (UTC)

A compromise I see that would make the most sense are the tiers proposed by IntelloFR, but to include places where French is de facto official under the medium blue category. Such category could be 'official (de jure or de facto)' or 'non-native but official or major administrative language'. Based on sources listed here and that are found on the rest of Wikipedia, these would be Algeria, Tunisia, Morocco, and Mali. Mauritania might fit in this category as well given that the role in which French plays there fits Kwamikagami's criteria for the inclusion of Mali as medium blue. These global languages are very difficult to neatly categorize and map because of the scale of their presence.

The three tier scale would be similar to the map for Spanish, although because practically all Hispanophone countries use the language natively, it's divided into sole official and co-official, plus secondary/cultural which dubiously includes the Philippines (if Indochina is debatable, Philippines should definitely not be on that map given that less than 0.5% of the population speaks it and there is practically no cultural presence there nowadays save for loanwords that have been nativized). The light blue places on this map would fall under an 'Administrative/secondary (administrative)/cultural' category: Mauritania (unless moved to medium blue), Western Sahara (again, source?), Francophone U.S. states, Lebanon, and Indochina (either fully colored, striped, or dot as in the PNG map).

I agree that we should not include creole languages as they are separate from their parent languages. The English map includes places where a creole is native *and* standard English is official, which explains Guyana being there and not Suriname. I believe the places listed for the light blue category above make the cut-off for the criteria. French is used in administration at least at some level nationally or sub-nationally, there is a strong heritage backed by the government, and it's a working language of prestigious professional sectors like medicine, law, and engineering. Merely being a member of La Francophonie (e.g. Albania, Egypt) or former French colony (e.g., Syria) is not grounds for inclusion. The Portuguese map is what we don't want, as it is in my opinion, a mess with too many categories, nor is the map for Italian, which has a category for 'former official language' that doesn't reflect current usage. - Moalli (talk) 06:15, 6 August 2023 (UTC)

Western Sahara is supposedly included on its own merits, not as part of Morocco. I remember reviewing it but not any details.

I removed the Philippines from the Spanish map, plan to remove creoles from the English map.

Even on WP-fr, Indochina is not included or is marked only by light-blue dots for the main cities.

Otherwise it sounds like we're close to consensus.

I would like to add L1 cities, per the PNG map, but no-one seems to know of any RS's. — kwami (talk) 09:40, 6 August 2023 (UTC)

I agree on not adding Indochina. Page 43 of the Francophonie report might be the best RS for the urban centers. It mentions French as the first language at home and in business in the urban centers of Côte d’Ivoire, Cameroun, Congo, and Gabon. Congo-Kinshasa is not included (mentions Lingala as the main urban language on page 45). Joiedevivre123321 (talk) 12:17, 6 August 2023 (UTC)

Here's my 2 cents, FWIW:

• Whatever criterion is decided on, it should be consistently applied across all the language maps. It makes them more useful for comparisons.
• When I read these maps, what I'm interested in is basically: (1) will the signs as a matter of course be translated into French (or whatever language I'm looking up); (2) will the actual administration be in French; (3) will the locals generally understand me if I use French with them; and (4) will the locals speak French among themselves?

Double sharp (talk) 16:25, 6 August 2023 (UTC)

Agreed - across the board, remove creoles.

Agreed - for simplicity sake, southeast asia should not be included as fully colored in.

The only three cities that I can find more circumstantial evidence for are below:

1. Libreville, Gabon:

"It has been noted that French is increasingly be-coming the mother tongue and the initial language of the younger generations in urban Gabon (Pambou, 1998:147; Ndinga-Koumba-Binza, 2005a:72 & 2005b:141; Idiata, 2008:85; cf. Blanchon, 1994). In fact, studies by Ntong Amvame (1984), Bouché (1998), Mbondzi (1998), Ompoussa (1998), Itembo (1999) and Mouloungui Nguimbyt (2002) have shown that pupils of various ages and grades at schools learn French more efficiently than any other Gabonese language. Idiata (2008:200 & 2009:126) has also noted that some pupils do not speak any of the Gabonese native languages at all. One of the reasons for this phenomenon (i.e. French being the mother tongue of younger generations) is cross-ethnic marriages.

In fact, many couples of mixed ethnicity prefer French rather than Gabonese native languages as the code for better communication within the family. Children from a family of this kind have no choice but to acquire French as their first language. The children learn the language at home from the parents before they even get to school, therefore lessening the chances of learning any of the Gabonese native languages.

