English subtitles for clip: File:ICANN History Project - Interview with Stuart Lynn, ICANN CEO, 2001-2003 (306E).webm
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1 00:00:10,202 --> 00:00:14,014 Stuart Lynn, ICANN's second CEO, 2 00:00:14,014 --> 00:00:16,085 thank you very much for taking the time to talk to us. 3 00:00:16,085 --> 00:00:17,435 My pleasure. 4 00:00:17,435 --> 00:00:19,257 As I mentioned, you were the organization's 5 00:00:19,257 --> 00:00:22,066 second ICANN CEO 6 00:00:22,066 --> 00:00:24,812 following Mike Roberts preceding Paul Twomey. 7 00:00:25,864 --> 00:00:28,722 In January 2001, 8 00:00:28,722 --> 00:00:32,479 in the board announcement about your appointment, 9 00:00:32,479 --> 00:00:34,727 you were quoted as saying, 10 00:00:34,727 --> 00:00:36,176 "I'm honored to have been chosen 11 00:00:36,176 --> 00:00:38,982 for such a unique and challenging position. 12 00:00:38,982 --> 00:00:40,300 And I look forward to working 13 00:00:40,300 --> 00:00:42,143 with all the members of the Internet community 14 00:00:42,143 --> 00:00:43,500 around the world 15 00:00:43,500 --> 00:00:45,568 to achieve ICANN's technical mission." 16 00:00:46,830 --> 00:00:48,397 That's what you said, 17 00:00:48,397 --> 00:00:51,469 when you were appointed to the position. 18 00:00:51,469 --> 00:00:54,638 What did you find when you actually started working at ICANN? 19 00:00:54,638 --> 00:00:56,401 Oh, that was a lot tougher than it sounded. 20 00:00:58,824 --> 00:01:02,246 Those were good words and they were words full of intent, 21 00:01:02,246 --> 00:01:05,388 and it took a lot of hard work 22 00:01:05,388 --> 00:01:07,094 not just by me 23 00:01:07,094 --> 00:01:09,286 but by a lot of great people 24 00:01:09,286 --> 00:01:12,088 to make it possible 25 00:01:12,088 --> 00:01:14,121 for ICANN to achieve its mission. 26 00:01:14,121 --> 00:01:16,432 Stuart, you weren't from the ICANN community. 27 00:01:16,432 --> 00:01:19,031 Did you have a steep learning curve? 28 00:01:19,031 --> 00:01:20,808 I had a very steep learning curve. 29 00:01:20,808 --> 00:01:21,991 I had some great teachers, 30 00:01:22,992 --> 00:01:25,726 Louis Touton and Andrew McLaughlin, 31 00:01:25,726 --> 00:01:28,392 and of course, the board as a whole. 32 00:01:28,392 --> 00:01:29,795 So I had some great teachers, 33 00:01:29,795 --> 00:01:31,910 but I didn't come from a background 34 00:01:31,910 --> 00:01:36,218 that was deeply immersed in ICANN so forth. 35 00:01:36,218 --> 00:01:38,108 I mean I was big user of the Internet 36 00:01:38,108 --> 00:01:41,697 and part of it but not of ICANN itself. 37 00:01:41,697 --> 00:01:43,793 How did you get the job? 38 00:01:44,864 --> 00:01:45,929 How did I get the job? 39 00:01:45,929 --> 00:01:47,685 Well, I've often wondered that myself. 40 00:01:47,685 --> 00:01:49,310 Okay. 41 00:01:49,310 --> 00:01:54,858 But I was invited to apply. 42 00:01:54,858 --> 00:01:56,755 And I suspect that the reason 43 00:01:56,755 --> 00:01:59,813 I got the job had a lot to do with Mike Roberts, 44 00:01:59,813 --> 00:02:01,950 who was my predecessor as a CEO. 45 00:02:01,950 --> 00:02:05,108 But Mike and I worked together for years in the university, 46 00:02:05,108 --> 00:02:07,064 in the academic community. 47 00:02:07,064 --> 00:02:08,488 And Mike knew me well 48 00:02:08,488 --> 00:02:11,417 and knew what kinds of things I'd accomplished. 49 00:02:11,417 --> 00:02:15,589 And I think he was very influential that... 50 00:02:15,589 --> 00:02:17,258 You know, I think there was a sense 51 00:02:17,258 --> 00:02:19,597 that universities are crazy places 52 00:02:19,597 --> 00:02:23,422 with a lot of it vociferous people 53 00:02:23,422 --> 00:02:25,342 with very different points of view. 54 00:02:25,342 --> 00:02:28,977 And that might have been a good training ground for ICANN, 55 00:02:28,977 --> 00:02:32,535 and to some extent, it was but not as much. 56 00:02:32,535 --> 00:02:35,444 When you came here at the beginning of your term, 57 00:02:35,444 --> 00:02:36,485 you were there for two years. 58 00:02:36,485 --> 00:02:37,533 Right. 59 00:02:37,533 --> 00:02:40,138 What did you see as your number one challenge? 60 00:02:40,138 --> 00:02:42,566 Well, my number one challenge when I came in 61 00:02:42,566 --> 00:02:45,785 was learning about all the different communities, 62 00:02:45,785 --> 00:02:47,789 all the different interests, 63 00:02:47,789 --> 00:02:51,629 the whole ICANN ecosystem 64 00:02:51,629 --> 00:02:54,780 was something that I do, something other parts of it, 65 00:02:54,780 --> 00:02:57,406 but I had a lot to learn. 66 00:02:57,406 --> 00:02:59,501 But then it became clear 67 00:02:59,501 --> 00:03:01,083 at least to me 68 00:03:01,083 --> 00:03:03,251 that the biggest challenge 69 00:03:03,251 --> 00:03:07,009 was what does it take to make this work 70 00:03:07,009 --> 00:03:09,345 'cause it appeared to be that 71 00:03:09,345 --> 00:03:13,425 it was very fractious at the time, which is not surprising. 72 00:03:13,425 --> 00:03:14,474 I mean, it was incredible 73 00:03:14,474 --> 00:03:15,515 how far... 74 00:03:16,544 --> 00:03:18,896 The founding parents of ICANN 75 00:03:18,896 --> 00:03:20,382 who made it coming 76 00:03:20,382 --> 00:03:22,903 in the couple of years before I came on 77 00:03:22,903 --> 00:03:26,747 and the concepts that they put together. 78 00:03:26,747 --> 00:03:29,909 But it still appeared to me that it was not working 79 00:03:29,909 --> 00:03:35,621 and that troubled me very much during the first year of my tenure. 80 00:03:35,621 --> 00:03:38,678 Stuart, that's interesting. You say it wasn't working. 81 00:03:38,678 --> 00:03:40,700 The perception now, 82 00:03:40,700 --> 00:03:44,705 many people are unfamiliar with ICANN's earlier stages. 83 00:03:44,705 --> 00:03:47,779 You are one of many of the founders of ICANN, 84 00:03:47,779 --> 00:03:51,642 the initial people who were there and during its early stages, 85 00:03:51,642 --> 00:03:56,221 who seemed to express its future wasn't at all guaranteed, 86 00:03:56,221 --> 00:03:57,803 and it was very uncertain. 87 00:03:57,803 --> 00:03:58,844 Absolutely. 