English subtitles for clip: File:IAS-director and Leon Levy professor Robbert Dijkgraaf interviews networks expert Jennifer Chayes on how the world of technology will shape our future-VPRO-The Mind of the Universe.ogv

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So Jennifer thank you so much for giving us this opportunity to have a white raising conversation so just perhaps to

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begin with sort of personable Where are we.

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We are in the Microsoft New England research

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and development center which is in Cambridge Massachusetts where right next to MIT and down the road from Harvard

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and how did you end up. I took a strange yaf here just how did you end up. Well I took a very strange path here.

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I actually started out as an undergraduate in biology and I wanted to be a doctor.

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And then I fell in love with physics I had to take some physics to become a biologist

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and a doctor to get into medical school and I fell in love with physics so then I did a physics major

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and then I decided that I really didn't want to be a doctor I wanted to be a physicist so I went to physics grad school

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and did mathematical physics and I was you know practicing mathematical physicists for I don't know fifteen years

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or so when at the Institute for Advanced Study Nathan Myhrvold who founded Microsoft Research and.

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Tried to convince me to go there and start a theory group there which would bring together math physics

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and theoretical computer science and I knew nothing about theoretical computer science

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but I went because there was an opportunity to start an interdisciplinary lab

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and that was irresistible to me so you know here I am twenty years later having opened this lab about ten years ago

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and that's that's how I got here and what was your experience going to being on the other side. And now your.

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You're an industry.

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How does the world look like from that point of view well I it first of all we have a very academic industrial lab you

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know I've had probably one hundred fifty or two hundred post docs over the years

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and I would say that ninety to ninety five percent of them have landed up as professors so that tells you that we are

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we are an academic enterprise

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but one of the things that I find really exciting is that I hear about problems in a very early stage

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when you know it's even it's difficult to formulate them mathematically and I love translating

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and connecting the pieces so I will hear about a problem in the context of technology

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and I will see that there are some way to view it through the lens of mathematics or the lens of physics

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and then you know then bring in the academic community to start looking at the problem so for me this is very exciting

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so I must also be exciting to be kind of so close to.

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Kind of a force that shapes kind of technology

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and actually a world you know it's if you look at it from your own put personal perspective you know that that's

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perhaps one of the big stories of our lives that we went through these enormous transition in technology particularly

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information technology how do you relate to that you say well I love being so close to it

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and I think it's actually just begun I think that machine learning in artificial intelligence are going to transform

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our individual lives.

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Because we will start to interact right now we have our phones we have Syrian Cortana

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and the you know different personal assistants.

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But I think it's going to become so much deeper than that we will have beings that really understand us that are late

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to us

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and we will have companions for older people which is going to become a big problem in in the world we will have companions

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for our children and then machine learning will also transform health care will transform.

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And environmental science which is incredibly important

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and it will also I I believe transform the more basic science

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and you know I believe that cosmologist for example will get transformed by machine learning because of the data that

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we're bringing in

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and you know even how we collect this data radio astronomers work very hard to collect data far status so that they

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don't have to forty eight transform it I was just sitting in a board meeting

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and I asked Well has anyone tried to use some of the new machine learning techniques so that we could actually measure

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and for you transform

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and see if we can get enough signal from that so I think you know in all aspects of this as we develop machine learning

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we're going to be able to.

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Really push ahead in the basic sciences the Applied Sciences

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and the way in which we interact with the world this is already impacting your life right now if you just look at your

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own personal life perhaps. Feel that you. Know of changing that Oh absolutely I mean technology is.

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You know we we all have our phones we get very attached to our phones in fact you see with.

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All if people might My husband just lost his phone last week and he was that's what he was desperate he was desperate.

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You know your phone connects you in so many different ways it also connects me socially I am actually a user of

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Facebook

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and Twitter it took me a long time to adjust because I was not born into them like some younger people were for me it's

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not my native tongue it's an acquired language for the kids who are growing up today it's their native tongue

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but I have connected with so many people people from my past scientists so I hear about different kinds of science you

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know from scientists who are on Facebook and you know

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and talking about new discoveries so it's it's just it it connects us all in.

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In a really exciting way

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and for me especially because I love interdisciplinary work it allows me to tap into these different kinds of science

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to think about how they might be right for the kinds of approaches so so for me it's really I could not imagine living

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without information technology if you think about it it is going well it's element of the fact you know knowledge is

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now so easy. You can easily connect to it. By race. To speak for knowledge through Bret's.

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You think that change is just the way. Our our research and perhaps even or collective kind of brain works.

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I personally do think it changes everything I mean I am someone who in my career I've you know started out in math

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and physics and I ventured into computer science.

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And then ventured into the nomics and some social sciences

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and ventured into computational biology there's no way that I could have done this without.

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You know the world of knowledge the universe of knowledge at my fingertips to learn about different things to connect

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with different people and also you know I sometimes get my best ideas when I.

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Am hearing about different disciplines

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and I get an intuition that I might be able to connect them to the lenses through ice through which I see the world you

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know through mathematics and physics and phase transitions in in particular

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and so for me it's knowledge we are we're really accelerating with information technology.

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The building of this fabric of knowledge

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and we're breaking down the silos which existed if you pushed at the bit for me.

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Silos within academia research program to think a little bit broader in terms of the work so to which extent are we

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able to go to reach everyone.

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And that connectivity is that something that's helping so to say also to spread knowledge truly across the globe Well I

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think one of the really exciting things is that.

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You know with online courses

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and with you know articles available on the archives in this kind of thing you know you can be a scientist anyway or.

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Even in the developing world where you don't have very much but you have enough coming to Vittie for a cell phone

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and you.

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Can tap into this so I think it it has allowed us as scientists to help spur the scientific endeavor in the developing

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world you know I don't know how we would have done it otherwise you you can't build up libraries in subsaharan africa

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Now obviously if you're starving you're not going to be doing science

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but if you were not starving you might still have been isolated from this kind of worldwide scientific endeavor

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and now you're not so it's just such a powerful force in there you're very close to the center big drivers do you see

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it almost by definition as a force for good or a space that you worry about so. I.

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See a lot of wonderful aspects of it I see that.

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You know people are able to learn so much I see that you know we we also are able to spread technologies that help in

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really important ways in terms of clean water

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and things like that so as we train people in the various countries they they can do this but I also.

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Think especially recently you know we've seen this bread a fake news.

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And

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and so I think this was a great shock I think everyone expected the Internet of the World Wide Web to be the great equalizer

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and to spread information

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and we realize that of course it can also spread mis information so one of the areas that's being developed now I have

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a group in one of my two labs that calls itself the fate fairness accountability transparency.

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And ethics and it brings together people from.

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Ethics philosophy law with machine learning

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and information retrieval to look at whether there are ways in which we can use these technologies to guard against you

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know the dark side of the Web

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but if you think about all the technologies for industrial development by itself of course cost lots of issues that

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often then technology is again as basically our only resource to.

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Deal with these kind of it was effect so you think for information technology it will be something similar in the end

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that's the next. Iteration of technology title helped I think that.

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A lot of people in machine learning in AI are now devoting efforts to trying to stop this spread of misinformation.

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And also of bias you know we have the the problem with machine learning is

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and artificial intelligence is that you have the algorithm but you also have the data Yes

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and the algorithm takes in the data and out put something in the data is created by human beings

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and so if the human beings have bias then the outcome has bias if you are looking for an engineer the Web is more

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likely to return a male name than a female name

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and this is because it has learned from all the interactions so I have some people in one of my labs who said how can

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we use technology to solve this problem certainly balance of the term green balance so there are there's something

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called word vectors which are used to generalize and.

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Auden searches by a search engines

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and those word vectors have implicit biases in them they associate things in a gender biased way in a racially biased

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way in an economically biased way and so some of my research years talk this. The gender bias and the D.