This urbanisation is also to be considered as a cause for French being the initial language of Gabonese younger generations. In fact, “in certain urban contexts there is a large degree of learning by contact at an early age” (Lafage, 1993:216)."

While this does not give a specific number, it states clearly that language transmission in the urban areas is French to French - making French natively spoken per evidence in Gabon.

2. Douala, Cameroon:

In Cameroon, per research: "French usage twenty years ago and in 2004 show a loss of the LWDs, which goes along with a loss of Cameroonian languages in urban areas. Bitjaa Kody has further found that the national languages are disappearing even in endogamic households where family members speak the same national language. Francophone adults used French in 42 percent of the domestic communications which were studied, whereas the young (10–17 years old) used French in 70 percent of the communication. In addition 32 percent of the young between ten and seventeen years old interviewed in Yaounde did not know any national language and had French as their L1 (Bitjaa Kody 2001a). There is a clear change in language use from the parent generation to the generation of their children (Bitjaa Kody 2005:95). As a result, there will be even less national language speakers in future, since the future parent generation will not be able to transmit a Cameroonian language to their children."

Additionally here, this map shows Douala at 91% Francophone: https://translatorswithoutborders.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/11/Cameroon-Language-Map-option-2.png

This again does not give a specific number, but points to the fact that in urban Cameroon, language transmission is French to French - showing French is spoken natively.

3. Lafayette, Louisiana :

The history of French in Louisiana has not allowed the vast majority of francophones the opportunity to learn to read and write French. CODOFIL states, In the 1990 census, approximately 250,000 Louisianians responded that French was the language they spoke at home. The 2000 census showed 198,784 Louisiana francophones over the age of 5, including 4,470 who speak Creole French. Programs such as the Centre de la francophonie des Amériques and CODOFIL continue to identify future avenues of research and encourage francophone to produce knowledge that will lay the foundations for the future.

"This generation of new speakers, often younger than 40, represents a generational shift that developed after home transmission of French faded in the mid to late 20th century. Their grandparents likely spoke French as a first language, "

https://www.theadvertiser.com/story/news/local/louisiana/2023/05/30/sustainability-and-economic-developments-of-the-french-language-in-louisiana/70244915007/

https://www.theadvocate.com/curious_louisiana/curious-louisiana-how-many-people-speak-cajun-french-in-our-state/article_947551b6-a982-11ed-b305-d7c4959e9102.html

https://www.krvs.org/2023-05-30/new-speakers-of-french-in-louisiana-continuing-a-legacy

----

I personally know that in Kinshasa and Lubumbashi, French is spoken natively there but no scientific papers to support this.

So the three cities with hard evidence of native spoken French are:

1. Libreville
2. Douala
3. Lafayette

IntelloFR (talk) 16:42, 6 August 2023 (UTC)

(This is backed up by more evidence by:

"Page 43 of the Francophonie report might be the best RS for the urban centers. It mentions French as the first language at home and in business in the urban centers of Côte d’Ivoire, Cameroun, Congo, and Gabon. " - From @Joiedevivre123321 IntelloFR (talk) 16:45, 6 August 2023 (UTC)

NOTE ON CAMEROON: It could be argued that both Yaounde and Douala, have native french speakers. This resource does only specify Yoaunde though.

So if it only per specific resources, the three cities would be:

1. Libreville
2. Yaounde
3. Lafayette

IntelloFR (talk) 19:27, 6 August 2023 (UTC)

OK, so Indochina should not be fully colored light blue. Laos should still probably be at least striped given that there is proof of administrative usage and common public signage in French there. Cambodia is a maybe due to French usage in courts and diplomacy. Nevertheless, it appears the pattern at WP-fr used to mark this region with light blue dots is the model.

Secondly, if we're going to categorize Algeria, Tunisia, Morocco, and Mali in the same category as countries with French as an official language, I have found a few sources that would support Mauritania's inclusion in that group as well:

• https://www.bbc.com/news/blogs-news-from-elsewhere-51446026
• https://www.senat.fr/questions/base/2011/qSEQ110217407.html
• https://fr.africanews.com/2022/07/27/la-mauritanie-adopte-une-loi-contestee-sur-les-langues-a-lecole/