88 00:04:00,851 --> 00:04:04,511 The enough entities and individuals, 89 00:04:04,511 --> 00:04:05,683 the criticisms were loud. 90 00:04:05,683 --> 00:04:07,671 If you look at the early blogs and so forth, 91 00:04:07,671 --> 00:04:10,431 the criticisms were loud and continuous. 92 00:04:12,004 --> 00:04:13,852 But, you know, in spite of that, 93 00:04:13,852 --> 00:04:16,532 there were always people, good people, 94 00:04:16,532 --> 00:04:17,863 the board of ICANN... 95 00:04:18,865 --> 00:04:20,308 And the staff, of course, 96 00:04:20,308 --> 00:04:22,488 but people out in the community 97 00:04:22,488 --> 00:04:25,081 who I think really wanted ICANN to succeed 98 00:04:25,081 --> 00:04:26,910 in spite of its dangers 99 00:04:26,910 --> 00:04:29,545 and were willing to put their shoulder 100 00:04:29,545 --> 00:04:32,324 to the wheel to help make that happen. 101 00:04:32,324 --> 00:04:34,936 And I'm talking to people like Vint Cerf, of course, 102 00:04:34,936 --> 00:04:37,376 was chair of the board when I was a there, 103 00:04:37,376 --> 00:04:38,834 wonderful chair, 104 00:04:38,834 --> 00:04:42,242 and people on the board and outside of the board. 105 00:04:42,242 --> 00:04:44,908 And then there was always the question of, 106 00:04:44,908 --> 00:04:46,267 "If not ICANN, what?" 107 00:04:48,145 --> 00:04:49,986 You know, if you take ICANN away... 108 00:04:51,022 --> 00:04:53,252 How are you going to put humpty dumpty together in a way 109 00:04:53,252 --> 00:04:54,295 that would really work? 110 00:04:54,295 --> 00:04:56,605 I mean, everybody who had a special interest 111 00:04:56,605 --> 00:04:59,107 would see their role is being... 112 00:05:01,162 --> 00:05:03,273 Critical and key and the most important, 113 00:05:03,273 --> 00:05:04,838 but it was... 114 00:05:04,838 --> 00:05:07,886 How do you put the community as a whole together? 115 00:05:07,886 --> 00:05:09,445 And there's nothing else on the table 116 00:05:09,445 --> 00:05:11,398 that I could remember 117 00:05:11,398 --> 00:05:13,749 whether it's any positive proposal 118 00:05:13,749 --> 00:05:16,763 of what it should be other than ICANN 119 00:05:16,763 --> 00:05:18,865 except possibly the ITU. 120 00:05:18,865 --> 00:05:21,712 In other words, it's easy to see the problems... 121 00:05:21,712 --> 00:05:24,019 - Exactly. - Particularly in those early days. 122 00:05:24,019 --> 00:05:25,702 But what's the alternative? 123 00:05:25,702 --> 00:05:27,432 Well, exactly, I mean, it's... 124 00:05:29,278 --> 00:05:30,578 The problems were obvious. 125 00:05:30,578 --> 00:05:33,935 I mean, we were trying to literally put Humpty Dumpty together. 126 00:05:33,935 --> 00:05:36,275 We had lots of pieces 127 00:05:36,275 --> 00:05:39,359 that were not in sync with each other. 128 00:05:40,388 --> 00:05:42,207 And that in a way was the beauty of ICANN 129 00:05:42,207 --> 00:05:46,103 as well is a place for bringing those pieces together. 130 00:05:46,103 --> 00:05:48,640 But it was going to take a lot of hard work 131 00:05:48,640 --> 00:05:50,950 over several years to make that happen. 132 00:05:50,950 --> 00:05:54,060 Was there a sense on your part 133 00:05:54,060 --> 00:05:56,822 or among your colleagues 134 00:05:56,822 --> 00:05:58,354 at ICANN at that point, 135 00:05:58,354 --> 00:06:00,424 "Hey, we're trying something 136 00:06:00,424 --> 00:06:01,711 that has never been done, 137 00:06:01,711 --> 00:06:04,832 we're trying an international organization 138 00:06:04,832 --> 00:06:07,391 where governments have a voice, 139 00:06:07,391 --> 00:06:09,155 but they don't have final decision-making... 140 00:06:10,194 --> 00:06:15,491 Where it's a bottom up sort of policy development model"? 141 00:06:15,491 --> 00:06:16,935 Was there that sense 142 00:06:16,935 --> 00:06:19,296 that we're trying something brand new? 143 00:06:19,296 --> 00:06:21,966 Absolutely. And it was... 144 00:06:21,966 --> 00:06:25,544 Before me, obviously, I mean, going back to Jon Postel, 145 00:06:25,544 --> 00:06:29,071 there was always that sense, this hadn't been done before. 146 00:06:29,071 --> 00:06:32,719 This needed a different kind of way of looking at things. 147 00:06:32,719 --> 00:06:34,005 It wasn't so much that... 148 00:06:35,735 --> 00:06:37,050 We were going to run the governments, 149 00:06:37,050 --> 00:06:39,005 so we were always conscious of the fact 150 00:06:39,005 --> 00:06:40,354 that we had to be aligned 151 00:06:40,354 --> 00:06:43,711 with how governments felt about ICANN 152 00:06:43,711 --> 00:06:47,055 that we couldn't go 90 degrees orthogonal. 153 00:06:47,055 --> 00:06:50,449 So that's why we had the GAC. 154 00:06:50,449 --> 00:06:52,014 And I presume it still has the GAC 155 00:06:52,014 --> 00:06:54,356 because it was such an important influence on us. 156 00:06:54,356 --> 00:06:57,925 And we had to work hard to bring cohesion 157 00:06:57,925 --> 00:06:59,292 among all the different groups. 158 00:07:00,443 --> 00:07:06,665 One year after your term as CEO began in February 2002, 159 00:07:06,665 --> 00:07:10,398 you posted an open letter to the Internet community, 160 00:07:10,398 --> 00:07:13,223 and I'd like you to elaborate on a few points 161 00:07:13,223 --> 00:07:15,308 that you made in that document. 162 00:07:15,308 --> 00:07:17,382 You said, and I quote, 163 00:07:17,382 --> 00:07:20,427 "ICANN is overburdened with process, 164 00:07:20,427 --> 00:07:24,234 and at the same time underfunded and understaffed." 165 00:07:25,703 --> 00:07:26,772 That was right. 166 00:07:26,772 --> 00:07:29,224 We expected to do an enormous amount. 167 00:07:30,260 --> 00:07:32,799 And we had a staff 168 00:07:32,799 --> 00:07:35,441 of about 19 people at the time 169 00:07:35,441 --> 00:07:40,177 trying to deal with this world of special interest out there 170 00:07:40,177 --> 00:07:42,994 as well as operational issues like the IANA. 171 00:07:45,429 --> 00:07:49,142 And we expect to do more than it could be done with a staff 172 00:07:49,142 --> 00:07:50,292 that small. 173 00:07:50,292 --> 00:07:52,428 On the other hand, there was a... 174 00:07:52,428 --> 00:07:56,129 What was drummed into me is don't expect ICANN to grow 175 00:07:56,129 --> 00:07:57,747 because 176 00:07:57,747 --> 00:08:01,338 the community is only interested in keeping it small. 