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Bias the word vectors so that you could feed that into the search engine

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and get outputs which were not gender biased anymore you know

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and so this is using machine learning using algorithms using mathematics to.

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To deal with some of the problems that are caused by the technology do you worry sometimes that that knowledge becomes

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kind of integrated in our lives that we aren't even aware of it's what is doing for us

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or not doing for instance just that young children they don't know the world without the internet.

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But I'm not worried about it I'm I believe that.

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They pick it up just like any other language it's almost as if

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when language didn't exist in that while language started to exist slowly

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but if you know if I have one set of children who are raised with one language

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and another set who were raised with three languages.

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In fact they might start talking a little later but they are going to see the world in in a deeper way

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and I believe that children and even we who learn this not as our native tongue.

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Use it to connect things

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and to do things that were not possible in the past I think it's actually part of our evolution that we.

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Are beginning to adjust to the ways in which.

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Technology can enhance our lives to talk about how knowledge and information spreads which were.

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On the other hand knowledge always was power

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and in some sense Microsoft you can say this is certainly one of the centers of power so can you say something about

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how how do we deal with this power source on the one hand if Mission spreading

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but on the other hand some of the most powerful companies.

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Use that kind of knowledge so I think that this is a real problem that.

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That these networks

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and I think study networks I study them mathematically I study their applications in social networks and biology in.

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Economics. Networks actually centralize power.

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For the network providers networks are incredibly powerful people go on them and interact

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and the network providers have incredible power Jaron Lanier is a wonderful wonderful author and technologist

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and he wrote a book I believe it was. Who owns the future.

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And it was precisely this question these networks while generating so much value for the world then take that value

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and centralize it among a few individuals or a few companies and so he had a view that some would call a utopian view.

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Attempting to redistribute that value to the people who participated in the network and created the value

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and I'm not sure that he has come up with the right way to do that yet but I think it's something that society.

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He needs to consider social good has been created but then its value has been centralized

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and how do we bring it back what economic systems

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and social systems can we engineer to take some of the value back to those who helped create it by participating in the

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network what I find fascinating though which of course you never really have an academic setting

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but if you talk to our and all of these large companies

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and some of the secret oh it's knowledge that is very healthy very closely.

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And you're also in competition with us so how does that feel well I think first of all I want to hear is there are

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there really is proprietary information kind of business information most of the people in my labs publish everything

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openly so

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and I think that's a requirement we have brought in a lot of people from academia who's for whom being able to share

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knowledge is incredibly important that's how science is is done now so there is some proprietary business information

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and that of course does feed this centralization of value there is also personally identifiable information. P.-I I.

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Which includes both things like your search history which can reveal so much about you it's unbelievable

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and also for example your health information there is nothing more personally identifiable than your genome you know

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and your clinical health records are incredibly personal So there's a big question about how do we extract value for

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individuals and for society from this data without compromising people's privacy.

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And people's integrity

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and I think this is one of the great challenges of the age of big data you know there are again some technological

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mathematical solutions there's homomorphic encrypts which is.

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A mathematical construct which allows you to extract information from the data

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but return something which doesn't reveal that information however it slows the typical calculation down by about ten

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to the thirteenth OK So there are lots of rituals that's not but.

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There are certain kinds of calculations which it only slows down by ten to the six which might still sound like a lot

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to you but what if I said oh you know you've done twenty three and Me

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or some other service which you know looks at parts of your genome

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and tells you your odds of developing diabetes are all Simers.

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You probably don't want that information to be public

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but you might want that information used in some ways if I slow down those calculations by tend to the sick can do ten

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thousand of them in one minute would you be willing to wait a minute to know this information about yourself in a

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completely private way

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and you probably would so that is right you want that's a price you want to pay so so the question is What are the

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what's the price we're willing to pay in time in calculation for privacy and I think that is something that

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and then there's other forms of this there's.

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Secure multiparty computation and other things so we're going to have to a society or as.

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Different societies with different ethical norms

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and different social norms decide what are the tradeoffs we're willing to make we you know I don't think we can run

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away

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and say we don't want any of this technology because I think we're harming ourselves more than the technology should

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harm us or could harm us so you know how do different societies strike that balance

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and this is a conversation that I believe society should be having and then eventually.

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You know there are legislatures can legislate about it

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but we have to talk it out on a philosophical first on a technological level what is it possible to do

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and then on a philosophical and ethical level and the best thing would be to have the philosophical

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and ethical conversations combined with the scientific conversations about what's possible.

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You mentioned already few times.

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To go about the end of part Fishel diligence machine learning machines getting smarter and smarter.

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I just think that for them push it a little bit further so what are we will eyes be impacted by the first think about

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the next five years

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but then also take a longer view so I I think there are certain you know certain things that are going to be really

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really improved by this technology I recall you know talking to my husband

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and saying oh I might want to you know get a house here or there

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and he says I Well we have to be careful because you know if you want to have this house for thirty years you know

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maybe you'll be too old to you know do you want to drive to the you know to the store to get your eggs to

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and I said Oh you don't have to worry about that we won't we won't be driving ourselves in ten years.

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None of us will drive ourselves our cars will drive us so we don't have to worry about that so there are you know

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things on a shorter time scale also just I really think a lot about elder care my parents are getting older.

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I think there will be robots that can actually help us help our parents which will impact me because I care deeply

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about them and I want them to have a life in which they're more independent which this technology will allow us to do.

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I think in the long run I the things that I get really excited about in you know out ten to twenty years is the effect

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on personalized medicine it's going to be unbelievable I mean we we have so many layers of information to bring

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together we have the genome but we also have.

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You know devices that sit on our wrists that very soon these devices will be good enough to measure your blood sugar

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just through your skin from whether you're you know him a globe in his oxygenated or

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or not they'll be able to tell how much glucose you you have.

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You know they can tell your gait

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and whether as a person ages whether there's something wrong with the way in which they're walking

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and then you start to combine that with clinical information with diagnostic tests of various sorts you know each of us

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has.

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Thousands of coat of diagnostic codes associated with us over our lives if we could put that information together with

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continuously collected information and genomic information then.

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Information that a doctor records in his

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or her notes which will be able to access via natural language processing we will be able to increase the quality of

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life tremendously me will be able to prolong it

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but for me I think the most important thing is increasing the quality of life so that really excites me on an

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intermediate time I Are you worried that in the end the kind of decisions

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and sense of the place where all this information will come together will not be the human mind right it will be in my

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being a machine

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or it might be some combination so I am not someone who is worried about the singularity which is one who's worried

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about the machines taking over I know a lot of very good technologists are worried about this so it's not I mean it's

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not.

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Something that can just be dismissed but I but are you not worried about in the sense it's fine with you

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or you were the board in the sense you don't see it happening I see that there will be.

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An integration of human knowledge in the human mind with these what I view is enhanced Mitzie of the human mind I I am

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not particularly worried that these will turn on us and.

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And you know

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and take over because I think that they are really extensions of us you know you might have worried I don't know in the

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in the time of the first printing presses that if the masses get this knowledge from books well first it was just the

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wealthy people who got the knowledge and then over time the mouse's that there would be a restructuring of society

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and indeed there was a restructuring of says.

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Heidi but that was because there was so much more value that we could actually improve a lot of more of society

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and I my hope is that as we.

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Integrate humans with computers

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and with technology as enhanced myths of ourselves that again there will be a lot of value you know we still have half

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the population on this earth which.

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Is not live as well as the developed world

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and so we could really use value creation in this world to improve the lot of those people if you take the long view

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or you think of the billions of years of evolution of life you know even the hundreds of thousands of years of human

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evolution and now in this phase where technology is some sense. Happening.

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You see this as some kind of a continuation of it's nature's doing that

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and at a different level than different speed I do see this as a continuation of what nature is is doing

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and in fact you know if you look at all of.

