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Southern limits

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You should take the southern limits to the north. Pelion or the region around it was not part of the kingdom(a few hours on 335) and the limit was on, as you know first kingdom of Illyria, extending from Dalmatia on the north to the Aous River (Vjosa River). Here is the river River Vjosa. The border should end below Apollonia, while you have it beyond the river. Megistias (talk) 21:23, 29 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Also, none of these sources are in English
  • 1 Dr Životije Đorđević, Kosovo i Metohija kroz vekove, Jagodina, 2009.
  • 2 Petrit Imami, Srbi i Albanci kroz vekove, Beograd, 2000.
  • 3 Iliri i Albanci, Beograd, 1988.
  • 4 Dragoslav Srejović, Iliri i Tračani, Beograd, 2002.
  • 5 Istorijski atlas, Geokarta, Beograd, 1999.
  • 1 is about modern Kosovo,2 is about Serbian and Albanians,modern nations,Cannot verify or even if i could, read 3,4 or 5.Megistias (talk) 00:01, 30 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
You should also add a specific date BC as at 200 BC,3rd century bc things on that location were as such. 200 BC. Macedon had expanded even above Epidamnus.Megistias (talk) 01:07, 30 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I did not invented any border in this map, but simply used Photoshop leyers to draw new map over a map scaned from a book. Same map is posted in two books that I used as main references ("Kosovo i Metohija kroz vekove" and "Srbi i Albanci kroz vekove"), so I do not see why I should change southern border of Illyria on the map contrary to claims from my sources? Note that author of one of these books is Serbian and author of other book is Albanian, which indicate that there is general scientific agreement about borders presented in the map. If you have some other sources that provide different info about this border, please draw your own map that will reflect info from your sources. As for your observation that sources are not in English, what is your point? That sources published in Serbia should not be used or what? Sources 1 and 2 (in which map is published) are speaking about entire history of Kosovo (1) or entire history of Serbian-Albanian relations (2), including history of ancient Illyria and Dardania. Source 3 is mentioned by source 1 as origin of the map, but I do not have that book, so I did not used it directly, while sources 4 and 5 are used only for secondary purposes regarding names of some Illyrian tribes in western Balkans or Italy. As for specific date of the map, most specific date would be "during the rule of king Agron", so I will notify that in the map description. PANONIAN (talk) 09:35, 30 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The books are not historical and not even verifiable as they are not in English.The authors nationalities are irrelevant.Megistias (talk) 09:46, 30 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
But that is no more than your personal opinion. The fact that these authors published books make them more relevant to present their historical opinions than you. As for verification issue, do you want to accuse me that I forged my sources? Why would I do that? I am Serb from Vojvodina and I do not have political interest in forging the historical border between Illyria (or modern Albania) and Greece. I only draw history maps of various Balkanic and Central European countries and that is all. If you want, I can upload a scaned map from the book to show you that borders there are same? PANONIAN (talk) 09:52, 30 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Also, if you want Internet verification for southern border of Illyria, please see these maps:

PANONIAN (talk) 09:58, 30 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Finally, you draw some of your own maps where you listed only books as references:

...etc, etc...Also, I do not see how the question in which language any of the books is written could be relevant since anybody can go to National Library of Serbia to find books which I listed as references. PANONIAN (talk) 10:13, 30 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Main references:

  • Dr Životije Đorđević, Kosovo i Metohija kroz vekove, Jagodina, 2009.
  • Petrit Imami, Srbi i Albanci kroz vekove, Beograd, 2000.

Secondary references:

Ok, Megistias, what is your main objection here - that sources are forged or that southern border presented in map is not accurate? Regarding the sources themselves, I presented to you some independent Internet sources, so your oppinion whether these sources are "a family historical journey" or "sources with no legend" would not change a fact that sources which confirm southern border of Illyria from my map are existing. As for source from "media.photobucket.com", it show area around Apollonia as an distinct enclave, but the southern border itself is almost same as in my map. As for Apollonia itself, according to the article from English Wikipedia it was populated by both, Greeks and Illyrians, while this source mention it as "Greek-Illyrian city state": http://asklapiadas.ancients.info/ - so it is not impossible that in certain time period this city was part of the Kingdom of Illyria as my sources claim. Also regarding "Vjosa River border issue", southern border of Illyria from my map is located exactly on that river, since that river flow through entire south Albania and through part of Greece. As for Fanula Papazoglu, both of my main sources in fact mention that this map came from book "Iliri i Albanci", which is in fact collection of the articles and the map itself came from the article "Ilirska i dardanska kraljevina" written by Fanula Papazoglu (she is an notable historian in Serbia regarding the history of ancient Balkans and she is also of Greek origin, see: http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&source=hp&q=fanula+papazoglu&btnG=Google+Search In another words, she is an reliable source, so I really do not understand your objections and behaviour here. Do you have any source that strictly claim that city of Apollonia was never part of Kingdom of Illyria or you have just sources that speak only about Greek history of this city but not about Illyrian one? I suspect that second claim would be more accurate here, and the fact that Illyrian history of that city is not mentioned in your sources does not mean that such history did not existed. I also do not understand why you are so desperate to "prove" that an ancient city located in modern-day Albania was "always" Greek and "never" Illyrian. I hope that you are not Greater Greek nationalist who think that southern Albania is Greek. It is undisputed fact that in every historical dispute of that kind the most unreliable sources are those written by nationalist historians from one country who claim part of other country is "their", so in this case we can certainly raise a question of reliability of any Greek source that claim that part of modern Albania was not Illyrian in ancient times. Finally, I am not claiming that any source (my or your) is correct in "Apollonia border" question. I only support plurality of ideas and opinions and I made this map according to the sources whose academic reliabilty cannot be questioned (whether these opinions are correct or not is completelly separate question). I noted on the map page from which source this info came, and you can present here your own sources and claims from your sources, so I can also make a note on the map page that your sources claim that border was different (however, you have to provide exact quotations from your sources as well as a name of book and author who claim that). PANONIAN (talk) 22:57, 30 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