177 00:08:01,338 --> 00:08:02,690 - And... - Really? 178 00:08:02,690 --> 00:08:04,306 - Oh, yeah, it was... - Why? 179 00:08:05,430 --> 00:08:09,105 I suspected and want ICANN to be too powerful 180 00:08:09,105 --> 00:08:10,373 at least at that time. 181 00:08:12,460 --> 00:08:13,558 There was a question of funding, 182 00:08:13,558 --> 00:08:15,121 there's always a question of funding, 183 00:08:15,121 --> 00:08:16,435 we're all beggars. 184 00:08:17,496 --> 00:08:19,435 We had to... 185 00:08:19,435 --> 00:08:24,259 We never knew what ccTLDs were willing to contribute. 186 00:08:25,750 --> 00:08:28,680 Our sources of funding were always uncertain. 187 00:08:28,680 --> 00:08:30,893 ICANN was started off initially with a loan 188 00:08:30,893 --> 00:08:34,391 that we then did pay off, but there was always... 189 00:08:34,391 --> 00:08:36,328 It was always uncertain. 190 00:08:36,328 --> 00:08:38,170 So every year, 191 00:08:38,170 --> 00:08:40,824 hat in hand, we had to go to the community 192 00:08:40,824 --> 00:08:43,114 and beg for the next year. 193 00:08:43,114 --> 00:08:46,410 So yeah, I look at ICANN today, 194 00:08:46,410 --> 00:08:52,108 and I'm both impressed and amazed about how large it's grown. 195 00:08:52,108 --> 00:08:55,789 And that was inconceivable when I was... 196 00:08:55,789 --> 00:08:57,285 At the time, I was a CEO. 197 00:08:57,285 --> 00:09:00,258 - That was on no one's radar. - No one's radar. No. 198 00:09:00,258 --> 00:09:02,376 Well, maybe I can't answer for everybody, 199 00:09:02,376 --> 00:09:04,636 but that was my impression. 200 00:09:04,636 --> 00:09:08,827 You also said in this open letter to the community 201 00:09:08,827 --> 00:09:12,476 that you had done a year after you had started. 202 00:09:12,476 --> 00:09:14,467 And let me quote directly, 203 00:09:14,467 --> 00:09:16,354 "ICANN in its current form 204 00:09:16,354 --> 00:09:18,172 has not become the effective steward 205 00:09:18,172 --> 00:09:20,392 of the global Internet's naming 206 00:09:20,392 --> 00:09:22,264 and address allocation systems 207 00:09:22,264 --> 00:09:24,749 as conceived by its founders. 208 00:09:24,749 --> 00:09:26,892 Perhaps, even more importantly, 209 00:09:26,892 --> 00:09:30,821 the passage of time has not increased the confidence 210 00:09:30,821 --> 00:09:32,141 that it can meet 211 00:09:32,141 --> 00:09:35,076 its original expectations and hopes." 212 00:09:35,076 --> 00:09:37,352 That sounds pretty dire. 213 00:09:37,352 --> 00:09:39,050 Well, it seemed pretty dire at the time. 214 00:09:39,050 --> 00:09:40,734 I don't remember the exact details 215 00:09:40,734 --> 00:09:43,919 of what led me to that conclusion. 216 00:09:43,919 --> 00:09:45,349 But I do remember that... 217 00:09:46,950 --> 00:09:49,059 Both from discussions within the staff... 218 00:09:50,271 --> 00:09:53,401 And discussions outside... 219 00:09:54,472 --> 00:09:57,525 It was far from clear that ICANN could survive 220 00:09:57,525 --> 00:09:59,658 in its present mode of operation. 221 00:10:00,680 --> 00:10:03,799 One of the things that I felt 222 00:10:03,799 --> 00:10:06,170 needed to be done was to find a way 223 00:10:06,170 --> 00:10:09,864 to bring in the community into the decision process 224 00:10:09,864 --> 00:10:11,166 of what ICANN should be. 225 00:10:12,575 --> 00:10:13,881 I put that document out, 226 00:10:13,881 --> 00:10:16,977 and of course, that document had a lot of internal discussion 227 00:10:16,977 --> 00:10:19,945 with the staff and certain members of the board. 228 00:10:21,263 --> 00:10:24,070 One of the main purposes was to stir things up, 229 00:10:24,070 --> 00:10:27,423 was to get an important dialogue going 230 00:10:27,423 --> 00:10:29,967 because otherwise it was always kind of uncertain 231 00:10:29,967 --> 00:10:32,907 about what ICANN should be, what it should do. 232 00:10:32,907 --> 00:10:34,859 It's going to be effective. 233 00:10:34,859 --> 00:10:35,900 Then... 234 00:10:37,122 --> 00:10:39,082 ICANN needs some cement 235 00:10:39,082 --> 00:10:40,482 between its building blocks 236 00:10:40,482 --> 00:10:43,226 that would help it really survive into the future. 237 00:10:44,511 --> 00:10:45,684 ICANN has always... 238 00:10:47,489 --> 00:10:49,563 Seemed to have since its earliest days 239 00:10:49,563 --> 00:10:53,018 that sort of always trying to define itself 240 00:10:53,018 --> 00:10:54,999 and its relationship with governments, 241 00:10:54,999 --> 00:10:57,774 generally the US government specifically. 242 00:10:57,774 --> 00:11:00,238 You sort of touched on that point in your letter. 243 00:11:00,238 --> 00:11:03,144 You said, "ICANN is at a crossroads, 244 00:11:03,144 --> 00:11:05,724 the process of relocating functions 245 00:11:05,724 --> 00:11:09,162 from the US government to ICANN is stalled. 246 00:11:09,162 --> 00:11:12,278 I believe that ICANN's ability to make further progress 247 00:11:12,278 --> 00:11:15,472 is blocked by its structural weakness. 248 00:11:15,472 --> 00:11:17,208 To put it bluntly 249 00:11:17,208 --> 00:11:18,561 on its present course, 250 00:11:18,561 --> 00:11:22,432 ICANN cannot accomplish its assigned mission. 251 00:11:22,432 --> 00:11:27,230 A new path, a new and reform structure is required." 252 00:11:27,230 --> 00:11:29,312 What came back at you 253 00:11:29,312 --> 00:11:30,415 after you wrote those words? 254 00:11:31,911 --> 00:11:34,633 Well, it was first discussed with the board. 255 00:11:34,633 --> 00:11:37,108 And the board was very... 256 00:11:37,108 --> 00:11:39,303 Most of the board at least was very supportive. 257 00:11:40,696 --> 00:11:42,530 Certain of the constituencies... 258 00:11:43,731 --> 00:11:46,210 As expected and in fact welcomed, 259 00:11:46,210 --> 00:11:48,792 had their own vocal opinions. 260 00:11:48,792 --> 00:11:51,684 And what was put out was a straw-man. 261 00:11:51,684 --> 00:11:53,564 It wasn't saying this is what it should be. 262 00:11:53,564 --> 00:11:55,344 It was a straw-man to say, 263 00:11:55,344 --> 00:11:58,626 use this as a starting point to discuss 264 00:11:58,626 --> 00:12:00,561 and find out what ICANN should be. 265 00:12:00,561 --> 00:12:03,850 Some of the organizations took it as a final blueprint. 