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All of human evolution so far you know we started out as hunters and gatherers

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and then we began to foreign men what did we do well we harnessed other you know.

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Other organisms for our own good you know

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and we we interfered with their genomes not by going in they are on a cellular level

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and interfering are on a molecular level but we bred certain plants for and animals and

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and so I see this as a natural evolution I see it as a way in which we are harnessing other kinds.

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Of power

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and I honestly expect that there are probably others in this universe who have already done this week of the mystic age

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technology where domesticating technology we're domesticating technology it's our creation

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but it is also something that we must you know we have we have created species honestly so and I think provided that.

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Science as it develops and technology as it develops is. Is done in concert with ethics.

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Then we will be fine OK So I think it's very very important that we have ethicists philosophers.

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Legal scholars sociologists anthropologists participating in the creation of this science

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and technology is that a big in the sense that you know we can kind of survive technology you know if you're on this

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look at if you accept as it's not that long ago like nuclear arms were some close calls very close calls so it's not

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that it's not over us fact that humans are smart enough to control

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and deal in a responsible way with technology I think it's definitely not an obvious fact

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and I you know I don't know how much I would wager that we will be here ten thousand years from now we could destroy

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ourselves with nuclear weapons I think we are laying the foundation to destroy ourselves with climate change so I am

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hoping that we will wake up to some of this and we will be. Able to use technology to.

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Help correct some of the things that we have already done

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and help us to survive what we cannot correct do for we're talking about the kind of specific time if human evolution

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that we are right now were kind of restarting this kind of simple yogic relationship with technology

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and you're about to tell us this is something that reminds you of a face transition What's a face transition so a face

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transition is something that everybody experiences when water freezes going from liquid to solid

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when water boils it's going from liquid to gas these are qualitative changes we have quantitative changes as you know

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water goes from ninety seven to ninety eight ten ninety nine degrees it hits one hundred degrees Celsius

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and there's a qualitative change of state

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and so phase transitions are those qualitative changes that occur at specific values of a parameter

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and yet for me I mean I study phase transitions mathematically

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but they're also one of the lenses through which I view the world sometimes that can be sometimes you know these lenses

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can be meeting credibly mathematically precise and other times they're only a metaphor and you know this case.

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I see points in human behavior in in human evolution as phase transition points I see the shift from you know from

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hunter gatherer to domestication as a qualitative shift in you know what homo sapiens.

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Do you

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and I do believe that we are very near another one of those costs we are we are going to be able to integrate the technology

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and the knowledge with our own minds and with their own bodies and we're going to be able to.

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Do things we were in a never able to do before

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or that we were never able to do for the vast majority of people before and

296
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and I think that's you know if we're still around ten thousand years from now

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and somebody looks at the different ages you know where we domesticated animals or the industrial revolution.

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I think that this roughly around this time people will identify. Another.

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Change another phase transition in which we interact with the world

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and with each other in a different way one of the pushing that metaphor a little bit one of the effects of faces isn't

301
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it certainly look at the kind of connections correlations over very different kind of skills

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and we're talking about this kind of connectivity is that would that be one of the kind of whole marks of this kind of

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new phase of human kind where it's no longer us as individuals but it's us together

304
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and with machines that do see the role that I see.

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A definite role I'm one of the so what I love about phase transitions is that local interactions create a global effect

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yes local interactions between the water molecules lead to a change from liquid to gas as the water boils

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and so I believe that we are and typically you see. The the. The onset or the disappearance of long range order.

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You know when we learned to write things down.

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We could do much more than before we were able to write things down right we couldn't have we could pass information to

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we could write house information to other generations we could have an economic system between us in which we didn't

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just barter but you know I gave you grain today and you gave me some animal tomorrow because we could write it down

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and our minds have the capacity to only deal with a certain number of people they say it's about one hundred fifty

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or so deal with a certain amount of information some of us can remember more than others but there's a limit

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and so writing things down qualitatively changed the size of the domains in which humans could interact

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and I believe that we're at another transition now where we're going really to a global scale of interaction

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and we've talked about global scales for years with planes

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and economy then you know the stock market of one country connected to that of another

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but I think this is the going to be the deep manifestation of it that our knowledge base is becoming universal is

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becoming long range so we're seeing the onset of long range order in our knowledge if you think about this as a force

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this is kind of unstoppable is that somehow or not Thomas I developed that is definite. Unstoppable.

321
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Actually there there are. There are.

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Systems where there's kind of a driving force that then leads to a critical transition there's something in mathematics

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that I

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and physics that I worked on many years ago called self organize criticality So that was driving you towards a certain

325
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kind of phase transition

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but the driving force they are was just you know the deposit of certain particles here there is a driving force I

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believe in human beings to connect with each other

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and that force is leading us towards this transition I don't think it's stoppable in any way.

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You know no one you you know this no one is going to stop you from trying to learn more about particle physics

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or for me trying to learn more and you know it just it's not going to happen

331
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and on so many different levels on emotional levels on intellectual levels on levels of survival we are driven to

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connect and I think

333
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but these are local interactions Yes And I think that what's happening is that technology has facilitated.

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The onset of long range order here so the title of the series is the mind of the universe.

335
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But there is really that in some sense disconnect is creating a mind that's going to

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but at least the global mind something is I think you see that the kind of happening.

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Our individual being becomes much more part of a global unsolvable I very much believe this is happening

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and I find it so exciting Yes I believe that we are part of this global ensemble I see.

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You know I start to work I come up with a you know theory of phase transitions for deep learning

340
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and before I know it there are people in other parts of the world that I thought were disconnected I thought the their

341
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research was on something different and they find they find the paper on the archives and they are they hear a talk

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and all of a sudden we're connected we're connected we're connected

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and it happens so much more rapidly over obviously you know what scale geographical distances

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but also intellectual distances are shrinking you know we are we are able to connect across what previously were

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intellectual divides so it's a world scale but also it's. Our.

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Her knowledge is is becoming integrated at an incredible rate can speak also in this knowledge in terms of different

347
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fields subjects

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but I guess there's also something like the culture in which you approach these cultures has been developed to various

349
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countries now it could be gender based of various ways to look at the World.

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Talk about what this kind of diversity means once we start connecting these various points of view because that not

351
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everybody has the same point of view.

352
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I actually love the fact that not everybody has the same point of view in you know my career what I've done is I have

353
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brought together different disciplines because I believe that the most exciting things happen at the boundaries of

354
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disciplines you know you bring the insights and the lens

355
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and the specific techniques of one discipline to bear on another and it it just.

356
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It's selling rates the the understanding of of a different subject so so much I believe also we should have different

357
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cultural backgrounds.

358
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They don't know in fact in the different fields we really do have different cultural backgrounds a physicist views the

359
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world very differently from any other three politest

360
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and I I see these these different views coming together over time

361
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but you know I also have people from many different countries in my lab they have different social norms.

362
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I love this because then we step back and we consider the differences in social norms in information technology.

363
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There are so many questions around privacy the social norms in Germany

364
00:42:55,15 --> 00:43:00,8
and the Netherlands are so different than in the U.S. You know we always in the U.S.

365
00:43:00,95 --> 00:43:06,41
Err on the side of free speech and I hope we continue to do so.

366
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And you know and in Germany they err on the side of privacy and so when we bring Germans

367
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and Americans together we have to deal with these differences and we have to stand back

368
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and try to understand how those norms formed why they formed and what are the benefits of each

369
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and under what circumstances we retain which norms which is you know almost a kind of international law.

370
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And then finally you know I I think gender balance is incredibly important.

371
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In my labs we happen to have a lot of women some people say me how do you get so many women

372
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and I said well I guess we just scare the men away.

373
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Or certain men please carry the ones who are uncomfortable with gender. You know we gender diversity OK.