This is not a source, http://asklapiadas.ancients.info/ nor is googling. Keepr you nationalist epithetes for other occasions. You do not support plurality but use data from Non-sources.These were you sources for the map
  • 1 Dr Životije Đorđević, Kosovo i Metohija kroz vekove, Jagodina, 2009.
  • 2 Petrit Imami, Srbi i Albanci kroz vekove, Beograd, 2000.
  • 3 Iliri i Albanci, Beograd, 1988.
  • 4 Dragoslav Srejović, Iliri i Tračani, Beograd, 2002.
  • 5 Istorijski atlas, Geokarta, Beograd, 1999.
  • And you added another unverifiable from Papazoglu to create an illusion of authenticity.Megistias (talk) 23:37, 30 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

That is personal accusation, Megistias, but the one that you cannot prove - I do not see why there would be problem that somebody rearrange a source list on the map page, and I do not see what motive I would have in all this since I am Serb living in Novi Sad and I am not politicaly motivated in Albanian-Greek border question (motive is a basic issue of every crime, you know...). Also, as I said, your opinion about external sources is less valid than such sources themselves and, by the way, this Wiki article mention that Apollonia was part of Illyrian state in the time of queen Teuta: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illyrian_Wars PANONIAN (talk) 00:01, 31 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Do you even write what i comment?Here is the river River Vjosa. The border should end below Apollonia, while you have it beyond the river.Megistias (talk) 00:12, 31 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
As I told you, border on my map is located on river Vjosa. Or you perhaps refer to "estuary of river Vjosa", in which case you should quote exact sentence from your source so that we can see is there a river in question or its estuary, i.e. do we have problem with different info in that source or only with your interpretation of the source. PANONIAN (talk) 09:31, 31 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Ilirska i dardanska kraljevina

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Ilirska i dardanska kraljevina, also this book is not available anywhere. Its mentioned by albanian nationalist sites and white supremacy sites search by albanians.And in very few historical sites that dont make it available.Megistias (talk) 15:15, 30 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Above you wrote "I did not invented any border in this map, but simply used Photoshop leyers to draw new map over a map scaned from a book. Same map is posted in two books that I used as main references ("Kosovo i Metohija kroz vekove" and "Srbi i Albanci kroz vekove"),". So you used two books that are not approriate sources and now attempt to pretend that another book was the source.Unverifiable.Megistias (talk) 15:22, 30 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Also its not even in the National Library of Serbia. Megistias (talk) 15:32, 30 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
"Ilirska i dardanska kraljevina" is not a name of a book but a name of the article from the book "Iliri i Albanci" (which is a collection of the articles). As for article title itself, your own google search showed that work with such title exist, so the fact that such work is mentioned in some nationalist sites does not mean that work itself is nationalist (or you think that Serbian historian of Greek origin is an Albanian nationalist?). Regarding books that I used as a source, I first listed two books that I have in my private library (and I do not see that these books "are not approriate" in any way), and later I also listed a source to which these to books point as to a origin of the map (and I have no reason not to trust to these authors regarding map origin). So, what is the problem? As for Internet database of the National Library of Serbia, the database is still not complete and mostly contains titles prior to 1972: http://digital.nb.rs/eng/katalozi.php PANONIAN (talk) 22:57, 30 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The map is contradicting all the mainstream english-speaking material that fullfils en:wp:verify. Characteristically: 

*The classical age of Greece (1999),
*ed. Atlas of the Greek and Roman world in antiquity (1981).
*Hammond, N. G. L. A History of Greece to 322 B.C., 1986, ISBN-10 0198730950
*Wilkes, J. J. The Illyrians, 1992,ISBN 0631198075,
*In the Shadow of Olympus: The Emergence of Macedon,ISBN 0691008809,1992
*Thracian Tribal areas (from Fol, Thrace and the Thracians, p 133),The Thracians 700 BC–AD 46 (Men-at-Arms 360) by Christopher  Webber After Hoddinot, Col & Cah
*Herman, Mogens. An Inventory of Archaic and Classical Poleis, 2004, p. 348, ISBN 0198140991