266 00:12:03,850 --> 00:12:06,877 And it was probably a failure on my part 267 00:12:06,877 --> 00:12:08,114 that I didn't make it 268 00:12:08,114 --> 00:12:10,089 clear that it was a straw-man 269 00:12:10,089 --> 00:12:12,091 tended to provoke discussion 270 00:12:12,091 --> 00:12:13,221 not a final answer. 271 00:12:13,221 --> 00:12:14,891 So you were actually trying to poke people 272 00:12:14,891 --> 00:12:17,951 into aggressive and detailed conversation. 273 00:12:17,951 --> 00:12:19,720 Yeah, yeah. 274 00:12:19,720 --> 00:12:23,443 Just having discussions on blogs or in rooms and in private rooms 275 00:12:23,443 --> 00:12:25,759 and writing memos wasn't going to do it. 276 00:12:25,759 --> 00:12:27,685 It needed to be a very open discussion. 277 00:12:28,919 --> 00:12:31,320 And subsequently, the board took on the challenge. 278 00:12:33,027 --> 00:12:34,748 Alejandro Pisanty 279 00:12:34,748 --> 00:12:37,198 did a brilliant job of chairing a board committee 280 00:12:37,198 --> 00:12:40,822 to help bring that constituency involvement together 281 00:12:40,822 --> 00:12:45,586 and to help define what ICANN should be going forward. 282 00:12:45,586 --> 00:12:49,899 Stuart, what was the toughest part of your job 283 00:12:49,899 --> 00:12:51,193 at that time? 284 00:12:51,193 --> 00:12:52,817 Well, the toughest part, of course, was... 285 00:12:54,252 --> 00:12:56,053 I mean, there were two toughest parts. 286 00:12:56,053 --> 00:12:57,222 The travel was tough. 287 00:12:58,270 --> 00:12:59,319 People think of travel 288 00:12:59,319 --> 00:13:01,077 as being this great big wonderful thing. 289 00:13:01,077 --> 00:13:03,386 But as far as the job was concerned, 290 00:13:03,386 --> 00:13:06,025 it was trying to find a path 291 00:13:06,025 --> 00:13:08,623 to bring constituencies together... 292 00:13:11,487 --> 00:13:13,219 And putting the interests of the Internet 293 00:13:13,219 --> 00:13:17,706 as a whole ahead of parochial interest. 294 00:13:17,706 --> 00:13:19,022 What do you mean? 295 00:13:20,739 --> 00:13:23,577 Well, you're asking me to go back 18 years. 296 00:13:23,577 --> 00:13:24,846 Right. Right, right. 297 00:13:24,846 --> 00:13:25,964 Well, not 18. 298 00:13:25,964 --> 00:13:27,623 I guess what I'm asking you is... 299 00:13:28,871 --> 00:13:30,207 Are you saying 300 00:13:30,207 --> 00:13:31,605 everybody had a self-interest, 301 00:13:31,605 --> 00:13:33,934 but there was not an interest about ICANN itself? 302 00:13:35,326 --> 00:13:36,387 It was varied. 303 00:13:36,387 --> 00:13:38,530 As I mentioned earlier, 304 00:13:38,530 --> 00:13:40,302 with some people, 305 00:13:40,302 --> 00:13:42,947 I'll call them the royalty of the Internet, 306 00:13:42,947 --> 00:13:47,125 did have the interest in putting the Internet first 307 00:13:47,125 --> 00:13:49,287 and accepting that ICANN 308 00:13:49,287 --> 00:13:51,026 had an important role to play in that. 309 00:13:52,053 --> 00:13:56,432 But there were enough noise makers who... 310 00:13:57,890 --> 00:14:00,140 I don't want to accuse them of not putting the Internet first, 311 00:14:00,140 --> 00:14:02,034 they had their own view. 312 00:14:02,034 --> 00:14:03,679 And they probably should 313 00:14:03,679 --> 00:14:07,054 of what constituted... 314 00:14:09,786 --> 00:14:11,896 Putting the Internet first 315 00:14:11,896 --> 00:14:13,581 but that view 316 00:14:13,581 --> 00:14:15,357 tended to reflect their own interests 317 00:14:15,357 --> 00:14:16,505 more than it did, 318 00:14:16,505 --> 00:14:18,902 understanding that there was a much broader 319 00:14:18,902 --> 00:14:20,197 set of constituencies 320 00:14:20,197 --> 00:14:21,652 held there than just... 321 00:14:23,032 --> 00:14:24,074 What they saw. 322 00:14:26,818 --> 00:14:28,423 And it sounds like 323 00:14:28,423 --> 00:14:30,464 in doing the background 324 00:14:30,464 --> 00:14:32,734 when I was researching for this interview, 325 00:14:32,734 --> 00:14:35,923 it sounds like your correspond, your letter, 326 00:14:35,923 --> 00:14:37,997 your open letter had the desired effect. 327 00:14:37,997 --> 00:14:40,118 It sounds like it did, it was successful. 328 00:14:40,118 --> 00:14:41,165 It's so prompting. 329 00:14:41,165 --> 00:14:44,822 It's over provoked reaction and some very strong reactions. 330 00:14:44,822 --> 00:14:47,139 And I think... 331 00:14:48,185 --> 00:14:50,405 People thought at the time that maybe 332 00:14:50,405 --> 00:14:52,283 I didn't want those strong reactions. 333 00:14:52,283 --> 00:14:56,062 In fact, that were exactly what was wanted 334 00:14:56,062 --> 00:14:58,849 'cause it created discussions 335 00:14:58,849 --> 00:15:01,679 that need to be aired in order to bring... 336 00:15:02,716 --> 00:15:04,731 To create a path going forward. 337 00:15:06,361 --> 00:15:07,975 Let's go there for just a minute. 338 00:15:07,975 --> 00:15:11,429 Talk to me about the so-called program of reform 339 00:15:11,429 --> 00:15:12,825 that followed your letter. 340 00:15:16,005 --> 00:15:17,746 And I don't care about the exact details, 341 00:15:17,746 --> 00:15:20,439 but where did that want to take the organization? 342 00:15:22,042 --> 00:15:25,398 Well, I wanted to take the organizations 343 00:15:25,398 --> 00:15:28,509 where I had a firmer foundation moving forward. 344 00:15:28,509 --> 00:15:30,181 The details of what happened... 345 00:15:31,599 --> 00:15:34,136 Some of the recommendations, 346 00:15:34,136 --> 00:15:36,816 I think or statements in the straw document 347 00:15:36,816 --> 00:15:38,032 were adopted. 348 00:15:38,032 --> 00:15:39,683 I mean, I know I personally felt 349 00:15:39,683 --> 00:15:43,595 that there need to be a clear role 350 00:15:43,595 --> 00:15:47,028 for the ccTLDs 351 00:15:47,028 --> 00:15:49,597 which were part of that time 352 00:15:49,597 --> 00:15:53,818 what's now the GNSO and the ccTLD, 353 00:15:53,818 --> 00:15:57,276 and so part of a single organization. 354 00:15:57,276 --> 00:16:00,683 And its input was not actually dominated 355 00:16:00,683 --> 00:16:03,135 by the generic domain 356 00:16:03,135 --> 00:16:06,170 hold registries. 