374
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You know and I I think also women know when they see a woman leader they say OK there's a there's a place for me here.

375
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But I think that. These are sweeping generalizations but I think that women.

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Sometimes tend to be more into collaboration sometimes tend to be more into taking their mathematics for example

377
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or their computer science and applying yet to the real world and beer

378
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and as I say it's sweeping generalisations because there are many men who really care about the social implications of

379
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their work but I think it just it just as you want to bring different cultures from different countries

380
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and from different disciplines together I think you want to bring different genders together and different racial

381
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and religious backgrounds together because it just causes you to step back

382
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and see the world more broadly which is I think the way to really push science forward so you would argue this is

383
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really just benefits research

384
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and development by itself to highlight this greater diversity absolutely I feel that way I think that.

385
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Just you know if you're always with the people who come from the same background.

386
00:45:29,71 --> 00:45:37,3
You know if you just have this is they ask the kinds of questions that physicists ask which are wonderful I mean I was

387
00:45:37,63 --> 00:45:46,55
you know raised a physicist but I love the fact that I talk to a biologist and I and I begin it

388
00:45:46,56 --> 00:45:54,22
and it takes years actually to appreciate people think you have to learn the techniques of a different field

389
00:45:54,47 --> 00:46:00,77
but I think you really have to learn the values of the different feel and what are the kinds of questions they.

390
00:46:00,8 --> 00:46:07,35
Ask what are the things they care about in a different field before you can have a deep

391
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and incredibly impactful collaboration it's

392
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and in the same way having gender balance having you know nationally cultural balance allows you to a broaden your view

393
00:46:22,19 --> 00:46:29,75
and which ultimately allows you to go into something more deeply if you just look at your own personal life story

394
00:46:29,79 --> 00:46:37,18
and you know your professional development you seem to be very adventurous No go into new cultures

395
00:46:37,19 --> 00:46:42,81
or something you know how to feel when it wasn't something you had from the very beginning.

396
00:46:42,81 --> 00:46:51,55
You know it's it's really funny because I as a child or a I think thought I would be scared of things.

397
00:46:51,55 --> 00:47:00,08
I actually am scared of things sometimes but there is this other I Somebody once told me I was counter phobic.

398
00:47:00,08 --> 00:47:07,23
Anything that scares me I rushed towards so sometimes my initial reaction is a little bit of fear I don't understand

399
00:47:07,24 --> 00:47:16,33
that at all you know and I think but then if I don't understand it it has power over me so I'm just going to Russia

400
00:47:16,34 --> 00:47:19,29
and I'm going to try to understand it

401
00:47:19,3 --> 00:47:28,79
and try to absorb it because then I can absorb that power that way of looking at the world so I landed up

402
00:47:29,15 --> 00:47:35,22
and I just got excited about it why you saw a truck that was things you don't know but.

403
00:47:35,22 --> 00:47:46,00
I I think you see it is a time I I also as I get older come with things that I do know so.

404
00:47:46,00 --> 00:47:52,73
Now is it when you're when you're first a graduate student you actually come with very little you know

405
00:47:52,9 --> 00:48:00,2
and so it's really hard because you're coming to these very difficult questions and you have very few poses.

406
00:48:01,21 --> 00:48:08,32
You know you have very few ways I mean I've you you have your own mind in your own creativity and that's wonderful

407
00:48:08,88 --> 00:48:16,47
but you have very little perspective and now as I move into different fields there's the initial fear

408
00:48:16,8 --> 00:48:23,12
and there's the activation barrier of having to learn not only the techniques but also the values

409
00:48:23,13 --> 00:48:32,33
and the questions of that field but then I bring my probability theory distribution perspective to it

410
00:48:32,38 --> 00:48:37,76
or I bring my phase transition perspective so I bring all these different perspectives different arrows

411
00:48:37,77 --> 00:48:40,05
and I have all these different arrows

412
00:48:40,35 --> 00:48:47,31
and all of a sudden I'm so much of a better graduate student I was the first time around you know.

413
00:48:47,31 --> 00:48:47,59
You know

414
00:48:47,6 --> 00:48:55,42
and hopefully I still retain some of my creativity I think it also really allows me to retain creativity because I

415
00:48:55,43 --> 00:48:59,72
think when you enter a new field.

416
00:48:59,72 --> 00:49:05,09
You have to create something yourself to understand that field and

417
00:49:05,78 --> 00:49:14,67
when you stay in a field sometimes you just hone the details of what you know which can lead to remarkable

418
00:49:14,68 --> 00:49:15,44
breakthroughs

419
00:49:15,68 --> 00:49:24,54
but this excitement of Oh now I understand something I didn't understand before this rush you get mixed with the fear

420
00:49:24,55 --> 00:49:28,27
that you get as a graduate student.

421
00:49:28,27 --> 00:49:31,69
I guess must be addictive to me because I keep doing it again

422
00:49:31,7 --> 00:49:38,73
and again do you work kind of imagine the future do you imagine somehow what's out there in the areas that you don't

423
00:49:38,74 --> 00:49:46,41
know time Madge in the future Well you know I my my one great sadness is that I won't be able to you know I won't be

424
00:49:46,42 --> 00:49:51,02
here to see all of this unless I wrong in my religious views

425
00:49:51,03 --> 00:49:57,28
but that was sort of this best be probably a solid yes there has been problems in my ology Although God forbid then for

426
00:49:57,29 --> 00:50:00,77
all the people around the earth. But I.

427
00:50:00,8 --> 00:50:13,46
I do I magine the barriers in science in the different sciences being broken down much as the you know we've seen it in

428
00:50:13,5 --> 00:50:19,29
economics we have one neck anomic system throughout much of the world

429
00:50:19,69 --> 00:50:25,63
and I I believe that we are going to move towards a time

430
00:50:25,64 --> 00:50:34,03
when science is more unified So for me this is really really exciting that you we can kind of reactor a renaissance you

431
00:50:34,04 --> 00:50:39,76
know the Renaissance had all the sciences together and then we specialized and we went apart

432
00:50:40,12 --> 00:50:46,58
and now I believe this new knowledge base which we all share

433
00:50:47,00 --> 00:50:56,28
and this new ability to communicate will bring us back you know to a post modern Renaissance where the sciences are

434
00:50:56,29 --> 00:51:02,07
more united but will life be.

435
00:51:02,07 --> 00:51:10,9
New Renaissance there are well I'm not sure how I mean I I hope that some of the inconveniences of life will be removed

436
00:51:10,91 --> 00:51:15,12
you know having to drive myself somewhere when I'm tired

437
00:51:15,13 --> 00:51:22,32
or having it where you know we're now stuck in between epochs where we have to sit on the phone

438
00:51:22,33 --> 00:51:29,42
and press buttons press one press two if you know hopefully that will be removed to all these pesky little things that

439
00:51:29,61 --> 00:51:38,24
interfere on the other hand I hope that. You know we will not remove our ability to.

440
00:51:38,24 --> 00:51:44,98
Walk by the Charles River and you know and see the boats and see the birds and

441
00:51:45,44 --> 00:51:54,21
and feel connected to the universe in other ways I hope that we can retain the physicality which brings us great joy in

442
00:51:54,22 --> 00:52:04,46
peace and which I think is necessary for creativity of all kinds and yet. We can remove some of the.

443
00:52:04,46 --> 00:52:16,64
Less enjoyable aspects of physicality. What about. The use it is this incredible force that drives technology and.

444
00:52:16,64 --> 00:52:25,3
The Another element in that is just the joy of finding things out yeah that was just display for those two would yes

445
00:52:25,77 --> 00:52:29,11
because technology and science and research are serious business

446
00:52:29,12 --> 00:52:38,18
but do you consider yourself a serious person I always play with science I always play.