Did not speak of a Illyrian 'state' or 'kingdom' with specific borders and political organization, only a alliance of tribes. Moreover the borders of these 'alliances' were limited especially to the south: settlements like: Antipatreia, Pelion, Appolonia were not identified as 'Illyrian'.Alexikoua (talk) 21:52, 30 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Well, all you have here are claims of type "were not mentioned as such", but I doubt that you have any source that explicitly claim that Illyrian state or kingdom did not existed with specific borders or political organization. In fact, you can find in google search numerous sources that would use terms "Illyrian kingdom" or "Kingdom of Illyria": "http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&as_q=&as_epq=illyrian+kingdom&as_oq=&as_eq=&num=10&lr=&as_filetype=&ft=i&as_sitesearch=&as_qdr=all&as_rights=&as_occt=any&cr=&as_nlo=&as_nhi=&safe=images - http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&as_q=&as_epq=kingdom+of+illyria&as_oq=&as_eq=&num=10&lr=&as_filetype=&ft=i&as_sitesearch=&as_qdr=all&as_rights=&as_occt=any&cr=&as_nlo=&as_nhi=&safe=images Also, history of Illyria lasted about 400 years, so it is reasonable that political organizations and borders has changed many times during that time period. In fact, I doubt that any of the sources presented by you contradict to sources presented by me - the only problem here is that people like you do not understand these sources and would make wrong interpretations of claims from these sources. So, please provide any quotation from any source that would contradict to the info presented in my map. PANONIAN (talk) 23:13, 30 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Most sites are either unreliable or they point to the Illyrian kigdom of 18th cent. AD, only a few mention that reffer to antiquity. But even that isn't enough to prove that this 'political organization' had stable borders, and organization more than that of a tribal alliance. Try for example 'Apache state' [[1]], or 'Comanche state' [[2]], thousands of hits, it's not enough strong argument. Can you give me the exact pages, quotes and map that give the exact boundaries of this 'states'?Alexikoua (talk) 00:10, 31 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Sites are unreliable? How so? Please point to specific site and explain why you consider it unreliable. I also do not see that "most" of them point to Austrian Kingdom of Illyria from 19th century (not from 18th as you said), but there is rather an equal number of sites pointing to both historical kingdoms of Illyria, which is quite logical in the case when we have two different historical territories with same name. And now you use description "stable borders" instead "specific borders" from your previous post (which is a very different thing, you know). I do not see that my map claim that these borders were "stable" - it only show Kingdom of Illyria in an specific time period and nothing more. Also, as I said, my sources for this map were books, so here is a scan of original map from one of these books (Petrit Imami, Srbi i Albanci kroz vekove, Beograd, 2000): http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Ilirija_dardanija_scan.JPG - you can see that borders are same as in my map. Books are valid references for usage in Wiki project, so the fact that my map is sourced cannot be disputed. External links are less relevant here and they were presented only to show that term "Kingdom of Illyria" is widely used as such. Now, if you dispute accuracy of my work, please quote exact sentences from your sources that might contradict to my sources (so far you did not presented anything but rethorical speculations). PANONIAN (talk) 09:51, 31 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Not according to Papazoglu

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As you have shown even yourself this is not according to Papazoglu, but according to your googling.Megistias (talk) 00:18, 31 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Two books where I found that map are pointing to the article written by Papazoglu as a source for the map, so I assumed that she is the author, but on the second thought she might not be author, but she could take that map from another source as well. At best, we do not know is she author or not, we only know that her article is a source of this map. PANONIAN (talk) 09:56, 31 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Basic points

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  • Map has no real sources and as said before, you used these and then added Papazoglu to make it look authentic, you also plastered this papazoglu in all the wikis.
  1. 1 Dr Životije Đorđević, Kosovo i Metohija kroz vekove, Jagodina, 2009.
  2. 2 Petrit Imami, Srbi i Albanci kroz vekove, Beograd, 2000.
  3. 3 Iliri i Albanci, Beograd, 1988.
  4. 4 Dragoslav Srejović, Iliri i Tračani, Beograd, 2002.
  5. 5 Istorijski atlas, Geokarta, Beograd, 1999.
  6. 1 is about modern Kosovo,2 is about Serbian and Albanians,modern nations,Cannot verify or even if i could, read 3,4 or 5.
  • Map has no legend whatsoever.
  • Map has even cities with MODERN NAMES, i.e Tetovo
  • Where it says Messapi, at the time was the ROMAN REPUBLIC
  • Where it says Macedonia at the time was the Kingdom of Macedon under the Antigonids
  • Dardania(especially) and Illyria did not have clear borders and cohesion, and the depth in which the "illyrian kingdom" is exhibited is not realistic. It was along the COASTLINE, just there.
  • Where is the region of paeonia?
  • Why is Thracia like that? In the 3rd century BC, 200 BC, the kingdom of macedon inclunded both lakes, all of paeonia,part of thrace and reached even above epidamnos and its limit was a straight line even above lissos.~
  • Aoos begins just below Apollonia, not hundreds of miles below it.
  • Ulpiana was a Roman city, many centuries after 3rd century BC
  • Doclea was founded 1st century AD(4 centuries later) and Docleatae themselves came together after 1st century AD composed of other tribes.Megistias (talk)