357 00:16:08,745 --> 00:16:10,943 I felt strongly that the ccNSO, 358 00:16:11,956 --> 00:16:13,285 it was more than a straw-man... 359 00:16:14,321 --> 00:16:17,640 Needed to have its own voice independently, 360 00:16:17,640 --> 00:16:19,409 get access to the board 361 00:16:19,409 --> 00:16:21,104 with its all recommendations 362 00:16:21,104 --> 00:16:23,180 because their needs 363 00:16:23,180 --> 00:16:25,973 and their role in relation to ICANN 364 00:16:25,973 --> 00:16:29,573 was very different than that of the GNS, 365 00:16:29,573 --> 00:16:31,503 generic domain name registries. 366 00:16:31,503 --> 00:16:33,065 And after that point 367 00:16:33,065 --> 00:16:34,273 that had not been a consideration? 368 00:16:34,273 --> 00:16:35,754 - No. - No. 369 00:16:35,754 --> 00:16:36,990 Well, when it was considered, 370 00:16:36,990 --> 00:16:38,677 I don't know, it wasn't implemented. 371 00:16:38,677 --> 00:16:40,036 And in fact... 372 00:16:41,328 --> 00:16:43,938 The concept came up right on this... 373 00:16:45,062 --> 00:16:47,124 Right out here at this patio, 374 00:16:47,124 --> 00:16:51,969 I invited some of the ccTLD folks out here, 375 00:16:51,969 --> 00:16:53,979 Theresa Swinehart came out. 376 00:16:53,979 --> 00:16:57,007 And we had some free ranging discussions 377 00:16:57,007 --> 00:16:59,574 about what should it look like 378 00:16:59,574 --> 00:17:01,965 and then help put it together. 379 00:17:01,965 --> 00:17:04,868 - And that was its birth. - That was its birth. Yes. 380 00:17:04,868 --> 00:17:08,143 So those are serious questions, 381 00:17:08,143 --> 00:17:09,299 as well as what should be 382 00:17:09,299 --> 00:17:12,328 the future of the At-Large community. 383 00:17:15,075 --> 00:17:18,001 Carl Bildt, the former prime minister of Sweden, 384 00:17:18,001 --> 00:17:20,798 had kindly chaired a committee 385 00:17:20,798 --> 00:17:22,191 to make recommendations 386 00:17:22,191 --> 00:17:27,204 as to how the rest of the Internet community, 387 00:17:27,204 --> 00:17:31,026 the users, and everyone out there should be involved, 388 00:17:31,026 --> 00:17:33,456 and came up with some recommendations. 389 00:17:33,456 --> 00:17:35,223 And there are serious questions 390 00:17:35,223 --> 00:17:40,569 about should we construct voting constituents? 391 00:17:40,569 --> 00:17:44,247 They can elect At-Large members to be part of ICANN. 392 00:17:44,247 --> 00:17:46,119 And it was an impossible problem. 393 00:17:46,119 --> 00:17:48,792 And so we made some recommendations 394 00:17:48,792 --> 00:17:50,828 of putting an advisory committee together 395 00:17:50,828 --> 00:17:53,914 instead of NSO... 396 00:17:55,231 --> 00:17:58,100 And that was one of the things that came out as well. 397 00:17:58,100 --> 00:18:02,372 It was felt a need to have routes into ICANN 398 00:18:02,372 --> 00:18:06,294 and into the board for individuals or groups 399 00:18:06,294 --> 00:18:08,262 who felt they had been heard. 400 00:18:08,262 --> 00:18:10,636 And we put forward this Ombudsman program as well 401 00:18:10,636 --> 00:18:12,831 to help make that happen. 402 00:18:12,831 --> 00:18:16,231 So that was the beginning of ICANNs Ombudsman program? 403 00:18:16,231 --> 00:18:19,156 I believe so. Yes, it was as I recall. Yeah. 404 00:18:19,156 --> 00:18:21,862 Stuart, in your keys for reform you called for... 405 00:18:21,862 --> 00:18:23,335 And this quite surprised me. 406 00:18:23,335 --> 00:18:26,580 You called for more direct governmental involvement 407 00:18:26,580 --> 00:18:30,408 with a third of ICANN Board members 408 00:18:30,408 --> 00:18:32,835 named by the GAC or governments. 409 00:18:33,852 --> 00:18:35,449 That kind of surprised me when I read that. 410 00:18:35,449 --> 00:18:37,364 That surprises me that I said that. 411 00:18:38,519 --> 00:18:42,587 And I think what was in my mind going back was, 412 00:18:42,587 --> 00:18:43,976 again, I wanted to provoke. 413 00:18:45,590 --> 00:18:47,576 There needed to be a clear understanding 414 00:18:47,576 --> 00:18:48,802 of what the role of governments 415 00:18:48,802 --> 00:18:52,639 was going to be or should be going forward. 416 00:18:52,639 --> 00:18:56,374 And I think I felt that the... 417 00:18:58,826 --> 00:19:01,195 Louis and some of the rest of us felt, 418 00:19:01,195 --> 00:19:03,204 the best way to get this answer 419 00:19:03,204 --> 00:19:05,915 was to put something extreme out there 420 00:19:05,915 --> 00:19:08,438 and let the chips fall, let it sort itself out. 421 00:19:08,438 --> 00:19:11,044 It sounds like a lot of what you were involved with 422 00:19:11,044 --> 00:19:12,662 was trying to prompt 423 00:19:12,662 --> 00:19:14,869 aggressive conversation ideas, push things along. 424 00:19:14,869 --> 00:19:16,179 Exactly. 425 00:19:16,179 --> 00:19:18,420 Get them in the open, get them discussed. 426 00:19:20,065 --> 00:19:21,133 Yeah, I mean... 427 00:19:22,535 --> 00:19:23,840 I don't want to back off entirely, 428 00:19:23,840 --> 00:19:27,502 the straw-man was put together with some sense of things 429 00:19:27,502 --> 00:19:31,001 that needed to be at least examined and maybe even happen. 430 00:19:31,001 --> 00:19:34,229 But it wasn't intended to be a final document and final answer. 431 00:19:35,421 --> 00:19:36,593 What was the... 432 00:19:37,910 --> 00:19:41,796 Most rewarding part of your term? 433 00:19:41,796 --> 00:19:44,124 Oh, working with some fantastic people. 434 00:19:44,124 --> 00:19:46,002 I mean, it was... 435 00:19:47,654 --> 00:19:50,975 So good to work with people from all around the world 436 00:19:50,975 --> 00:19:55,260 and staff who were dedicated to making 437 00:19:55,260 --> 00:19:56,590 not just ICANN work 438 00:19:56,590 --> 00:19:59,443 but making the Internet work the way it should. 439 00:19:59,443 --> 00:20:00,483 I mean... 440 00:20:00,483 --> 00:20:01,987 It sounds pretty idealistic. 441 00:20:01,987 --> 00:20:03,061 Well, it was. 442 00:20:03,061 --> 00:20:05,246 I mean, you had so many communities involved 443 00:20:05,246 --> 00:20:07,228 with the technical side to the business side, 444 00:20:07,228 --> 00:20:10,316 to the government side, to the user side, 445 00:20:10,316 --> 00:20:12,458 so many stakeholders. 