As for cities, I see that Moncton, New Brunswick (https://www12.statcan.gc.ca/census-recensement/2021/dp-pd/prof/details/page.cfm?DGUIDlist=2021A00051307022&GENDERlist=1&HEADERlist=0&Lang=E&STATISTIClist=1&SearchText=Moncto) and Sudbury, Ontario (https://www12.statcan.gc.ca/census-recensement/2021/dp-pd/prof/details/page.cfm?Lang=E&SearchText=sudbury&DGUIDlist=2021S0503580&GENDERlist=1,2,3&STATISTIClist=1,4&HEADERlist=0) are two cities in Canada where about a third of the population is native Francophone. Statistics Canada will be a good source to find those other significant native Francophone communities in that country outside Quebec. - Moalli (talk) 19:51, 6 August 2023 (UTC)

If we mark Lafayette, Louisiana as native, do we still want light blue for the state? Or is the rest more like SE Asia? — kwami (talk) 20:46, 6 August 2023 (UTC)

I say fully light blue instead of striped or dot like for Laos, Cambodia, and Vietnam. Louisiana's administration still functions in French more prominently than SE Asia with the presence of CODOFIL and French is officially recognized by the state government [1]. There are many sources on other articles related to the state that show strong government and grassroots support for French immersive or bilingual education even in areas where French is not significantly native. - Moalli (talk) 21:09, 6 August 2023 (UTC)

Do we want a minimum percentage of non-immigrant native speakers for a city, or just attestation of native transmission? — kwami (talk) 21:09, 6 August 2023 (UTC)

I've added Mauritania as administrative, plus the L1 cities Libreville, Yaounde, Lafayette, and the two in Canada. It looks like Lafayette can't be more than 5%, though. — kwami (talk) 21:12, 6 August 2023 (UTC)

I suspect we will want to add Abidjan and maybe Brazzaville or other cities is the countries that already have one marked. I was confused as to whether we want Yaounde or Douala -- maybe both? The Cameroon map is primarily of L2 speakers. — kwami (talk) 21:18, 6 August 2023 (UTC)

This is where is gets tricky and opens the door to green square-esque situations if there isn't an established consensus. What the Spanish language map has done for the U.S. states is highlight where at least 20% of the population overall speaks it, preventing half of the country from being randomly colored as in previous maps with no hard criteria. Perhaps we could establish a cut-off to include non-immigrant native speakers? Moalli (talk) 21:21, 6 August 2023 (UTC)

Definitely non-immigrant, I'd say. — kwami (talk) 21:26, 6 August 2023 (UTC)

Should the dots be light blue, to clarify that L1-french speakers are a minority? Do we even know if any of these cities are majority L1? — kwami (talk) 21:29, 6 August 2023 (UTC)

I just saw the modified map and the color scheme used for the cities works quite well. If cities are becoming a bit too problematic, I would be fine with leaving them off and just focusing on countries and regions instead. It looks like the bulk of the map is pretty much complete, with just light blue dots for Indochina (striped for Laos) and medium blue for Tunisia and Morocco needed now that Mauritania has been included in that administrative group. - Moalli (talk) 22:29, 6 August 2023 (UTC)

The source above says that usage in Tunisia and Morocco is minimal, so I didn't change them. We have disagreement above on whether Indochina should be marked at all. (I have no idea myself, never having been to any of those countries.) — kwami (talk) 22:33, 6 August 2023 (UTC)

Here's a source I found for its administrative, commercial, and educational prominence in Tunisia on the country's article [2]. As for Indochina, we have proof of Laos and Cambodia using it administratively, and proof of cultural presence in government and society in sources above, including the Francophonie report. Having been to those three countries and with personal connections there, French does still play a role despite a rise in interest with English (which mostly confined to business and tourism rather than administration and law). I'd say Laos should be striped light blue, unsure about Cambodia's scheme, but the three countries should at least have a light blue dot to indicate cultural and some administrative/professional presence as on WP-fr.

Also, heads up I believe someone reverted your edit regarding Algeria on the map. - Moalli (talk) 22:41, 6 August 2023 (UTC)

I think the map is very accurate as is currently - I personally have few connections to south east asia so I can't speak with authority - my connections are all through francophone africa and Louisiana.

For the Africa and Louisiana section - I would say those may be as accurate as we are going to get for the time being.

I will keep looking for sources on native languages in other cities - but for me, I am going to bow out of the southeast asia debate.

Thanks everyone! IntelloFR (talk) 22:58, 6 August 2023 (UTC)

I'm not going to challenge reverts e.g. Algeria. I don't know enough to insist on my POV. If people come to consensus here that something needs to be changed, I'll be happy to do it, though of course anyone can. — kwami (talk) 09:56, 7 August 2023 (UTC)

From this point we're at Commons. Note Zorion's Canadian ref above. Kwamikagami (留言) 08:20, 8 August 2023 (UTC)

Hi all, Mali is a different color entirely - this should be updated to match the surroundings at the least.

