File talk:Malayophone world.svg

 

Name

User:Taylor 49 is edit-warring over the name of this file, changing it to "Malay macrolanguage sphere (Q9237, ms, msa).svg" because a language nationalist made the easily disprovable claim that Indonesian is not a standardized form of Malay. There are plenty of sources that it is, some of which were presented on the discussion over the file deletion.

It may be that a clearer name is warranted for this file, but it should be discussed rather than just edit-warred over. "Macrolanguage" is jargon from ISO that has no meaning outside ISO. It's not appropriate here. Likewise, the Wikidata ID number is not appropriate -- this file is not about Wikidata. "Malay" is perfectly accurate, but something like "Malay/Indonesian" may be desirable -- as suggested on the file-deletion discussion.

As I noted on Taylor's talk page, "macrolanguage" is a bookkeeping term in Ethnologue and ISO for either of two contrary situations:

(a) a single language that for political reasons they've divided up, or

(b) several languages that for political reasons they've lumped together.

It's not a coherent concept. E.g. the Chinese "macrolanguage" is a language family consisting of a hundred or so languages, while the Malay "macrolanguage" is a single language with two standard forms that go by different names. Kwamikagami (talk) 17:57, 20 September 2022 (UTC)

Pinging the closer of the deletion request and other commenters there: @Wdwd, SHB2000, Megfãs, Ikan Kekek, Vanisaac, Nardog, AnonMoos, and Taylor 49: . Also pinging @Austronesier: . Kwamikagami (talk) 18:17, 20 September 2022 (UTC)

@User:Kwamikagami It is a macrolanguage, and has more than two forms. And please stop accusing me of edit warring and affiliations with nationalists. Taylor 49 (talk) 18:06, 20 September 2022 (UTC)

Then don't edit-war. And I'm not accusing you of affiliations with nationalists, I'm saying it's natinoalists who had the problem with the file.

Yes, it's a macrolanguage in ISO. That term has no meaning outside ISO. This file is not about ISO, so ISO jargon is not appropriate. Kwamikagami (talk) 18:09, 20 September 2022 (UTC)

Yeah, "macrolanguage" isn't really a linguistic term. A mention of the concept on Wikipedia could work, but I don't think it makes for a good filename. It's pretty much a catchall term for those languages and dialects that have some political stuff going on. And honestly, I think the current name is just fine, but if "Malay/Indonesian" can appease some people, then why not, I guess (though it's kinda redundant). Megfãs (talk) 18:35, 20 September 2022 (UTC)

I agree with this. -- Ikan Kekek (talk) 19:05, 20 September 2022 (UTC)

Agree too, macrolanguage is technical ISO jargon. Malay is in principle a good cover term that includes all Malayic varieties spoken by ethnic Malay plus the national standards derived from the Riau-Johore literary language. But we should have "language" in the title, because "Malay sphere" potentially evokes a wider sense of "Malay" (as in the – scientifically – obsolete term "Malay race", or the less obsolete concept "Malay world").

There is however a real problem with the current common understanding of "Malay" in Indonesia and elsewhere. Most educated Indonesians are aware that Indonesian is based on literary Malay, but in common parlance in Southeast Asia, "Malay" only refers to regional Malay lects or the standard language of Malaysia (+ Singapore/Brunei). So using "Malay/Indonesian" is a matter of recognizability, and not just appeasing nationalist dimwits like the WMF-wide banned LTA[1]. –Austronesier (talk) 19:25, 20 September 2022 (UTC)

@Guido den Broeder: Alternatively "Malay language group sphere (Q9237, ms, msa).svg". Taylor 49 (talk) 19:35, 20 September 2022 (UTC)

It's not a "language group" either. It's a single language with two standard forms. We don't speak of the "English language group" to mean British + American. And again, Wikidata codes don't belong: this isn't about Wikidata. Kwamikagami (talk) 22:16, 20 September 2022 (UTC)

Would you consider Malayic languages sphere? Guido den Broeder (talk) 22:48, 20 September 2022 (UTC)

No, that would be like moving File:Anglosphere Map.svg to "Germanic languages map". The Malayic languages are a family that includes Malay, but also Iban, Minangkabau and various Dayak languages: see File:Malayic languages.svg. This isn't about all of them, but just the one language, Malay. Kwamikagami (talk) 23:15, 20 September 2022 (UTC)

Agreed. SHB2000 (talk) 20:52, 20 September 2022 (UTC)

Okay, so far we have (1) leave as is (Malay sphere), (2) change to Malay/Indonesian, (3) add "language" to 1 or 2. I'd like to add the suggestion of "Malayophone world", parallel to file:Lusophone World.svg, file:Anglophone World.svg etc. Kwamikagami (talk) 22:14, 20 September 2022 (UTC)

• I would be happy with any of "Malay/Indonesian language region", "Malayophone world", etc. Something that indicates this is a linguistic region without the insanely obnoxious wikidata and ISO codes. VanIsaac (en.wiki) 00:57, 22 September 2022 (UTC)

  Okay, discussion has petered out but probably a majority want some kind of dab that this is about language. I opted for the last option, parallel to the English navigation map. Does that work for people? Kwamikagami (talk) 00:28, 23 September 2022 (UTC)

> Would you consider Malayic languages sphere?

@Vanisaac and Guido den Broeder: YES, or Malayic languages region. The comparison with moving "Anglosphere Map" to "Germanic languages map" does not work. This map is about the macrolanguage, not about Malaysian standard Malay. Taylor 49 (talk) 23:33, 24 September 2022 (UTC)

No, this is not a map of the Malayic languages, but of only one particular Malayic language. We do have a map File:Malayic languages.svg for the topic you suggest. Kwamikagami (talk) 00:17, 25 September 2022 (UTC)

Obviously wrong. This map covers Malaysian, Indonesian and other languages. Taylor 49 (talk) 00:22, 25 September 2022 (UTC)

I think the problem might be that we're using different definitions of "language". Malaysian and Indonesian are the same language, but different standard languages -- that is, different standards of the same language, rather like British and American English. But if my statement about Malayic is "obviously wrong", could you explain how or point to a RS that explains that "Malayic" is not the languages most closely related to Malay? Kwamikagami (talk) 00:56, 25 September 2022 (UTC)