446 00:20:12,458 --> 00:20:14,849 But what was so rewarding 447 00:20:14,849 --> 00:20:18,722 was seeing this kind of passionate interest 448 00:20:18,722 --> 00:20:21,734 in the Internet and it being successful. 449 00:20:21,734 --> 00:20:23,378 Yeah, I mean, 450 00:20:23,378 --> 00:20:25,759 rightly so I had 451 00:20:25,759 --> 00:20:27,220 financial interest involved. 452 00:20:27,220 --> 00:20:29,014 We're good. That's part of the way it works. 453 00:20:29,014 --> 00:20:31,213 We need that part... 454 00:20:32,719 --> 00:20:35,608 Well, user's part where technical people 455 00:20:35,608 --> 00:20:39,664 who put their life into designing the underpinnings of the Internet, 456 00:20:39,664 --> 00:20:42,861 making sure that we're running an open Internet 457 00:20:42,861 --> 00:20:44,163 that was going to be 458 00:20:44,163 --> 00:20:46,155 available to the community as a whole. 459 00:20:47,882 --> 00:20:49,784 So that was the most rewarding experience, 460 00:20:49,784 --> 00:20:52,135 and it's just seeing so many people working 461 00:20:52,135 --> 00:20:53,582 with so many people 462 00:20:53,582 --> 00:20:56,397 who are absolutely dedicated to the future of the Internet. 463 00:20:57,529 --> 00:20:59,293 Was there ever a time 464 00:20:59,293 --> 00:21:01,537 during your term 465 00:21:01,537 --> 00:21:03,521 when you thought this thing, 466 00:21:03,521 --> 00:21:05,662 this ICANN experiment, it's not going to work? 467 00:21:08,410 --> 00:21:10,450 Because of the kinds of people I just mentioned, 468 00:21:10,450 --> 00:21:13,062 I never thought it was not going to work. 469 00:21:13,062 --> 00:21:15,466 I always thought it had a very difficult road. 470 00:21:15,466 --> 00:21:18,770 And I thought the notion, I don't rely over voices, 471 00:21:18,770 --> 00:21:22,712 but I felt at the time that the notion of the... 472 00:21:26,098 --> 00:21:28,607 Ultimate control moving from the US government, 473 00:21:28,607 --> 00:21:30,689 ICANN and the community as a whole 474 00:21:30,689 --> 00:21:32,788 was going to take a lot longer than 475 00:21:32,788 --> 00:21:35,228 I think people who are hoping. 476 00:21:35,228 --> 00:21:37,819 And in fact, if I have to be quite honest, 477 00:21:37,819 --> 00:21:39,898 in those early days, 478 00:21:39,898 --> 00:21:42,129 there was some benefit to the US government 479 00:21:42,129 --> 00:21:43,447 having the role that it did. 480 00:21:44,633 --> 00:21:46,848 It sort of protected ICANN from some things 481 00:21:46,848 --> 00:21:49,303 that should not have happened. 482 00:21:51,551 --> 00:21:53,497 The model of ICANN, 483 00:21:53,497 --> 00:21:56,081 this Ira Magaziner who was the... 484 00:21:56,081 --> 00:21:57,750 Right, he was... 485 00:21:57,750 --> 00:21:59,206 In a sense, 486 00:21:59,206 --> 00:22:01,080 when I interviewed him, 487 00:22:01,080 --> 00:22:03,266 I said, in a sense, 488 00:22:03,266 --> 00:22:05,007 you could be considered that... 489 00:22:05,007 --> 00:22:07,685 The way Vint is considered the father of the Internet, 490 00:22:07,685 --> 00:22:10,359 you might well be considered the father of ICANN. 491 00:22:10,359 --> 00:22:11,733 Sounds like you agree. 492 00:22:11,733 --> 00:22:12,932 Absolutely. Yeah. 493 00:22:14,434 --> 00:22:18,146 It was one of the good things to come out of that administration 494 00:22:18,146 --> 00:22:22,074 and do credit to the Bush administration. 495 00:22:23,947 --> 00:22:25,663 You know, well, not just the administration 496 00:22:25,663 --> 00:22:26,797 but the Senate and the Congress, 497 00:22:26,797 --> 00:22:28,752 there was always senators and congressmen 498 00:22:28,752 --> 00:22:30,097 who would like to posture 499 00:22:30,097 --> 00:22:32,212 and a good way to posture was to attack ICANN, 500 00:22:32,212 --> 00:22:34,587 but the reality was 501 00:22:34,587 --> 00:22:39,794 that no one wanted ICANN to fail in the US government. 502 00:22:39,794 --> 00:22:42,586 I don't say no one but no one we came in contact with. 503 00:22:45,334 --> 00:22:49,957 Was there a viable threat from the UN, generally ITU? 504 00:22:51,807 --> 00:22:54,054 It was always viable. 505 00:22:54,054 --> 00:22:55,095 Because... 506 00:22:56,493 --> 00:22:58,379 In the end if the government's got together 507 00:22:58,379 --> 00:22:59,772 and the US government agreed... 508 00:23:01,700 --> 00:23:05,638 They could have taken over responsibility. 509 00:23:07,823 --> 00:23:08,865 I used to ask... 510 00:23:10,068 --> 00:23:12,148 "How could you give responsibility to the Internet 511 00:23:12,148 --> 00:23:13,196 to an organization 512 00:23:13,196 --> 00:23:15,723 that can't put a delete button on the telephone? 513 00:23:15,723 --> 00:23:18,255 So I have to redial the whole number 514 00:23:18,255 --> 00:23:19,960 if I make a mistake." 515 00:23:19,960 --> 00:23:23,272 But, you know, they're very capable organization. 516 00:23:23,272 --> 00:23:25,553 They did good work and so forth. 517 00:23:25,553 --> 00:23:27,360 But I never felt, 518 00:23:27,360 --> 00:23:29,449 and I don't think anyone intimately involved 519 00:23:29,449 --> 00:23:32,046 with the Internet really felt 520 00:23:32,046 --> 00:23:33,094 that... 521 00:23:34,366 --> 00:23:38,524 They were right for this kind of emerging Internet to the way 522 00:23:38,524 --> 00:23:41,858 it was rather than the kind of almost top-down nature 523 00:23:41,858 --> 00:23:45,471 of the telephone community. 524 00:23:45,471 --> 00:23:48,220 I'm interested in your personal feeling. 525 00:23:49,421 --> 00:23:51,327 Do you feel like you helped... 526 00:23:52,349 --> 00:23:54,058 Build and create something 527 00:23:54,058 --> 00:23:56,510 that had never been seen before 528 00:23:56,510 --> 00:23:59,207 or something that was totally unique 529 00:23:59,207 --> 00:24:01,483 that to a large degree helped shape 530 00:24:01,483 --> 00:24:03,634 the future of the Internet 531 00:24:03,634 --> 00:24:05,985 or was this is just a two-year gig for you? 532 00:24:05,985 --> 00:24:08,575 It was not a two-year gig for me. 533 00:24:08,575 --> 00:24:10,142 There are a lot better two-year gigs 534 00:24:10,142 --> 00:24:12,308 I could have chosen. 