There is no proof other than your claim that this map "has no real sources". In fact, here is a scan of the original map from the book, to see how that source is real: http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Ilirija_dardanija_scan.JPG (it is from the book Petrit Imami, Srbi i Albanci kroz vekove, Beograd, 2000.). Also, I already explained why I rearranged source list, so I do not see why you again raise such childish accusations that I forged something or want to make something "to look different than real". I told you: please prove which motive I might have in that or do not raise such questions without valid background. Also, the fact that I corrected reference list and map description would only mean that I am man who would aknowledge own mistakes and correct them, which is a positive (not negative behaviour) of a person. Regarding the subjects of books from my references, how can you tell about what they are when you did not read them? Titles in both books have description "kroz vekove" ("through the centuries"), which clearly indicate that they are not about "modern" nations only. As for other questions: my map has a legend (but perhaps you do not see it), names of modern cities like Tetovo and Novi Pazar are placed in the map because, according to the book, they are important archaeological locatilies from Illyrian period and they are also present in scaned map from a book. As for Messapi and Roman Republic, that was my addition to the map, so I will check again is that correct or not. Also, I do not see that descriptions "Macedonia" and "Kingdom of Macedon" are different, it is same as we use "Serbia" and "Republic of Serbia", my map was focused on Illyrian history, so exact descriptions of names of neighbouring countries would be less relevant here. As for borders of Illyria and Dardania, please compare them with scaned map. As for Paeonia, it is presented in original scaned map, but not as separate country, so I did not used it in my map, along with some other regional and tribal names from the scaned map. As for border of Thracia and Macedonia, my map has same border as in the scaned map, so possible different info about this presented in a different source does not mean that I cannot draw a map based on this source only (I already told you that nobody stopping you to draw your own map which will be based on your sources only). As for Vjosa/Aoos river, it beggins in Greece and ends near Apolonia, so I already asked you to which part of this river your sources refer? As for Ulpiana, that is my addition to the original map due to info from some other sources that it was a city in Dardania (I will check that info again, as well as for Doclea). However, info that Romans "founded" some city in specific year certainly does not mean that it was not founded on the ruins of older Illyrian settlement (which perhaps was destroyed by the same Romans who later "founded" it). PANONIAN (talk) 10:24, 31 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

This is not according to papazoglu scanned.Megistias (talk) 11:12, 31 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Your map has been made according to this alone, Petrit Imami, Srbi i Albanci kroz vekove, Beograd, 2000. So why the subterfuge.Megistias (talk) 11:14, 31 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
On the same page of the book is description that map was taken from "Iliri i Albanci" publication. When I scaned the map I did not included entire page into scan, but only the map, so what is the problem? You want me to scan entire book? PANONIAN (talk) 11:47, 31 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Petrit Imami, Srbi i Albanci kroz vekove, Beograd, 2000.

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Petrit Imami, Srbi i Albanci kroz vekove, Beograd, 2000.
As I told you, I used another book as well and Petrit Imami pointed to publication "Iliri i Albanci" as to a source of a map. He also have a list of literature that he used for his book (12 pages of it) and his book itself is not an original historical reasearch but rather a collection of historical data from other sources (one does not have to be a professional historian to do that), so I do not see why this source would not be "proper". Do you want me to scan page again (with its part pointing to "Iliri i Albanci" publication) or to scan a page from another book as well to show you that article of Fanula Papazoglu is a source of the map? PANONIAN (talk) 11:56, 31 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Here it is - a fresh scan from another book (Dr Životije Đorđević, Kosovo i Metohija kroz vekove, Jagodina, 2009), clearly pointing to Fanula Papazoglu as a source: http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Ilir_scan02.JPG PANONIAN (talk) 12:16, 31 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
He is a teacher of screenwriting, he can claim whatever in the book. Its not papazoglu and it should be removed and deleted.Megistias (talk) 13:14, 31 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Ok, do you have problems with understanding? The second scan that I presented is not from a book of Petrit Imami, but from a book of another author (Životije Đorđević), where this author point that source of this map is article of Fanula Papazoglu. PANONIAN (talk) 18:11, 31 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Description

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English: Regions of Illyria and Dardania according to an Albanian author, Petrit Imami

Date ,29 January 2010,Source,Own work (yours)* Petrit Imami, Srbi i Albanci kroz vekove, Beograd, 2000

  • A screenwriter that claims to have copied a map of papazoglu is not a proper source.

Megistias (talk) 13:19, 31 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

In this page from a book of Životije Đorđević these lands are not named "regions" but countries ("zemlje") and Fanula Papazoglu is clearly indicated as a source: http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Ilir_scan02.JPG PANONIAN (talk) 18:14, 31 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Sources and repetitions

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You have done the same thing here, http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Dardania_kingdom.png

Main references - borders of Dardania are drawn according to the historical maps published in these books: 

   * Petrit Imami, Srbi i Albanci kroz vekove, Beograd, 2000.
   * Dr Životije Đorđević, Kosovo i Metohija kroz vekove, Jagodina, 2009.