447
00:52:38,18 --> 00:52:45,01
You know it's interesting when I was a member F.B.I.'s for the first time.

448
00:52:45,01 --> 00:52:50,05
And Rico Bobby area asked me how it was going and if I'd been there for about a month

449
00:52:50,06 --> 00:52:53,55
and I said well I'm not having ideas

450
00:52:53,56 --> 00:53:00,17
and he said Are you worried that your ideas aren't great enough because this happens to people

451
00:53:00,18 --> 00:53:03,39
when they spend a year at the Institute for the first time

452
00:53:03,94 --> 00:53:12,42
and I said Yeah maybe I have maybe I should just go back to playing with mathematics to just you know I don't know

453
00:53:12,43 --> 00:53:17,41
where I'm going I'm just wondering around and I just started to magic

454
00:53:17,42 --> 00:53:24,23
and I started playing a certain saying it doesn't matter I don't have to have a great idea today you know I'm just

455
00:53:24,24 --> 00:53:34,68
playing and it was actually during that year that I made the connection between to to stickle physics

456
00:53:34,92 --> 00:53:43,26
and theoretical computer science I I played I talk to people I found all these connections so I think wandering

457
00:53:43,66 --> 00:53:46,06
and playing.

458
00:53:46,06 --> 00:53:55,11
Are really necessary for something serious business they are serious business is that something you encourage You know

459
00:53:55,61 --> 00:54:00,77
I very much encourage wandering in others I am.

460
00:54:00,8 --> 00:54:05,53
I have many postdocs in my labs at a given time ten or fifteen of them

461
00:54:06,03 --> 00:54:21,25
and I very much encourage them to talk across disciplines to step back that you know to play because that forms their

462
00:54:21,56 --> 00:54:24,04
worldview is for later you know

463
00:54:24,05 --> 00:54:34,79
and the more they play the broader their worldview so I very very much encourage this I sometimes tell people you're

464
00:54:34,84 --> 00:54:44,1
reading too many papers you know you're not you you should relax this is a time to really figure out what kind of a

465
00:54:44,11 --> 00:54:47,62
scientist you're going to be.

466
00:54:47,62 --> 00:54:56,47
If you think back when we started our conversation with you as a young girl you know having sort of dreams.

467
00:54:56,47 --> 00:55:04,17
Looking back. Everything you have experienced you have seen happening in your own life and in society.

468
00:55:04,17 --> 00:55:11,45
Are you surprised but I'm completely surprised you know I'm I'm very driven in a way I'm playful and driven

469
00:55:11,79 --> 00:55:18,68
and so I'm always driven toward something I always have some I mean right now I really want to understand cancer

470
00:55:18,69 --> 00:55:23,79
immunotherapy because I'm starting a project with Arnie Levine at the I.A.S.

471
00:55:23,8 --> 00:55:32,38
I'm always driven and so I am rushing towards some goal but then I take a turn.

472
00:55:32,38 --> 00:55:35,4
And I start going towards another goal you know

473
00:55:35,41 --> 00:55:42,92
and so that all these turns have you know have taken me on a path I never would have imagined

474
00:55:43,04 --> 00:55:47,62
and I also try to encourage the young scientists I mentor

475
00:55:47,63 --> 00:55:55,84
and I work with to just not to to always have great goals because I think it's important.

476
00:55:55,84 --> 00:56:00,77
But to always be open to the opportunities you know to to.

477
00:56:01,19 --> 00:56:10,54
Grab that brass ring that you know that might just appear because you never know where that is going to take you

478
00:56:10,8 --> 00:56:17,69
and it's not as if you're not bringing all of it along with you you know you're you're you're bringing all that you've

479
00:56:17,7 --> 00:56:22,38
done you've Are you feeling a part of something which is much bigger than yourself

480
00:56:22,58 --> 00:56:32,6
but Absolutely I'm very much feeling a part of it as I said you were earlier I believe that the world that barriers are

481
00:56:32,61 --> 00:56:41,08
being broken down in science and and I'd like it to extend even further I'd like it to extend to ethics

482
00:56:41,09 --> 00:56:48,07
and you know law and these other areas and that's why I get very excited every day

483
00:56:48,08 --> 00:56:55,18
when I see some other little barrier falling you know.

484
00:56:55,18 --> 00:57:01,85
Robert Frost said you know something there is that doesn't love a wall and I do not like walls

485
00:57:01,89 --> 00:57:07,11
and I do not like walls and so I see them break down on small scales

486
00:57:07,12 --> 00:57:12,37
and then all of a sudden there's a phase transition because there is not a wall

487
00:57:12,65 --> 00:57:20,01
and so then a lot of people are passing between two disciplines at first only the ones who are willing to climb over

488
00:57:20,23 --> 00:57:23,97
the part of the wall that remains do that yeah

489
00:57:24,01 --> 00:57:31,13
but then it gets it gets broken down enough that you see unifications of different parts of science

490
00:57:31,35 --> 00:57:38,79
and it was difficult to live day to day basis with are you not oh I'm very much an optimist I mean yes one day to day

491
00:57:38,8 --> 00:57:45,52
you know oh my God I'll never be able to prove this or. But.

492
00:57:45,52 --> 00:57:45,86
You know

493
00:57:45,87 --> 00:57:56,02
and medium to long range scales I'm very much an optimist which is also why I love mentoring young people because I'm

494
00:57:56,06 --> 00:58:02,53
optimistic about their futures as well and I feel that's a way in which. You know.

495
00:58:02,53 --> 00:58:07,71
I can have a piece of this science that goes on because if you think about it

496
00:58:07,72 --> 00:58:09,62
and one of the great things is this that you know

497
00:58:09,63 --> 00:58:15,78
when people start writing things down they were passing things to the next generation the no the knowledge that we

498
00:58:16,35 --> 00:58:19,55
enjoy right now is for many many generations before us

499
00:58:19,56 --> 00:58:27,32
and you feel you all sort of passing this along to the future I feel I'm very much passing it along I mean my the grad

500
00:58:27,33 --> 00:58:28,43
students with whom I work

501
00:58:28,44 --> 00:58:36,91
and the post-docs are you know perhaps what I am proudest of I mean I'm proud particular pieces of my own work but.

502
00:58:36,91 --> 00:58:44,88
You know I probably have over one hundred well over one hundred of my ex students

503
00:58:44,89 --> 00:58:50,5
and postdocs sitting at top universities around the world and

504
00:58:51,46 --> 00:59:00,07
and I see an elements of what they do they're approaching things that a slightly different way because of the

505
00:59:00,08 --> 00:59:02,85
environment I helped to create for them

506
00:59:03,06 --> 00:59:09,91
and the world view I helped to give them a little piece of so I mean that's you know.

507
00:59:09,91 --> 00:59:16,25
That's definitely my greatest legacy you talked about how we're forming discount a great network.

508
00:59:16,25 --> 00:59:19,46
This kind of global intelligence.

509
00:59:19,46 --> 00:59:26,47
That's in space but that's it you also see this kind of extending in times that absolutely extending in time

510
00:59:26,48 --> 00:59:33,4
and you know I won't be you know leaving labs a hundred years from now certainly.

511
00:59:33,4 --> 00:59:38,75
But they and they are disciples will you know they are just

512
00:59:39,14 --> 00:59:45,78
and they they are going to do things that I cannot imagine which is very exciting to me

513
00:59:46,68 --> 00:59:55,68
and are you trying so all right OK Jeff I want to go into some of the more specific technologies that are driving these

514
00:59:55,76 --> 01:00:02,53
tremendous changes the first thing I want to talk about is virtual reality. Our.

515
01:00:02,53 --> 01:00:07,42
Toll is about we're going to live in this kind of new world.