@Kwamikagami@Joiedevivre123321 IntelloFR (留言) 16:22, 26 August 2023 (UTC)

@Joiedevivre123321@Kwamikagami

Hey all, Mali needs to have its color updated, its different than all the others lol IntelloFR (留言) 23:45, 26 September 2023 (UTC)

@Kwamikagami@Joiedevivre123321@Zorion @Salvabl @M.Bitton @Sbb1413

See here for evidence of native language transmission of French in DRC Congo.

1. https://www.researchgate.net/publication/326888188_French_and_the_school_are_one_-_the_role_of_French_in_postcolonial_Congolese_education_memories_of_pupils

"and only recently some children from the urban elite have become Francophone first language speakers."

2. https://www.independent.co.ug/special-feature-dr-congo-home-tenth-worlds-languages/

"While some people like her speak several local languages, the upwardly mobile will often teach their children only French — or French and English."

3. This is further supported by this report: https://www.francophonie.org/sites/default/files/2023-03/Rapport-La-langue-francaise-dans-le-monde_VF-2022.pdf

On retrouve même la langue française en première position dans les milieux urbains de la Côte d’Ivoire, du Cameroun, du Congo et du Gabon

Again, speaking from literal personal experience, know French is natively spoken in Kinshasa and Lubumbashi, but will continue to look for other materials.

Libreville

Yaounde

Lafayette

Kinshasa

Lubumbashi (Lacking hard evidence) IntelloFR (留言) 02:28, 14 October 2023 (UTC)

More evidence of French language native transmission in the DRC:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ItfUK_Z7f0M&pp=ygUaRnJlbmNoIGxhbmd1YWJlIGluIHJoZSBkcmM%3D IntelloFR (留言) 08:32, 14 October 2023 (UTC)

@Kwamikagami@Joiedevivre123321 Hey let me know what you think of the articles about DRC IntelloFR (留言) 05:59, 9 February 2024 (UTC)

I agree the sources say there are native Francophones in Kinshasa and other cities in the DRC (and many that might as well be native). The sources also say there are many French as a second language speakers in Kinshasa. That said, I don't see any sources saying there's really a significant number of native speakers so I'm not sure it warrants adding a native dot like Libreville. I don't know anyone from Kinshasa but my understanding is that French is still pretty removed from daily informal life (but still present in government, education, etc.) Joiedevivre123321 (留言) 13:23, 10 February 2024 (UTC)

That is fair! I agree IntelloFR (留言) 02:07, 22 February 2024 (UTC)

SVG versus PNG Canada

I start with Canada, the PNG map represents exactly what Statistics Canada shows for each province. For example in 2021, in Alberta, the municipalities with a population of more than 500 that had the highest proportion of people who spoke French were all in the northern part of the province: Falher (52.8%), Smoky River No. 130 (50.0%). Key facts on the French language in Alberta in 2021

There it is for Ontario in 2016 The French Language in Ontario, 2001 to 2016: Facts and Figures

That's the reason why on the PNG map, all counties with a French speaking majority population are drawn. So I don't see any logical reaon in adding Moncton and Sudbury, where French is spoken by about 1/3 of the population, and drawing nothing in Acadia, in Northern Ontario and the other small French speaking communities where there is a majority. This is why I thing the SVG map is wrong and making a detailed map in SVG is very complicated, for me actually.  Zorion ^eko 13:34, 8 August 2023 (UTC)

Update: I removed all French-speaking communities in Canada, specifically in Saskatchewan and Manitoba, having less than 50% French-speaking population. -- Zorion ^eko 13:03, 9 August 2023 (UTC)

SVG versus PNG Villes en Afrique

Pour l'Afrique, selon vos critères, vous pouvez ajouter un point sur la carte SVG, sans l'ombre d'un doute, à deux villes auxquelles le français est parlé partout et par tous: Abidjan et Brazzaville. Si à Brazzaville le français est dominant dans la rue, à Kinshasa, c'est le lingala qui est majoritaire dans la rue, mais le français est tout aussi parlé par tous.