Other references that mention Dardanian kingdom / state: 

   * Iliri i Albanci, Beograd, 1988.
   * Dragoslav Srejović, Iliri i Tračani, Beograd, 2002.
   * Kosovo: the politics of identity and space By Denisa Kostovicova: http://books.google.com/books?id=L562PiBM6GEC&pg=PA139&lpg=PA139&dq=%22dardanian+state%22&source=bl&ots=Sa6Kisfj-8&sig=ZOaMq9P8ZNVjBsWnji1ful7qN34&hl=en&ei=UdNcS-P8F6PsmwPq1pSXAg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2&ved=0CAoQ6AEwAQ
   * National Identity: Who are the Albanians? The Illyrian Anthroponymy and the Ethnogenesis of the Albanians, Assoc. Prof. Vladislav B. SOTIROVIĆ, Ph.D. (European Humanities University – International & Vilnius University): http://209.85.135.132/search?q=cache:2vJChtppaokJ:www.freewebs.com/oplenac/Article%2520on%2520Illyrian-Albanian%2520ethnogenesis%2520sa%2520pozadinom.doc+%22dardanian+state%22&cd=3&hl=en&ct=clnk
   * http://albaniaonline.org/the-dardanian-kingdom/

Megistias (talk) 13:50, 31 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

That map has its own discussion page, so please discuss its sources there. PANONIAN (talk) 18:16, 31 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Proper description

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This is your source, below, Fanula is supposedly Petrit's Republished source

Description Illyria and Dardania Kingdoms.png English: Regions of Illyria and Dardania according to an Albanian teacher of screenwriting, Petrit Imami Date 29 January 2010 Source Own work

  • Petrit Imami, Srbi i Albanci kroz vekove, Beograd, 2000, page 255

Megistias (talk) 12:10, 1 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Here is scan of entire page from a book written by Petrit Imami: http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Ilirija_scan01.JPG - you can clearly see there that he pointing to publication "Iliri i Albanci" as original source of the map, as well Dr Životije Đorđević in his book: http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Ilir_scan02.JPG It is clear that Petrit Imami is not author of that map. PANONIAN (talk) 18:10, 1 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Mistakes

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Regarding some of your objections, you was correct about Messapii and Roman Republic, so I wll correct map accordingly to that info. However, this source claim that Ulpiana is mentioned as an Dardanian settlement, so it should remain in the map: http://books.google.com/books?id=D5IxWxCgFFwC&pg=PA132&lpg=PA132&dq=ulpiana+strabo&source=bl&ots=a_wDFpa5On&sig=2dJd1kCDLObCIVGB5g747UdrmYI&hl=en&ei=ES1nS9uPJqSimAPgoLkn&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2&ved=0CAkQ6AEwAQ PANONIAN (talk) 19:40, 1 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Here is also a map of Dardanian state where Ulpiana is presented: http://books.google.com/books?id=L562PiBM6GEC&pg=PA139&lpg=PA139&dq=%22dardanian+state%22&source=bl&ots=Sa6Kisfj-8&sig=ZOaMq9P8ZNVjBsWnji1ful7qN34&hl=en&ei=UdNcS-P8F6PsmwPq1pSXAg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2&ved=0CAoQ6AEwAQ PANONIAN (talk) 21:20, 1 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Note that I made corrections in the map, adding Roman Republic and removing Doclea. PANONIAN (talk) 21:20, 1 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Also, regarding your objection to Vjosa river border, see other maps that have same (or very similar) southern border of Illyria as in my map:

PANONIAN (talk) 21:51, 1 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Stop googling random things.

Megistias (talk) 12:46, 2 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

How interesting? You never trying to discredit data presented in sources or to present your own sources that will support your claims - you only trying to discredit sources themselves claiming that just everything is unreliable like there is a wide Internet conspiracy and that just every web site is someone's evil propaganda. Please be serious and present here your own sources and quote data from your sources. I see no point of continuing childish rhetorical games over and over... PANONIAN (talk) 17:14, 2 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Googling again

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This book Kosovo: the politics of identity and space is not a historical source and certainly not an archeological one its on POLITICS. Ulpiana was Roman founded town, not an Illyrian one.Megistias (talk) 12:43, 2 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
This is from another time period he provincial at Rome: and, Rome and the Balkans 80BC-AD14 and does not support what you say.Megistias (talk) 13:12, 2 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Books about politics very often would contain historical data, so I do not see why book about politics would not be a proper source. And both these sources are presenting that Ulpiana was Dardanian settlement (as well as Scupi) - both sources are refering to Dardanian and not to Roman period of history. PANONIAN (talk) 17:18, 2 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The politics book is useless and Ptolemy lived in AD 90 – c. 168, Megistias (talk) 12:21, 3 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I know when he lived, but the point is that he mention these places as Dardani settlements. I am not using this source as a single reference for anything, but I am just comparing it with similar data from other sources. Also politics and history are very related subjects, so historical data from a book about politics is useful. PANONIAN (talk) 16:57, 3 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

3rd century BC cities

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Ok, I figured why cities from Roman times were presented in original map from my sources - such cities were founded by the Romans, but on location of older Illyrian settlements, so names of the cities are from Roman period, but not settlements themselves. Let examine data from the sources:

So, I will try to make some changes in the map to reflect that names of these towns are from later period, but that settlements themselves are from pre-Roman times. Satisfied with that, Megistias? PANONIAN (talk) 20:01, 2 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

These are not sources, Albanopolis appears 300 years after Roman conquest at 150 AD.
So? source that I presented to you agree with your claim when Albanopolis appeared, but it also say that older Illyrian settlement was on its location (did you read a source at all?). And I do not see how your description of the character of these web sites would be a proof against reliability of the data presented there? PANONIAN (talk) 17:02, 3 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Please quote exact sentence from en:wp:rs which say that sites presented by me on this page cannot be rs. And by the way, Megistias, did you forget to log on or you just playing sockpuppetry games? PANONIAN (talk) 17:02, 3 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Thats not even meMegistias (talk) 17:04, 3 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
If you say so... PANONIAN (talk) 17:10, 3 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Keep dreaming.
No proof from your side that sources are not reliable... PANONIAN (talk) 18:21, 3 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Cities

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by Robert Browning,2003,ISBN-1593330537

Can you understand to start with this simple fact,Trajan the Roman emperor reigned from AD 98 until his death in AD 117Megistias (talk) 12:26, 3 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Scupi, Roman Colony, Pannonia and Upper Moesia: a history of the middle Danube provinces of the the colony was founded on the site...
  • Albanopolis, well Ptolemy lived AD 90 – c. 168, thats centuries later
  • Doclea, Docleatae themselves did not even exist prior to 1st ce AD.The Cambridge Ancient History, Vol. 10: The Augustan Empire, 43 BC-AD 69 (Volume 10) by Alan Bowman, Edward Champlin, and Andrew Lintott,1996,page 577Megistias (talk) 12:37, 3 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Answer:

(1) Ulpiana - well, this source claim that "city of Ulpiana was founded by Trajan", but this source claim that "Ulpiana was the capital of Dardania, an Illyrian kingdom. It dates back pre Roman times (c. 2 BC)", while this source contains a map of pre-Roman Dardanian state with cities Ulpiana and Scupi. So, we either have conflicting sources either Roman Ulpiana was founded on a site of older Illyrian settlement.

(2) Scupi - same as with Ulpiana: this source claim that Scupi exist from the time of Domitian's reign, while this source claim that Skupi was founded by the Dardanians while this source contains a map of pre-Roman Dardanian state with cities Ulpiana and Scupi. So, again, either we have conflicting data either Roman Scupi was founded on a site of older Illyrian settlement.

(3) Doclea and Albanopolis - these two sources also claim that localities of Doclea and Albanopolis were inhabited by Illyrians in pre-Roman times: [3], [4]

So, I do not see that data from all of these sources would be necessary conflicting because data about date when Romans founded their colonies or about date when names of these places appeared in sources would not be conflicting with archaeological data about Illyrian settlements in pre-Roman times. This source clearly say that "Doclea was formed around previous Illyrian settlement", so the data about foundation of Doclea by the Romans and data about pre-Roman Illyrian settlement are not conflicting one to another. I can paint these cities with different colour in the map with description that "names of the settlements are dating from later periods, but sites were inhabited in pre-Roman times as well". Based on data from all these sources, that would be best solution, or you have any other proposal? PANONIAN (talk) 16:53, 3 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

You compare your NON_SOURCES with SOURCES.No comparison. For the billionth time, in example this that you use above is a MONTENEGRO TRAVEL SITEMegistias (talk) 17:00, 3 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
So, what you want to say? That people just writting lies about history on all these web pages? Why would they do that? Why tourist site would lie that older Illyrian settlement existed at Doclea locality before Roman one? I see no any benefit that they could have from that lie and I do not see why would somebody lie if there is no benefit in that. So, no matter if basic purpose of that web page is tourism, tourist publications usually use data from history books when they want to present history of places and if there are no general indications that this web page is not a reliable source then we cannot assume that it is. We can check does such general indications exist in this case by simple examination of other historical data presented on the same page: http://www.montenegro.travel/xxl/en/927403/index.html - So we can read on that page that "After the collapse of the great Roman Empire, this region was conquered by Byzantine rulers, which in the middle of the 6th century were faced with the emergence of the Slavs" or that "Doclea, known as Zeta from the 11th century, as a principality and kingdom, with the respectable Vojislavljević dynasty and its own church structure" or that "After World War I and the fall of the Petrović-Njegoš dynasty, Montenegro became part of the newly formed South Slavic states – the Kingdom of Serbs, Croats and Slovenes, and subsequently the Kingdom of Yugoslavia", etc, etc...All of that is correct historical data which indicate that this source is a reliable one. All other sources could be examined in the same way and only if we find that most of (or large part of) the data presented in these web pages is wrong then we can claim that source itself is inaccurate and unacceptable. PANONIAN (talk) 17:41, 3 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Compromise ?