516
01:00:07,42 --> 01:00:13,33
A lot of what we experience and that new world will not be direct experiences as we do right now

517
01:00:13,37 --> 01:00:20,61
but fully in a virtual form so what do you see happening there so I think that virtual reality

518
01:00:20,62 --> 01:00:33,71
and actually augmented reality which is the projection of. Some virtual elements into your physical space.

519
01:00:33,71 --> 01:00:43,08
Are are just going to be wonderful I mean I think it you know it will have all kinds of applications from Obviously

520
01:00:43,12 --> 01:00:50,93
games an amusement to many people being able to travel to other countries to which they haven't been able to travel the

521
01:00:50,94 --> 01:01:00,72
thing in their chair while sitting in their chairs you know to travel in the universe you know fly through the universe

522
01:01:00,73 --> 01:01:07,59
and see various stars two very concrete things like.

523
01:01:07,59 --> 01:01:20,23
Doctor in the United States being able to guide operations in the developing world so it you know it it will have very

524
01:01:20,32 --> 01:01:28,59
practical applications and it will also be magical in in so many ways

525
01:01:28,6 --> 01:01:33,46
and I feel like I I get to travel all the time for my work.

526
01:01:33,46 --> 01:01:41,38
But I feel bad for people who can't travel so many of them will have a lot of these experiences

527
01:01:41,71 --> 01:01:48,93
and in augmented reality in virtual reality these are essentially visceral experiences.

528
01:01:48,93 --> 01:01:51,22
Perhaps in some sense our reality is already

529
01:01:51,23 --> 01:01:58,76
or meant to grow because you know we our brain is processing what we see is adding stuff to it absolutely I definitely

530
01:01:58,77 --> 01:02:00,77
think that my reality is.

531
01:02:00,96 --> 01:02:04,34
Granted because I project that you know

532
01:02:04,35 --> 01:02:14,25
and I just what I know I project my views I you know I see networks I see face transitions.

533
01:02:14,25 --> 01:02:14,55
You know

534
01:02:14,56 --> 01:02:23,54
and so I I have kind of a these these parallel views going on is there a risk that we will come detach from the world

535
01:02:23,55 --> 01:02:33,17
and detach from each other. I don't think we will detach from each other I think there is.

536
01:02:33,17 --> 01:02:39,79
That it it is really inbred in us to want to connect with each other.

537
01:02:39,79 --> 01:02:51,06
The World Wide Web started at first there was just information on the World Wide Web what became the most popular

538
01:02:51,07 --> 01:02:57,8
things on the World Wide Web It was social media it was connecting it was Facebook

539
01:02:57,81 --> 01:03:06,98
and Twitter in Instagram it was not just passively interacting with some knowledge

540
01:03:06,99 --> 01:03:16,93
or some entertainment it was interaction so I believe that we will always want to interact just kind of a social animal

541
01:03:17,06 --> 01:03:20,3
and decide to just and Hansing that yes

542
01:03:20,34 --> 01:03:29,61
and it would it would take many many many millions of years for us to evolve into something other than essential

543
01:03:29,65 --> 01:03:37,06
animals so so I believe that we will continue to remain fundamentally social

544
01:03:38,04 --> 01:03:43,68
but the things that is driving all of this so we also talked about artificial intelligence and machine learning

545
01:03:43,69 --> 01:03:51,11
and for true reality is the sheer computing power that is.

546
01:03:51,11 --> 01:03:52,36
Now available

547
01:03:53,11 --> 01:04:00,00
and also often this is kind of a semi secret how how incredibly strong these resources are particularly in the private

548
01:04:00,01 --> 01:04:00,57
industry.

549
01:04:01,77 --> 01:04:08,74
But what's what do you see happening in computing in particular though we are now in the phase where quantum computing

550
01:04:08,75 --> 01:04:09,63
is getting closer

551
01:04:09,64 --> 01:04:18,93
and all Microsoft is heavily betting on that So what will that do to us Well you know for many years now people have

552
01:04:18,94 --> 01:04:24,2
been worried about the and of Moore's Law You know the doubling every year and a half

553
01:04:24,54 --> 01:04:33,74
and so we are going to need new computing paradigms I think quantum computing will be one there are different kinds of

554
01:04:33,88 --> 01:04:44,59
quantum computers Mike Friedman at Microsoft has a wonderful typology just is you know looking at top logical quantum

555
01:04:44,6 --> 01:04:53,42
computing there are other kinds of conic computing one could consider eighty a battery quantum computing which would

556
01:04:53,43 --> 01:04:57,2
have different realizations.

557
01:04:57,2 --> 01:05:00,84
I'm just starting to work with some people in Holland on this actually

558
01:05:00,85 --> 01:05:10,95
and eighty Batek quantum computing possibly to create hardware that learns So you know there are the we need people

559
01:05:10,96 --> 01:05:14,77
thinking about what are the next generation

560
01:05:14,81 --> 01:05:21,72
but try to kind of get as a feeling of the magnitude of these changes know what will be possible what's not possible

561
01:05:21,73 --> 01:05:29,34
right now just in terms of sheer power grid patient power but well you know I think that.

562
01:05:29,34 --> 01:05:36,33
We are going to be able to conjure up one of the things that is really.

563
01:05:36,33 --> 01:05:39,89
Computation intensive is image

564
01:05:39,9 --> 01:05:50,79
and graphics OK And we spoke about virtual reality well virtual reality will not be possible without a great deal more

565
01:05:51,27 --> 01:06:00,77
computing power so we really need many generations more of computing power for you to be.

566
01:06:00,97 --> 01:06:03,22
Able to be in this room

567
01:06:03,23 --> 01:06:11,88
and yet walk among the pyramids you know to interact with each other there will be things that you know where a whole

568
01:06:11,89 --> 01:06:18,73
ram of a someone else is in the room with you a little bit like Star Trak.

569
01:06:18,73 --> 01:06:27,73
I very much hope I think everybody who travels very much hopes that virtual meetings will get much much better so that

570
01:06:27,74 --> 01:06:32,71
we don't have to keep hopping on planes and wasting our time

571
01:06:32,72 --> 01:06:38,39
and destroying the environment so all of these things are going to be facilitated

572
01:06:38,4 --> 01:06:45,28
and then also you know precision medicine we want to integrate so much.

573
01:06:45,28 --> 01:06:52,6
Your genome right now we're only looking at certain parts of the genome we're going to be able to look at so much more

574
01:06:52,61 --> 01:06:59,68
and we're going to be able to take in the genomes of so many more individuals right now

575
01:06:59,69 --> 01:07:08,38
and many diseases we don't yet have enough signal to be able to say anything to say we should be just kind of mystical

576
01:07:08,39 --> 01:07:17,42
relational power we Mr Natural Gas our pal is going to shoot right on absolutely yeah absolutely there are so many

577
01:07:17,43 --> 01:07:20,11
diseases where.

578
01:07:20,11 --> 01:07:27,69
We don't have enough samples we don't have enough computational power on those samples to be able to get a good signal

579
01:07:28,02 --> 01:07:34,79
and as we do that we are going to be able to. Really.

580
01:07:34,79 --> 01:07:44,31
To really allow people to live very productive lives with mental illness with many other conditions which we really

581
01:07:44,32 --> 01:07:52,55
can't touch now where we are in a very primitive place our treatment of cancer is incredibly primitive we you know

582
01:07:52,56 --> 01:08:00,77
poison the whole body most of the time in order to try to cure someone of of cancer so really we're in the dark eight.

583
01:08:00,8 --> 01:08:10,17
It is medically and in order to realize the promise we're going to need many more generations of computing power

584
01:08:10,33 --> 01:08:16,44
but let's go back also to the theme of kind of technological progress and inequality

585
01:08:16,45 --> 01:08:22,73
or equality so clearly in the beginning phase this is benefiting a small group

586
01:08:22,8 --> 01:08:28,53
but you're indicating in the end you see this as kind of spreading So what will this kind of technological revolutions

587
01:08:28,54 --> 01:08:37,46
do to the poor have of the world and also perhaps. We are in many countries there are.