L'Afrique entière depuis une vingtaine d'années vit une transition linguistique qui s'accélère en défaveur des langues autochtones et cela est fort triste pour la diversité linguistique. De mémoire, depuis l'indépendance, la zone Sahel a vu sa population multipliée par 5 ou 6 fois pendant que les locuteurs francophones ont vu leurs populations multipliées par 45 et c'est la zone la moins francophone. Prenons le cas de Lomé, où je suis allé. Tous ceux qui sont nés dans cette ville, connaissent la langue ewe, tout aussi bien que le français. Le ewe est bien implanté avec en plus 4 millions de Ghanéens qui le parlent. Quand un Togolais du nord ou un Béninois ou autres francophones, ou même un Nigérian vient s'installer à Lomé, il n'apprend pas la langue ewe, c'est en français qu'il s'exprime, qu'il connaît déjà. Un anglophone Nigérian, lui va essayer de parler en français. Tous peuvent et vont apprendre plus tard l'ewe, mais le français prédomine. Autre fait que j'ai observé, une conversation peut commencer en ewe chez des locuteurs natifs, et finir en français. J'ai vu des enfants de 10 ans qui entre eux parlaient français et ewe. Le nombre très impressionnant de mots français dans la langue ewe (mots techniques, électroménager, expressions,,,etc) les distinguent des Ghanéens ewe. Il y a donc en Afrique, malgré des langues véhiculaires comme le Bambara, le malgache, le lingala ou le ewe, une classe moyenne dans le français est une L1

Langue maternelle en Afrique: Pour définition, les Nations Unies définissent la langue maternelle comme « la langue habituellement parlée par la personne dans sa petite enfance ». Pour le Canada, la langue maternelle est la première langue apprise à la maison dans l'enfance et encore comprise par la personne au moment où les données sont recueillies. Le problème est que nous n'avons pas de statistiques pour la petite enfance. Ce que je sais, c'est que les togolais qui migrent à la Capitale Lomé parlent à leurs enfants soit en français, soit dans leur propre langue, la langue ewe sera automatiquement apprise par les enfants dans la rue par le contact avec les autres enfants. Les enfants de parents ewe de moins 6 ans qui n'ont pas été en crèche, eux comprennent presque tous le français, car les films, la télé, la musique, les livres de jeunesse et dessins animés avec lesquels ils sont en contact sont tous en français (à ma connaissance). Donc, quand ils arrivent à l'école, il n'y a pas de choc linguistique comme ailleurs en campagne. Dans le reste du pays, le français chez les enfants est quasiment nul, ils n'ont pas accès à la vie moderne ou par parcimonie. Par contre, à Lomé, des enfants de 10 ans qui sont entre eux parlent parfois en français et/ou ewe. Il n'est pas rare de voir la jeune génération parler en français. Tout ceci est récent, car il y a tout juste une vingtaine d'années, ce n'étaient pas ainsi. Et c'est la même dynamique pour les pays lusophones et anglophones.  Zorion ^eko 13:00, 9 August 2023 (UTC)

Nous avons besoin de réferences crédibles pour chaque ville. Kwamikagami (留言) 21:49, 26 August 2023 (UTC)

Quand on vous donne des réferences crédibles pour le Canada et que vous n'en faites rien, pas besoin d'en chercher. Faites le donc vous-même, ça sera pas compliqué de trouver de quoi pour Abidjan et Brazzaville. Votre carte SVG comporte trop d'erreurs et ne mérite pas l'exposition dans toutes les langues que vous avez imposé de force.  Zorion ^eko 18:26, 27 August 2023 (UTC)

Alors, vous voulez plaindre du travail des autres, mais n'êtes pas disposé à faire quoi que ce soit vous-même. Si vous ne souhaitez pas contribuer à l'amélioration de la carte, nous l'utiliserons telle quelle. Même ainsi, c'est nettement meilleur que la carte PNG non vérifiée. Kwamikagami (留言) 04:42, 28 August 2023 (UTC)

Nettement meilleure que la carte PNG hahahahaha.....Au moins j'ai bien rit. Je vous donne des références crédibles pour le Canada et que vous n'en faites rien. Revoyez votre copie avant de faire la leçon aux autres et d'imposer une carte SVG plein d'erreurs au Canada. A bon entendeur salut  Zorion ^eko 04:55, 28 August 2023 (UTC)

Need to remove Burkina Faso

https://www.lemonde.fr/afrique/article/2023/12/07/le-burkina-faso-revise-sa-constitution-et-relegue-le-francais-au-rang-de-langue-de-travail_6204385_3212.html El Comandante (留言) 15:02, 28 February 2024 (UTC)