User talk:OrthoArchitectDU

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icons by century

Please STOP adding pictures of mosaics, frescos or manuscripts in the categories like " 10th-century icons‎". Icon almost always is the picture on the wood, nothing more. Any Orthodox Christian image doesn't means "icon". --Shakko (talk) 11:43, 19 July 2013 (UTC)

for it we have category:10th-century mosaics‎, Category:10th-century frescos, Category:10th-century mosaics, Category:10th-century illuminated manuscripts, etc. --Shakko (talk) 11:49, 19 July 2013 (UTC)

Please note that Commons it is the project with its own rules of rubrics and you can't bring in it your own rules. If you will not stop, it can make you problem here.

• • And, as I can see in your edits, you simply don't know how it works here. For example, there is no need to put ALL 269 pictures from Category:Menologion of Basil II in the category you chose - we simply add the necessary category to the whole Category:Menologion of Basil II. So, if we wish to put this book to Category:10th-century illuminated manuscripts, we don't mark every file from Menologion with this category, we mark only the main subcategory "Menologion". And if you'll go to Category:10th-century illuminated manuscripts, you'll see the whole Menologion there as subcategory.
  • As you wish to collect the Orthodox images of different genres and techniques in one place, and there is nothing bad in it, we should find the proper decision according with rules of Wiki Commons. I can suggest you this one tree of cat (13th century as example):

1. Category:13th-century Orthodox art. And in it:
   1. Category:13th-century Orthodox frescos
   2. category:13th-century icons‎
   3. Category:13th-century Orthodox mosaics
   4. Category:13th-century Orthodox illuminated manuscripts etc.

• • And then is no need to add f.e. file:Limniotis Theodoros Agii Anargyroi Kastoria, 13-14th century.JPG to category "13th-century Orthodox frescos", 'cos it is already in cat. "13th-century frescos in Greece", which is in "13th-century Orthodox frescos". Is it clear?
  • Also: no need to add File:Deesis mosaic Hagia Sophia.jpg (for ex.) in "13th-century Orthodox mosaics", 'cos it is(with many other photos) in Category:Deesis mosaic (Hagia Sophia) which is in category:13th-century Byzantine mosaics, which is in "13th-century Orthodox mosaics. Understand? tree of categories.
  • We don't have Category:12th-century icons of Russia (and 10-13th centuries), it is redirect to Category:12th-century icons of Kievan Rus: 'cos Russia didn't exist yet. Don't add 2 cat: "18th-century icons of Russia" and ""18th-century icons", cos 1st is already subcat of 2nd.
• And please note that we can speak about Orthodox church only after 1054, en:East–West Schism. So Rabula Gospels (6th century) isn't Orthodox neither Catholic. We can extract only heresies like en:Arianism in the 1st millennium.
• If you have any questions, ask. Greetings from Russian Orthodox person! --Shakko (talk) 12:51, 21 July 2013 (UTC)

______________

• The problem is that you use the word "icon" as "the sacred image (wide sense)", and here in commons it is used as "the technique, the genre (narrow sense)". You can't just go and modify the system that worked during last 10 years here. In your way all Category:Orthodox art = icons. Your wish only makes confusion and abundance. No need to do it.
• About mosaics like icons. Please note we have Category:Mosaic icons for portable, and Category:Orthodox mosaics for murals. As about problems with non-religious images - see as it is done in Category:18th-century frescos in Russia -> Category:18th-century frescos in Russia (Orthodox)‎ and category:18th-century frescos in Russia (secular)‎. You can do the same with palace floor mosaics.
• I recommend category:Early Christian art for all before 4th century = creation of Byzantine Empire. Then, for Europe - Early Medieval or something like this. Before schism the future 2 styles can be already seen, I agree with you. But it was more the geographic parameter yet.
• Ravenna isn't good example - half of its mosaics aren't Catholic or Orthodox - see en:Arian Baptistry e.g.
• The problem with Byzantine influence in western art is solved like this - category:Early Italian paintings of Virgin Mary‎ who looks exactly like icons is both in cat category:Marian icons, Gothic paintings of Virgin Mary, Paintings of Virgin Mary in Italy.
• In Category:Christian catacombs maybe it makes sense to create Category:frescos of christian catacombs and in it Category:1st century frescos of christian catacombs, Category:2nd century frescos of christian catacombs...? --Shakko (talk) 20:36, 21 July 2013 (UTC)
  • by the way, the good word "icon" here is already occupied by the nerds with their Category:Icons (Address book icons‎, Arrow icons‎...) and pixel drawings inside. So we should avoid the litter of search engine with MORE icons... Maybe we will talk only here, on this 1 page? it is more comfortable. --Shakko (talk) 21:11, 21 July 2013 (UTC)

---

No problem, I'm copying a couple of my recent comments from your talk page to this one:

How about, for all Christian art, use Category:Christian art

Then, from 1st to 3rd Century (33-300 CE), we have everything in the Paleo-Christian category here: Category:Paleochristian art

Then, for everything from the 4th Century on (301 CE-Present), we add two more categories, Category:Eastern Christian art and Category: Western Christian art.