588
01:08:37,46 --> 01:08:44,59
Places that aren't so to say very close by but they're very far away in terms of the spreading of ideas

589
01:08:44,65 --> 01:08:54,53
and technology so what what do you see changing there so I I think there are very many people in technology both you

590
01:08:54,54 --> 01:08:58,07
know people who have made their fortunes in technology

591
01:08:58,46 --> 01:09:08,75
and people who are currently doing technology creating technology who care deeply about inequality I think we need to

592
01:09:08,76 --> 01:09:18,88
get comic to Vittie to all parts of the world and we need to get inexpensive devices to all parts of the world I think.

593
01:09:18,88 --> 01:09:28,98
We need energy sources that will enable us to power those devices without destroying our climate system we need

594
01:09:29,57 --> 01:09:39,63
renewable energy sources and we need nanotechnology in other areas that will really allow us to to do that.

595
01:09:39,63 --> 01:09:45,37
We'll be able when we will be able to.

596
01:09:45,37 --> 01:09:54,8
Transmit knowledge so that to help people you know create clean sources of water to help in agriculture

597
01:09:54,81 --> 01:10:00,72
and we can be applying machine learning to agricultural data.

598
01:10:01,14 --> 01:10:08,46
And really improving the food sources for a lot of people in the developing world.

599
01:10:08,46 --> 01:10:15,85
We can ultimately once we have gotten the medical and nutritional.

600
01:10:15,85 --> 01:10:24,18
Requirements out whether we can start to teach people in other parts of the world and hopefully.

601
01:10:24,18 --> 01:10:31,63
Virtual meetings will be much better right now we do have online classes but I hope there will be a time

602
01:10:31,64 --> 01:10:36,37
when you know someone from subsaharan Africa can really you know his

603
01:10:36,38 --> 01:10:45,19
or her whole gram can be in the classroom with someone it Cambridge University or Princeton University.

604
01:10:45,19 --> 01:10:52,48
You know and we can we can really begin to deal with the fact that.

605
01:10:52,48 --> 01:11:00,69
If people are not together it's hard to give them equal access you feel we have the right incentives no balls in the

606
01:11:00,7 --> 01:11:08,57
academic. And government but also in the private industry to do these kind of.

607
01:11:08,57 --> 01:11:17,7
Right things for for human development so honestly I feel that some of the incentives are wrong OK.

608
01:11:17,7 --> 01:11:24,61
And I think that's one of the big questions and society is you know.

609
01:11:24,61 --> 01:11:33,91
How do we create incentives for social good or for what a game theorist would call social welfare.

610
01:11:33,91 --> 01:11:43,8
And I think right now we have swung a little too far in the United States this is my own private view towards

611
01:11:44,68 --> 01:11:52,58
centralization of power centralization of. Finances.

612
01:11:52,58 --> 01:11:59,65
Wealth creation and you know which we're hearing about it all the time and I think.

613
01:12:01,03 --> 01:12:11,42
We're experiencing a lot of instability globally because of this so my hope is that.

614
01:12:11,42 --> 01:12:18,53
The pendulum that seems to be swinging one way will swing back the other way towards.

615
01:12:18,53 --> 01:12:24,88
Towards a little more regulation which would allow us to share the wealth more

616
01:12:25,23 --> 01:12:33,78
but for this I believe it's also really important that we have social scientists interacting with scientists

617
01:12:33,79 --> 01:12:46,61
and technologists on a fundamental level and figuring out Jaron Lanier had. You know had suggested that maybe any.

618
01:12:46,61 --> 01:12:53,5
Knowledge creation through following people in their movements on the web stead of all of the wealth of that going to a

619
01:12:53,51 --> 01:13:02,76
centralized power some fraction of it should trickle back to the people who help to create the data that powers these

620
01:13:02,77 --> 01:13:10,4
great advances so you know I'm not sure whether that's the answer but I believe that we will have technologists

621
01:13:10,41 --> 01:13:17,62
and economists and in for apologists and ethicists looking at these questions

622
01:13:18,49 --> 01:13:25,58
when the world becomes officially I'm happy with how far the pendulum has swung so in some sense fundamentally feel

623
01:13:25,59 --> 01:13:34,6
that we're going to control our destiny and respect by. Doing the right things I think that we.

624
01:13:34,6 --> 01:13:43,77
You know that that human beings learn and I don't think anybody is comfortable with instability now so

625
01:13:44,06 --> 01:13:52,58
and so in learning to decrease the variance and to decrease the instability.

626
01:13:52,58 --> 01:13:57,12
We're going to swing a little bit back towards towards equality

627
01:13:57,46 --> 01:14:04,46
and then you know we'll probably swing back again because we are. We're a dynamical system.

628
01:14:04,46 --> 01:14:09,76
Of coming back to death of the heart of the dead to say the word face was issued because of all the technology book

629
01:14:09,77 --> 01:14:16,19
clubs but let's briefly go back to your.

630
01:14:16,19 --> 01:14:24,77
Girl your life where you were much more focused on your original I would say kind of academic love in mathematical

631
01:14:24,78 --> 01:14:31,13
physics so just tell us a little bit what how did you start out in science and what did you exactly study

632
01:14:31,14 --> 01:14:38,46
and what did you do so in my early career I studied face transitions.

633
01:14:38,46 --> 01:14:47,67
In what are called disordered systems systems with some noise in them they were realizations of this

634
01:14:47,68 --> 01:14:57,06
and laboratories and some nice materials have special properties because of the noise.

635
01:14:57,06 --> 01:15:05,96
What was interesting is that although this was certainly not the reason that I went to Microsoft I went to found

636
01:15:05,97 --> 01:15:13,81
introduce player groups me because they were willing to support me on that but when the Internet started to take off

637
01:15:14,18 --> 01:15:23,46
and the World Wide Web started to take off I saw many of the same structures in these self organize

638
01:15:23,5 --> 01:15:31,1
but very noisy networks and so it really there there was.

639
01:15:31,1 --> 01:15:35,47
The mathematical models I could I could take

640
01:15:35,78 --> 01:15:46,57
and I could look at these huge networks that we were creating So it was very much you know it was this lens through

641
01:15:46,58 --> 01:15:53,43
which I viewed face transitions I mean I found any qualities on critical exponent

642
01:15:53,44 --> 01:16:00,58
and various various esoteric things in these systems I studied.

643
01:16:00,88 --> 01:16:09,13
But then I could go over to these other systems and see the same structures I think as scientists

644
01:16:09,39 --> 01:16:14,21
when we're young we learn that we put on certain lenses

645
01:16:14,22 --> 01:16:22,65
and no matter how we try those are always the first I was with which yes we view any new problem

646
01:16:22,9 --> 01:16:30,63
and what got me so excited about technology is that occasionally there were very good ah through which to view they

647
01:16:30,64 --> 01:16:35,74
could see things that others couldn't see that others couldn't see yes.

648
01:16:35,74 --> 01:16:41,87
That's true of fake perhaps you know just sort of wrapping up a little bit one just to come circle back to cover the

649
01:16:41,88 --> 01:16:47,5
big picture and you know with all the lovely things we have seen happening in terms of technology

650
01:16:47,51 --> 01:16:54,96
and just come back to are looking to the future so if you kind of close your eyes

651
01:16:54,97 --> 01:16:59,46
and your vision this world of tomorrow.

652
01:16:59,46 --> 01:17:00,94
Will tell us just what comes up

653
01:17:00,95 --> 01:17:09,42
and bubbles up what do you see in this in this dream so one of the things for me that would be very exciting I have

654
01:17:09,43 --> 01:17:17,85
collaborators all over the world and I love to see them and I think they like to see me and.