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Ok, Megistias, please see latest map version and say what you think about new map legend? PANONIAN (talk) 19:25, 3 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

You still have no concept of what reliable sources are and now the map is even more confusing.The legend is a few lines at the bottom and anachronistic locations have been added/modified with no affiliations whatsoever.
  • Some were Roman cities, other Greek other Illyrian settlements other Celtic.And in different timelines.

Another example

  • Naissus was Celtic and then Roman, in Dardania."The ancient Roman city, Naissus, which probably succeeded a Celtic settlement, was mentioned as an important place in the 2nd century(AD) by Ptolemy, in his Guide to Geography"
  • The major and essential issue remains that you ignore what this is en:wp:rs.Megistias (talk) 19:48, 3 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I am just trying to make a map description in accordance with my original source, which is an reliable source. So, what changes you propose in map? How the problem with city names should be solved according to you? PANONIAN (talk) 20:00, 3 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • You are using things like this http://www.tepelena.com/artikuj/iliria1.htm and all aforementioned material. Why do you think i had yet to make a map of the Illyrian and Dardanian "kingdoms"? 99,9 % of all authors dont give them actualy borders and true state status.
  • Épire, Illyrie, Macédoine: mélanges offerts au professeur Pierre Cabanes by Danièle Berranger,Pierre Cabanes,Danièle Berranger-Auserve,page 136,"The extent of the kingdom of Agron and Teuta is not known exactly"
  • Studies concerning Epirus and Macedonia before Alexander by Nicholas Geoffrey Lemprière Hammond, concludes that Agron's domain was of regional significance only and if he even called himself king of the Illyrians is questioned.That he was an Ardiaean king and he extented his rule into other tribes as well, but thats it.
  • There is no definite Data Whatsoever, even in text of defined limits of a Dardanian kingdom, and regarding various Illyrian rulers like Agron only generic doubtfull mentions in text and no maps.
  • The only one is the one you show that was supposedly from Papazoglu and republished in other books and no such data exist for such a map to be even considered.
  • You should stop making Outlines of maps of Dardania and comparing them to Kosovo.Its unrealistic, the location you show was not one of a Dardanian state, its arbitrary and unproven.As i write above there is not enough data for illyria, let alone dardania.Megistias (talk) 00:05, 5 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Also this (with Agron that was the maximum extent, whatever it was)has to do with specifically 230 BC(during the rule of Demetrius II of Macedon) as prior and after that the "southern border" returned to the hands of the Antigonids.Not 3rd century BC, as for 99% of that time southern Illyria was under control of the diadochi, just 230 bc.Megistias (talk) 01:11, 5 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I already explained what I used on a map page: http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Illyria_and_Dardania_Kingdoms.png - so my main references were published historical books (see source 1 and source 2), while internet links such is www.tepelena.com are only posted as "secondary references" i.e. as something that I did not used directly, but only posted them as confirmation of the data from my primary sources. Also, why would anybody care why "YOU did not had yet to make a map of the Illyrian and Dardanian kingdoms"??? For what you consider yourself? For some high authority in map drawing? Please...I have more than 20,000 maps of all kinds in my computer, several historical and geographical atlases and numerous books with maps in my personal library and I made many political, historical and ethnical maps of various countries for Wiki projects (see some examples: [5], [6], [7]), so if you compare yourself to me, you are nothing. Also, my maps are made on empty Photoshop layer and therefore they are 100% my work and completelly free for usage, while your maps are mostly drawn on topographic background of dubious copyright status (see examples: [8], [9], [10]), so, not only that your maps are not entirely made by you, but accurate presentation of borders presented in them also cannot be achieved without usage of leyers. As for your claim that "99,9 % of all authors dont give them actualy borders and true state status", did you read all books in this world and used statistical calculation to come to 99,9%? I certainly do not think so, so please do not insult inteligence of people who visit this page. In general all borders of ancient World are drawn only approximatively in historical atlases, so the case in which somebody draw a border of Illyria is not different from the cases where border of ancient Hittite or Persian state was presented in the history maps. So, yes, some sources are not presenting borders of Illyria (I myself have such sources), but somebody did draw a border of Illyria and some reliable sources used and published that map and I used these publications to draw my map. So, I do not see what might be a problem here. Your objections are completelly irrational. Your first objection to my map was that I should move southern border of Illyria to the north: http://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=File_talk:Illyria_and_Dardania_Kingdoms.png&oldid=34637124 So, when I answered that I draw this map according to the published sources and that I cannot change southern border there only because you say that I should (and you did not provided any source that would support your claims about southern border), you started this campaign against my map, proposing it for deletion or claiming that my sources are not reliable. There is no single proof that any of the 3 authors that published this map in their books (Fanula Papazoglu, Dr Životije Đorđević, and Petrit Imami) are unreliable. In fact, original map itself is English, which mean that Fanula Papazoglu probably found it in some English-language publication. We also know that different historians would make a different observations about varios subjects, so one historians might conclude that "The extent of the kingdom of Agron and Teuta is not known exactly" while another one could try to draw borders of that kingdom (I repeat that all borders of ancient countries are drawn in accordance with assumptions of some historians and without such assumptions we would not have any map with presented border of any ancient state, it is simple as that). As far as Wiki projects are concerned, important thing is that it was not me who made assumption about borders of Illyria, but I made a map identical to the one from published sources and I listed these sources on the map page, so every Wiki user with good faith would say that it is good enough for Wiki projets. But, the problem is that you obviously do not have a good faith here and your true concern (as was your first and basic objection to the map) is that territory of present-day southern Albania is presented on my map as part of Illyrian kingdom. It is well known that southern Albania has an ethnic Greek minority and that Greek nationalists claim that "southern Albania is Greek", so being a Greek by yourself, it is obvious that you have a political goal to prove that southern Albania was "always" Greek and never Albanian. If you sincerely believe that spread of such propaganda in web sites such is Wikipedia would result into future event in which southern Albania will become a part of Greater Greece then there is a big problem, with your inteligence level. As for my other map in which borders of Kosovo and Dardania are compared, that map has its own talk page and is not a subject of this page, so, please address your opinions to proper pages. As for 230 BC, that year was in the 3rd century BC and I do not see that my map claim that it refer to the whole century. PANONIAN (talk) 23:36, 5 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
You should apologize, in the deletion page as well.Megistias (talk) 23:38, 5 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I should apologize? For what? You are the one who harrasing me and who trying to disrupt and discredit my work. PANONIAN (talk) 00:01, 6 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Inaccurate-map-disputed