Within these, have Catholic art & Orthodox art. Within those sections, have a note linking to the other category, clarifying that art from the other tradition prior to 1054/1204 may also be claimed by both groups.

However, allow pre-11th Century Orthodox and Catholic art in those sections, as long as they are respective to their jurisdiction at the time, so pre-schism Orthodox art has to be of the Four Eastern Pentarchs. This will allow work such as Hagia Sophia to be included in the Orthodox section.

Just as a last, minor note, as far as I know from my research, Ravenna was mostly orthodox, it was just the Arian Baptistery and Arian Cathedral (currently Spirito Santo) that were Arian, the other churches, Galla Placidia, San Vitale, San Giovanni Battista, Sant'Apollinare Nuovo, Sant'Apollinare in Classe, San Francesco, San Giovanni Evangelista etc... were all orthodox. --OrthoArchitectDU (talk) 21:17, 21 July 2013 (UTC)

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Why don't we change "icons" to "iconography" in order to differentiate it from "icons" as used in modern terminology? --OrthoArchitectDU (talk) 21:24, 21 July 2013 (UTC)

---

Here is a better summary of what I"m proposing:

1. Category:Christian art
   1. Category:Paleochristian art (33-313 CE)
   2. Category: Western Christian art (313-Today)
      1. Category: Roman Catholic art
      2. Category: Protestant art
   3. Category: Eastern Christian art (313-Today)
      1. Category: Eastern Orthodox art
         1. Category: Eastern Orthodox art by century
            1. Category 4th-century Eastern Orthodox art
            2. Category 5th-century Eastern Orthodox art
            3. Category 6th-century Eastern Orthodox art
            4. Category 7th-century Eastern Orthodox art
            5. Category 8th-century Eastern Orthodox art
            6. Category 9th-century Eastern Orthodox art
            7. Category 10th-century Eastern Orthodox art
            8. Category 11th-century Eastern Orthodox art
               1. Category 11th-century Eastern Orthodox iconography
               2. Category 11th-century Eastern Orthodox mosaics
            9. Category 12th-century Eastern Orthodox art
            10. Category 13th-century Eastern Orthodox art
            11. Category 14th-century Eastern Orthodox art
            12. Category 15th-century Eastern Orthodox art
            13. Category 16th-century Eastern Orthodox art
            14. Category 17th-century Eastern Orthodox art
            15. Category 18th-century Eastern Orthodox art
            16. Category 19th-century Eastern Orthodox art
            17. Category 20th-century Eastern Orthodox art
            18. Category 21st-century Eastern Orthodox art
         2. Category: Eastern Orthodox iconography
            1. Category: Eastern Orthodox iconography by century
         3. Category: Eastern Orthodox architecture
            1. Category: Eastern Orthodox architecture by century
         4. Category: Eastern Orthodox frescoes
            1. Category: Eastern Orthodox frescoes by century
         5. Category: Eastern Orthodox mosaics
            1. Category: Eastern Orthodox mosaics by century
         6. Category: Eastern Orthodox sculpture
      2. Category: Oriental Orthodox art

In each section, have a short explanation/summary. So in the "Paleochristian" category, have a short explanation that the category is for all Christian art from 33 CE to 313 CE. Then for "Western Christian" category, explain that the category is for all Western Christian art from 313 CE to Present. Same for the "Eastern Christian" category. Within the "Roman Catholic" art category, clarify that Eastern Art prior to the period between 1054 & 1204 can also be claimed by the Roman Catholic. In the "Eastern Orthodox" art category, clarify that Western art prior to the period between 1054 & 1204 can also be claimed by the Eastern Orthodox.

--OrthoArchitectDU (talk) 21:34, 21 July 2013 (UTC)

I think it looks good. But maybe shorter - not "Eastern Orthodox" but simply Orthodox? The Oriental Orthodox art is too small exception for heap up the abundance. "Paleochristian" looks fine for first centuries, the secret cult; but don't you think about "Early Christian" for 2/3-6 centuries, as Britannica says[1]?