535 00:24:12,308 --> 00:24:15,662 They were far less demanding and strenuous 536 00:24:15,662 --> 00:24:18,528 and less straight on my health. 537 00:24:18,528 --> 00:24:21,618 Now I really hope I can do something useful... 538 00:24:22,640 --> 00:24:26,081 Within the community to help catalyze change 539 00:24:26,081 --> 00:24:27,506 that was needed. 540 00:24:27,506 --> 00:24:30,158 And I'll leave it to others to judge 541 00:24:30,158 --> 00:24:32,361 as to whether achieve that. 542 00:24:32,361 --> 00:24:34,341 But let me make it perfectly clear. 543 00:24:34,341 --> 00:24:38,064 Nothing and against done in ICANN or anywhere 544 00:24:38,064 --> 00:24:40,696 is because the CEO of ICANN wants it to happen. 545 00:24:43,302 --> 00:24:46,964 It takes a village to build ICANN 546 00:24:46,964 --> 00:24:52,067 and to make its role to help fulfill its role. 547 00:24:52,067 --> 00:24:53,361 Let's deal with that for a second. 548 00:24:53,361 --> 00:24:54,790 That's an important point. 549 00:24:54,790 --> 00:24:56,692 In most traditional organizations, 550 00:24:56,692 --> 00:24:59,842 the CEO is the final word not in ICANN. 551 00:24:59,842 --> 00:25:01,352 Not in ICANN. 552 00:25:01,352 --> 00:25:03,032 No. 553 00:25:03,032 --> 00:25:04,111 Not at all. 554 00:25:04,111 --> 00:25:06,942 And of course, the board plays a very strong role, 555 00:25:06,942 --> 00:25:09,416 and of course, the community plays a huge role. 556 00:25:10,561 --> 00:25:14,364 ICANN is not a typical top-down organization. 557 00:25:15,631 --> 00:25:17,328 I remember Vint and I had a meeting 558 00:25:17,328 --> 00:25:21,225 with the then secretary of commerce and President Bush, 559 00:25:21,225 --> 00:25:23,537 and I don't remember his name. 560 00:25:23,537 --> 00:25:26,054 And it was clear... 561 00:25:26,054 --> 00:25:27,859 He came from a business background, 562 00:25:27,859 --> 00:25:30,664 I mean, very successful, was very capable individual. 563 00:25:30,664 --> 00:25:34,539 It was clear, he didn't understand the Internet 564 00:25:34,539 --> 00:25:37,214 and why it was something very different 565 00:25:37,214 --> 00:25:38,255 than... 566 00:25:39,343 --> 00:25:42,478 Organizations that he'd been involved with before, 567 00:25:42,478 --> 00:25:45,185 it was not a top-down organization. 568 00:25:45,185 --> 00:25:47,622 He did make one comment that I think he was right. 569 00:25:47,622 --> 00:25:49,571 And I remember at the time, he said, 570 00:25:49,571 --> 00:25:50,835 "You know, 571 00:25:50,835 --> 00:25:53,123 you're too small to accomplish anything useful. 572 00:25:54,424 --> 00:25:57,308 And you need to be much larger 573 00:25:57,308 --> 00:25:59,571 to make an imprint and make a difference. 574 00:25:59,571 --> 00:26:01,726 Which flies in the face of the conventional wisdom 575 00:26:01,726 --> 00:26:03,039 you laid out earlier. 576 00:26:03,039 --> 00:26:05,506 That was being put on us at the time. 577 00:26:05,506 --> 00:26:06,595 But he was right. 578 00:26:06,595 --> 00:26:10,308 And one of the good things is to see that ICANN has grown 579 00:26:10,308 --> 00:26:11,426 to where it can be... 580 00:26:13,020 --> 00:26:14,083 Effective in the way 581 00:26:14,083 --> 00:26:15,852 that it was originally conceived to be. 582 00:26:17,497 --> 00:26:19,276 You said 583 00:26:19,276 --> 00:26:20,837 you'll leave it up to others 584 00:26:20,837 --> 00:26:22,466 to judge what you accomplished. 585 00:26:22,466 --> 00:26:23,546 Sure. 586 00:26:23,546 --> 00:26:24,725 I'm going to throw that back at you 587 00:26:24,725 --> 00:26:26,445 and ask you to give me a self-appraisal. 588 00:26:26,445 --> 00:26:27,708 Do you feel good 589 00:26:27,708 --> 00:26:29,173 about what you were able to accomplish 590 00:26:29,173 --> 00:26:31,162 during that two-year stint? 591 00:26:31,162 --> 00:26:32,203 I do. 592 00:26:33,616 --> 00:26:35,405 When I came in, 593 00:26:35,405 --> 00:26:38,437 I'd already retired for the second time. 594 00:26:38,437 --> 00:26:39,500 And... 595 00:26:41,653 --> 00:26:44,779 I was very surprised that I was even pulled back into the saddle. 596 00:26:44,779 --> 00:26:47,639 But one of the things went through my mind is that, 597 00:26:47,639 --> 00:26:49,364 "Stuart, you're old enough, you're in a position, 598 00:26:49,364 --> 00:26:50,777 your career doesn't matter, 599 00:26:50,777 --> 00:26:53,158 you can just do whatever you think is right, 600 00:26:53,158 --> 00:26:55,058 help make things happen. 601 00:26:55,058 --> 00:26:58,011 And if it works, fine. 602 00:26:58,011 --> 00:26:59,313 The community thing, it works fine. 603 00:26:59,313 --> 00:27:00,398 If they don't, 604 00:27:00,398 --> 00:27:05,897 'Hey, I got a nice place to retire too so no big deal.'" 605 00:27:05,897 --> 00:27:08,766 So when I left, I felt 606 00:27:08,766 --> 00:27:12,687 that I had accomplished something useful, 607 00:27:12,687 --> 00:27:14,612 mostly about the change in ICANN 608 00:27:14,612 --> 00:27:16,931 and there are other things that went on all the way through... 609 00:27:18,430 --> 00:27:22,981 Besides this big revolutionary organization. 610 00:27:25,524 --> 00:27:26,664 And in two years, I felt 611 00:27:26,664 --> 00:27:28,246 I accomplished what I could accomplish. 612 00:27:29,997 --> 00:27:31,953 When you left 613 00:27:31,953 --> 00:27:33,066 as CEO 614 00:27:33,066 --> 00:27:36,024 and Paul Twomey was coming in as your successor... 615 00:27:37,052 --> 00:27:40,244 Did you give him any special advice or counsel? 616 00:27:40,244 --> 00:27:42,240 Well, I don't remember, you should ask him that. 617 00:27:43,713 --> 00:27:44,976 What I do remember was 618 00:27:44,976 --> 00:27:48,502 I was so happy that Paul my successor, 619 00:27:48,502 --> 00:27:50,163 Paul was chair at the GAC 620 00:27:50,163 --> 00:27:51,839 during my term, 621 00:27:51,839 --> 00:27:54,057 he did it brilliantly. 622 00:27:54,057 --> 00:27:56,037 And I felt that... 623 00:27:57,350 --> 00:27:58,599 ICANN needed someone 624 00:27:58,599 --> 00:28:02,075 who had more experience in understanding of governments, 625 00:28:02,075 --> 00:28:05,289 and I did in order to move forward to the next step. 626 00:28:06,301 --> 00:28:10,509 And I was so happy to see Paul come in and take over. 627 00:28:10,509 --> 00:28:12,784 And he did a great job. 628 00:28:12,784 --> 00:28:16,477 I may have been the catalyst in the reorganization of ICANN. 