655
01:17:17,85 --> 01:17:25,1
It is just so frustrating because we have to carve time out of our schedules and to we have to get on planes

656
01:17:25,11 --> 01:17:29,18
and you know get jetlag again.

657
01:17:29,18 --> 01:17:39,11
And I really believe that at some point in the not too distant future I'm going to be able to be sitting in a room with

658
01:17:39,12 --> 01:17:47,27
view but you're not going to be here going to be able to be standing at oh you know blackboard with you and writing

659
01:17:47,28 --> 01:17:50,08
and we're both going to write and we're going to see each other stuff

660
01:17:50,26 --> 01:17:56,56
and we can have somebody from get another place interacting with us or for me as a scientist

661
01:17:57,49 --> 01:18:04,51
when I get an idea being able to connect with anyone in the. World at any time essentially.

662
01:18:04,51 --> 01:18:11,68
Is is something that I'm really looking forward to and you know for others who do their own thing there were artists

663
01:18:11,69 --> 01:18:21,23
or who were musicians you know can they you know can you have a string quartet with four people in different countries

664
01:18:21,96 --> 01:18:32,45
you know wouldn't that be left Lee So where they really where it's not a degraded a terribly degraded form of reality

665
01:18:32,78 --> 01:18:35,07
so for me.

666
01:18:35,07 --> 01:18:39,48
You know this technology moves towards greater connection for me

667
01:18:39,49 --> 01:18:47,77
and scientific connection for others it will be artistic art you know your family is in Holland wouldn't you love to be

668
01:18:47,78 --> 01:18:58,14
able to sit down and have a dinner with them when you're sitting in Princeton you know. So you see this.

669
01:18:58,14 --> 01:19:05,51
If you did take the long view or used Siebel human beings on the start of probably living you know with just a handful.

670
01:19:05,51 --> 01:19:14,25
Of very small isolated groups of a growing we now we have this incredibly complicated world getting closer to each

671
01:19:14,26 --> 01:19:19,7
other's homes and connecting more so we will have.

672
01:19:19,7 --> 01:19:23,49
Some transition to a phase where basically everybody is in contact with everybody else

673
01:19:23,5 --> 01:19:34,75
but as you will see I think it will be. It will be sparse in the sense OK so sparse graph is one in which.

674
01:19:34,75 --> 01:19:40,7
You're not connected to a positive fraction of everybody else in the graph I don't think I'm going to have a billion

675
01:19:41,21 --> 01:19:42,95
people with whom I'm interacting

676
01:19:43,01 --> 01:19:53,83
but they can be anywhere that distances are just going to shrink so physical distances are going to shrink intellectual

677
01:19:53,89 --> 01:20:00,77
distances are going to shrink and so we will have. A much more you.

678
01:20:00,8 --> 01:20:03,54
Defied connected world

679
01:20:03,55 --> 01:20:10,2
and I think you know all of us strive whether your you know particle physicist actually striving for what you call

680
01:20:10,21 --> 01:20:20,16
grand unification or you know whether you or someone like me who wants to see certain aspects of physics and biology.

681
01:20:20,16 --> 01:20:23,44
Connected to each other.

682
01:20:23,44 --> 01:20:30,2
You know I think we all strive for that and that the technology will allow us to do that

683
01:20:30,21 --> 01:20:38,27
and we're seeing some of the intellectual connections before the physical connections but virtual reality I think

684
01:20:38,5 --> 01:20:48,21
when it's done right when you can really read someone else's emotions and you can. You can relate to them.

685
01:20:48,21 --> 01:20:57,94
Will allow us to also break down those you know barriers of of distance not sure about the rest of the universe I mean

686
01:20:58,04 --> 01:21:05,85
I believe there are other I truly believe there are other sentient. Beings in the universe.

687
01:21:05,85 --> 01:21:15,98
So Also it would be very nice I think if we could connect with them without having to travel long distances to feel we

688
01:21:16,22 --> 01:21:22,99
first have to connect with ourselves in order to make that yes I X I I do actually I do actually

689
01:21:23,36 --> 01:21:28,82
and you know I don't know we are probably limited by the speed of light but.

690
01:21:28,82 --> 01:21:41,01
But you know I actually believe that within a distance that we can see there are other sentient beings you know that I

691
01:21:41,02 --> 01:21:50,26
can see in my lifetime so I do see us pursuing that exploring new rock and so.

692
01:21:50,26 --> 01:21:57,42
As physical beings over we I don't through our technology I think we'll do it through our technology I think we have

693
01:21:58,07 --> 01:22:00,76
inherent limitations as fish.

694
01:22:00,88 --> 01:22:01,7
Goal beings

695
01:22:01,76 --> 01:22:16,55
and what this technology is going to do is free us from the physical limitations so that our almost unlimited drive to

696
01:22:16,56 --> 01:22:17,55
understand

697
01:22:17,59 --> 01:22:26,35
and to connect can truly be unleashed if you don't look at the timeline of human beings of spending a few billion years

698
01:22:26,36 --> 01:22:30,04
on Planet Earth by first we know it.

699
01:22:30,04 --> 01:22:36,79
But then at some point we'll be spreading across the universe is that what you see happening I think we might see a

700
01:22:36,8 --> 01:22:42,09
specially free room the earth which is just think possibility.

701
01:22:42,09 --> 01:22:42,55
But

702
01:22:43,34 --> 01:22:51,78
but I also believe that maybe we'll connect with other parts of the universe without actually physically going there so

703
01:22:52,12 --> 01:22:57,49
which might be easier I mean you know right now we're physically going to sit to the other side of the earth

704
01:22:57,86 --> 01:23:06,37
and you know last month life I went to Europe three times from the US and it just.

705
01:23:06,37 --> 01:23:14,72
It's too much right it's too much and I certainly you know wouldn't want to try to leave our solar system.

706
01:23:14,72 --> 01:23:20,89
So it's a very tricky of image often said to one of the big frustrations in life is that you call unified is not a

707
01:23:20,9 --> 01:23:22,52
process.

708
01:23:22,52 --> 01:23:30,91
But somehow you are sketching a future where science or technology will allow us to do so I thought I believe so

709
01:23:30,92 --> 01:23:36,38
and you know in my own personal life I have tried to do that I you know my my husband and I work together

710
01:23:37,04 --> 01:23:45,12
and we write papers together we do research we run labs together so I do try to do this because I like to do many many

711
01:23:45,13 --> 01:23:45,63
things

712
01:23:45,64 --> 01:23:51,22
and I also like to be connected with people which means for my husband we we must work together because we're going to

713
01:23:51,23 --> 01:23:57,22
spend too much time working and you know wouldn't it be nice if not quite to that extent

714
01:23:57,23 --> 01:24:00,77
but connection is possible because I believed.

715
01:24:01,28 --> 01:24:07,55
That scientifically you know very very often the whole is greater than the sum of the parts

716
01:24:07,99 --> 01:24:14,55
and so we need to break down both the intellectual barriers and the physical barriers

717
01:24:14,56 --> 01:24:23,61
and the part that technology has not realized for us yet are the physical barriers you know it's still I mean I know we

718
01:24:23,62 --> 01:24:29,49
can we can have a Skype call and it's wonderful relative to not having a Skype call

719
01:24:29,58 --> 01:24:39,23
but we still fly to see each other if we really want to work together you know and I'm really hoping that we can.

720
01:24:39,23 --> 01:24:43,98
Feel the other person's presence and.

721
01:24:43,98 --> 01:24:50,22
Not be inhibited by this barrier and be able to work together

722
01:24:50,23 --> 01:24:59,01
and you know do science together I'm so happy I flew over here to describe it thank you very much as ever.

723
01:24:59,01 --> 01:25:02,18
Having this all the time yeah yeah everything.