I don't catch "iconography" in your suggestion. "Icons" don't = "iconography". Like Britannica says, it is "the science of identification, description, classification, and interpretation of symbols, themes, and subject matter in the visual arts"[2]. So, "iconography of Archangel Michael" don't means "all the Orthodox images of A.M.", it means - "all the types of depiction of A.M." (as horseman, in miracle and even Catholic with Jeanne d'Arc and in Last Judgement with scales). Can be "Iconography of the Buddha" (Victoria and Albert Museum) and "Iconography of Lenin"[3]. Wrong to say "11th-century iconography of smth" as you wish - in will mean only types, variations of images created only in 11th century. But for Christian figures iconography is transparent, it remains the same during all the centuries. It will be same for Virgin Mary in 14 and 19th century. I can remember the short living Christian iconographies, like Category:Paternity icon (Trinity) which was prohibited in 17th century, or Category:Theotokos Derzhavnaya created shorly before 1917 Revolution. But is really hard to remember many. Only for such iconographies (types) is right to give the date.

I understand that you wants to group visual images. But we should think more. Maybe Category:Orthodox frescos of Madonna and Child -> Category:Orthodox depictions of Madonna and Child / images -> Category:Orthodox depictions by subject? category:Icons of the nativity of Jesus Christ -> Category:Orthodox depictions of Nativity of Jesus Christ <- Category:Orthodox frescos of Nativity of Jesus Christ. --Shakko (talk) 07:02, 22 July 2013 (UTC)

---

So let me see if I can fix it, if I understand correctly:

1. Category:Christian art
   1. Category:Early Christian art (33-313 CE)
   2. Category: Western Christian art (313-Today)
      1. Category: Roman Catholic art
      2. Category: Protestant art
   3. Category: Eastern Christian art (313-Today)
      1. Category: Orthodox art
         1. Category: Orthodox art by century
            1. Category 4th-century Orthodox art
            2. Category 5th-century Orthodox art
            3. Category 6th-century Orthodox art
            4. Category 7th-century Orthodox art
            5. Category 8th-century Orthodox art
            6. Category 9th-century Orthodox art
            7. Category 10th-century Orthodox art
            8. Category 11th-century Orthodox art
               1. Category 11th-century Orthodox icons
               2. Category 11th-century Orthodox mosaics
            9. Category 12th-century Orthodox art
            10. Category 13th-century Orthodox art
            11. Category 14th-century Orthodox art
            12. Category 15th-century Orthodox art
            13. Category 16th-century Orthodox art
            14. Category 17th-century Orthodox art
            15. Category 18th-century Orthodox art
            16. Category 19th-century Orthodox art
            17. Category 20th-century Orthodox art
            18. Category 21st-century Orthodox art
         2. Category: Orthodox icons
            1. Category: Orthodox icons by century
         3. Category: Orthodox architecture
            1. Category: Orthodox architecture by century
         4. Category: Orthodox frescoes
            1. Category: Orthodox frescoes by century
         5. Category: Orthodox mosaics
            1. Category: Orthodox mosaics by century
         6. Category: Orthodox sculpture

As you say, icons/iconography can be confusing for people. That's why I suggest having "Orthodox icons" be the title of the categories, that way we can keep just religious iconography of the Orthodox Churches in those categories.

As for giving the date, it is important, as Orthodox icons aren't the same through the centuries, it develops and changes. If you look at early Orthodox icons of Christ (prior to 313 CE), Christ has short hair and no beard. Then, after 313, Christ has long hair and a beard. Or if you look at the style, it also changes. To see what I'm saying, look at depictions of Jesus in Orthodox icons through the years:

• Christ healing the Paralytic (ca. 235 CE)
• Christ, the Good Shepherd (ca. 250 CE)
• Christ, with Ss. Peter & Paul (ca. 300-400 CE)
• Christ with a beard (ca. 350-400 CE)
• Pantocrator Icon from Sinai (ca. 500-600 CE)
• Pantocrator icon from Menologion of Basil II (ca. 986 CE)
• Pantocrator Icon from Daphni (ca. 1090-1100 CE)
• Pantocrator Icon from Hagia Sophia (ca. 1261 CE)
• Serbian version, icon made without hands (ca. 1200-1400 CE)
• Christ, by Andrei Rublev (ca. 1410 CE)

Iconography changes, like architecture and our liturgy. For example, our Liturgy isn't the same as it was 1700 years ago, it's changed a lot since St. John Chrysostom.

The difference in icons is why we know that the icon "Trojerucica" wasn't painted by St. John of Damascus, because it's style shows it was painted in the 14th Century, not the 7th Century.

Also like architecture, it's important to clarify when icons were painted. Like for example, Hagia Sophia (6th Century) is not like the Lateran Basilica in Rome (4th Century), and that the Saviour in Chora Church in Istanbul (11th Century) is not like Gracanica in Serbia/Kosovo (14th Century).

It is important to distinguish icons based on date, and to categorize them according to date.

--OrthoArchitectDU (talk) 17:14, 22 July 2013 (UTC)