629 00:28:16,477 --> 00:28:17,914 He was among many other things, 630 00:28:17,914 --> 00:28:21,338 the catalyst in developing a funding model for ICANN 631 00:28:21,338 --> 00:28:25,573 that enabled it to grow to accomplish its objectives. 632 00:28:25,573 --> 00:28:30,049 Is it overly simplistic to ask you for your single best memory 633 00:28:30,049 --> 00:28:31,897 of your term in that two-year period? 634 00:28:31,897 --> 00:28:33,055 Oh! 635 00:28:34,634 --> 00:28:36,298 This may be different than you expect. 636 00:28:37,707 --> 00:28:39,348 It's where I was on 9/11. 637 00:28:41,001 --> 00:28:45,882 ICANN had held a meeting in Montevideo in Uruguay. 638 00:28:45,882 --> 00:28:48,900 On the 10th of September was the board meeting. 639 00:28:48,900 --> 00:28:50,051 That evening... 640 00:28:51,559 --> 00:28:52,953 Theresa Swinehart and I... 641 00:28:54,073 --> 00:28:57,250 Were flying to Santiago in Chile... 642 00:28:58,593 --> 00:29:00,446 And to meet with... 643 00:29:01,939 --> 00:29:06,763 The director, Patricio Poblete and his associates. 644 00:29:06,763 --> 00:29:10,557 And we flew the flight that the... 645 00:29:10,557 --> 00:29:11,811 I think it was a rugby team, 646 00:29:11,811 --> 00:29:14,594 Uruguayan rugby team were flown 647 00:29:14,594 --> 00:29:16,137 that ended up stranded in the Andes. 648 00:29:17,457 --> 00:29:19,604 So it's some trepidation. 649 00:29:20,629 --> 00:29:23,423 So on the flight over, 650 00:29:23,423 --> 00:29:26,509 I had a tooth fallout or cap of the tooth fallout, 651 00:29:26,509 --> 00:29:27,636 maybe the altitude. 652 00:29:29,384 --> 00:29:31,850 So when we landed I asked Patricio, 653 00:29:31,850 --> 00:29:33,493 I said, "Is there a dentist 654 00:29:33,493 --> 00:29:36,244 that you recommend around here?" 655 00:29:36,244 --> 00:29:40,444 So, he said, "Sure, we'll go in the morning." 656 00:29:40,444 --> 00:29:42,428 So in the morning we went to this dentist 657 00:29:42,428 --> 00:29:43,570 that he recommended. 658 00:29:44,787 --> 00:29:47,092 And I was sitting in the chair and his cell phone rang... 659 00:29:48,117 --> 00:29:49,804 And he's talking apparently to his wife 660 00:29:49,804 --> 00:29:52,523 and she was saying what was happening on 9/11. 661 00:29:52,523 --> 00:29:53,814 He started telling, and I said... 662 00:29:55,991 --> 00:29:58,124 I jumped out of my chair. 663 00:30:00,388 --> 00:30:02,947 And his wife kept ringing for the next half hour updating, 664 00:30:02,947 --> 00:30:05,189 and I was going nuts not knowing. 665 00:30:05,189 --> 00:30:08,614 It turned out that he and his wife have been scheduled to fly 666 00:30:08,614 --> 00:30:10,554 to New York that evening 667 00:30:10,554 --> 00:30:13,107 and was scheduled to have dinner 668 00:30:13,107 --> 00:30:15,709 in the World Trade Center the restaurant at the top. 669 00:30:16,759 --> 00:30:19,093 And of course, they... But I was going nuts. 670 00:30:19,093 --> 00:30:24,145 So then we were stranded in Chile, in Santiago for the next week, 671 00:30:24,145 --> 00:30:26,351 which is a lovely place to be stranded. 672 00:30:26,351 --> 00:30:28,177 Because their traffic had been suspended. 673 00:30:28,177 --> 00:30:29,241 Suspended. Yes. 674 00:30:29,241 --> 00:30:33,099 And I remember the newspapers made hay out and the fact 675 00:30:33,099 --> 00:30:35,233 that I was there and they called, 676 00:30:35,233 --> 00:30:37,658 they called me "el jefe de Internet"... 677 00:30:38,701 --> 00:30:40,278 A head of the Internet. 678 00:30:40,278 --> 00:30:42,414 I said, "Come on, there's no head of the Internet." 679 00:30:42,414 --> 00:30:44,170 No, they had been in that way. 680 00:30:44,170 --> 00:30:46,246 So that's my most vivid memory. 681 00:30:46,246 --> 00:30:47,469 Okay. 682 00:30:47,469 --> 00:30:49,548 Since you mentioned 9/11, 683 00:30:49,548 --> 00:30:53,535 Becky Burr, who is a current ICANN Board member 684 00:30:53,535 --> 00:30:55,265 said, and you and I talked about this 685 00:30:55,265 --> 00:30:57,464 prior to the cameras rolling. 686 00:30:57,464 --> 00:31:00,458 Becky Burr had said that 9/11 marked a major change 687 00:31:00,458 --> 00:31:04,566 and the relationship of ICANN and the US government. 688 00:31:04,566 --> 00:31:06,075 When we were talking about this earlier, 689 00:31:06,075 --> 00:31:09,406 you said you felt there was almost a bigger change 690 00:31:09,406 --> 00:31:13,392 between administrations, US presidential administrations? 691 00:31:13,392 --> 00:31:15,369 Well, there was change. 692 00:31:15,369 --> 00:31:16,822 But I think the change... 693 00:31:17,933 --> 00:31:19,287 Well, there are probably two changes. 694 00:31:19,287 --> 00:31:22,242 I mean, one was the change working with a different administration 695 00:31:22,242 --> 00:31:24,855 although I number the staff with, it's still the same. 696 00:31:26,859 --> 00:31:29,885 And I mentioned the secretary of commerce meeting, for example... 697 00:31:32,451 --> 00:31:35,052 I don't think that would have gone the same way 698 00:31:35,052 --> 00:31:37,351 with the previous administration. 699 00:31:37,351 --> 00:31:40,844 But maybe the security focus certainly changed. 700 00:31:40,844 --> 00:31:41,999 There was a lot of emphasis 701 00:31:41,999 --> 00:31:44,716 on when you're going to implement DNSSEC 702 00:31:44,716 --> 00:31:49,791 and getting involved with homeland security, 703 00:31:49,791 --> 00:31:51,744 and they're concerned about security, 704 00:31:51,744 --> 00:31:54,803 understandable concern about security. 705 00:31:54,803 --> 00:31:57,063 But I will put the change more 706 00:31:57,063 --> 00:31:59,998 overall I think to the change of administration. 707 00:31:59,998 --> 00:32:01,057 Okay. 708 00:32:01,057 --> 00:32:05,548 Stuart Lynn, ICANN's second CEO from 2001 to 2003, 709 00:32:05,548 --> 00:32:07,143 thank you again for taking the time to talk to us. 710 00:32:07,143 --> 00:32:08,831 My pleasure. Thank you for coming out.