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Map is inaccurate, utterly. Simply an impossibility to have been thus during that time;

  • The original source was
  • either misunderstood by the wiki user
  • or written intentionally as pseudohistorical fiction by the book author (Fanula Papazoglu), which i cannot know. Or by other authors quoted.
230 BC
  • The borders of the kingdom of Pyrrhus are not included. That was up to Lissos. (300 to 272 BC)
  • The Epirote League borders are not included. (271 to 230 BC) Just below Apollonia.
  • The borders of the Macedonian Kingdom are not included. The Antigonid Dynasty controlled all the region in effect constantly. From Demetrius I of Macedon (337–283 BC) to Antigonus III Doson (229-221 BC).
  • The borders of the Roman Republic are not included. Up to Epidamnus and later above it, reaching Lissus. (228 to 201 BC)
  • The city of Dimale was considered impregnable up to 219 BC when the Romans conquered it.
  • The Paeonians still partially existed, it was not just "thrace" under Dardania
  • In the entire 3rd century BC, the region was split between Romans, Epirotes, Paeonians and Macedonians. Whatever domains Agron possessed, and later Teuta, were not as presented in the map.
  • The map is utterly inaccurate.
  • The Ardiaean, Illyrian domains of Agron and Teuta at 230 BC are uknown and took some thin strips of land up to Apollonia at 230 BC. Or just

Apollonia.

  • At 229 BC the Illyrians cannot sail past Lissus, as Rome dissolves their forces.

The extent of the domains of the Ardiaeans are unknown;

  • Epire, Illyrie, Macedoine: melanges offerts au professeur Pierre Cabanes by Daniele Berranger,Pierre Cabanes,Daniele Berranger-Auserve,page 136,"The extent of the kingdom of Agron and Teuta is not known exactly"
  • Studies concerning Epirus and Macedonia before Alexander by Nicholas Geoffrey Lempriere Hammond, concludes that Agron's domain was of regional significance only and if he even called himself king of the Illyrians is questioned.That he was an Ardiaean king and he extented his rule into other tribes as well, but thats it.
  • The limits, borders or extent of the dardanian and illyrian domains are uknown. Papazoglu simply makes a generic statement and that's it. "From Epirus to Nereva" Neretva is a river 230 km long and Papazoglu does not give specific borders at Neretva or Epirus nor does she claim that Rome, Macedon and other states in region vanished.
  • Petrit Imami is a screenwriter, that supposedly references a Papagozlu publication, all other sources are irrelevant and just reference this source.

The map ignores the existence of the Roman Empire, the Macedonian Kingdom, Paeonia, Epirote states and so on.

I agree, this map is a complete nightmare. Papazoglu was great, but there are quite a few other scholars whose work should be accepted and used for verifying the details. Not a single detail matches with historical reality. What does "during Agron and Teuta" means at the first place? This embraces quite a few decades, and we know nothing of the first decades of Agron's reign. Teuta never possessed Dyrrachium, Apollonia neither, why are they yellow? Under Teuta, by the end of the forst illyrian war a Roman protectorate was founded, where is this on the map? Teuta seized Kerkyra, where is it? And so on, and so on. The problems shoud be made clear to all Commons users, and I absolutely hate that this uselss map is linked to quite a few Wikidata sheet, e.g Bardylis the Great's wikidata. For what? He reigned in Dassaretis and Enchele more than one century before Agron. What does the map have to do with Bardylis? Pasztilla (talk) 18:50, 4 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Again: map have valid academic references. Borders can be verified here, here, here, and here (first two of which are actually scaned from used references). I am fully aware of political changes in the Balkans during specific years, but you obviously do not understand that maps from used references are not showing borders in one specific year, but they rather showing "general borders of Illyria in general time period". That is a completely valid way of graphical presentation in historical maps. PANONIAN (talk) 05:31, 8 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
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