User talk:Pkatfin

Welcome to Wikimedia Commons, Pkatfin!

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-- Wikimedia Commons Welcome (talk) 13:07, 17 August 2013 (UTC)

Photos

It might be good for You to know that a photo You inserted into finnish Ahaltekhevonen is not presenting Akhal-Tekes. Also, if You had asked the permission from the photographer, You would have known it.

Even more, it might be worthwhile to always contact the photographer, if not otherwise, but for the sake of courtesy, about such public usage of photos. In finnish pages I was told that there are rights to use this photo, and so on.

It is not so simple, I have been talking with the photographer privately, and (in breed's international association's discussion) here is what You also might need to know:

Kerri-Jo Stewart: no, photos appearing anywhere need permission of the image taker who owns the copyright. But there are lots of great photos of Akhal-Tekes racing in Russia that would be more appropriate for a description of the breed. These guys should go under the Turkmen horses really.

Ulrike Ruppelt: The moment you upload a picture to Wikipedia Commons you agree to the following: Must be freely licensed or public domain[edit] Wikimedia Commons accepts only free content, in other words files that are either freely licensed or which are in the public domain. A file is considered public domain if either all copyright has expired or if the copyright owner(s) has voluntarily placed the content of the file into the public domain by irrevocably renouncing all copyright. A file which is ineligible for copyright protection is also considered public domain. Any file hosted here must normally be freely licensed or public domain according to both the law of the United States and according to the law of the source country, if different: see Commons:Licensing.

Kerri-Jo Stewart: that won't stand up in court. The image owner owns the copyright and it doesn't expire. They have never asked me for permission to use any of my photos so I'm sure that there are lots of photos on there that are not knowingly permitted by the image owner.

Kerri-Jo Stewart: that may have been put up last year as the US did not automatically grant copyright to the image owner previously, but it does now. And it's stood up in court as you can see from Facebooks retraction of its previous policies.

And in private discussion the photographer confirmed those court cases.

My point 1) it is always not to press the free usage of photos too far when it is not necessary, as then also it will be more likely that these issues have to be dealt otherwise some day = in court, or by strickening the copyrights in public services as now is happening = also old photos are under copyright, no matter what the internet service provider claims. (It is just if the photographer is willing to go to the court. If the internet service provider was only providing an option which was not legal, it is not so much photographer's problem, as it is end-user's and internet service provider's. And if the end users start claiming the internet service provider, I am pretty certain they will change their politics asap there to make certain it is the end-user who will get charges.)

2) if You had been polite, the photographer could have explained You why these horses are NOT akhal-tekes, and I would not have used Your photo as one example of the false information that is being spread of the breed. Thank You, it is one good example. Actually, I am so used to this sort of action, that first I just corrected the explanation for the photo, and only in the end realized that I also have got a suitable photo for that one subsection i was writing.

10:01, 16 August 2013 (UTC) Pkatfin (talk) (<-Corrected signature)

No impoliteness was intended, I apologize if that was the case. Could you link me to the photo in question? It is very possible the upload was through the use of automatic tools on behalf of someone else as a technical assistance. I can perhaps reach that person for you to sort out the problem. -- とある白い猫 ^ちぃ？ 18:42, 16 August 2013 (UTC)

Thank You for the quick reply!! I just noticed there is a huge error as all the Ahal Velayat Hippodrome - Flickr - Kerri-Jo photos are inserted as photos of Akhal-Tekes!! As Kerri-Jo replied correctly, these are photos of turkmen horses, horses bred by turkmen people. Akhal-Tekes are a closed studbook, that is, only horses which are bred from horses of that studbook are accepted. It accepts no crossings to other breeds.

Are You familiar with the Akhal-Teke breed?

Not even all "Akhal-Teke people" are following the Turkmenistan's situation that close as the breed is distributed all around the globe, all app. 3 500 horses, so You may understand the resources are not too big, and there are many other things to consider but the "overall situation" of the breed. Like for example the changing standards for recognition of individual horses, equine organizations, and breeds (like horse passports, UELN, FEI recognition to establish a position in equestrian sport etc). Or even creating an association like here in Finland with our app. 10 Akhal-Teke horses...

So, even though almost half of the breed is being left outside the breed (app. 3 000 horses in Turkmenistan), it is merely becoming a fact, unless they change their politics concerning dna- and blood testing the origin of horses for registering them into the studbook.

It does not look very good tough. This current decade Turkmenistan has been trying to convince the AT (Akhal-Teke) people of the world of the necessity of them being in charge of the studbook. (For example by offering representatives of AT organizations free travel to celebrate AT horses in Turmenistan.) At the same time there are very controversial views within Turkmenistan about cross-breeding Akhal-Tekes to other breeds, especially to english thoroughbred as racing tradition is very strong and appreciated in Turkmenistan. The "quickest way" to enhance the speed of ATs (Akhal-Tekes) is to cross-breed ATs to english thoroughbreds (= XX, an acronym). BUT then the resulting descendents may be the winners of the (short distance) race, but NOT Akhal-Tekes! (As it is a closed studbook.)

So, I suppose You see the problem, which has resulted since Turkmenistan has been outside studbook since the end of 1990ies... It is no wonder many breeders do not want ANY dna/blood testing to proove what they have done. Some others might want to save the breed, but if they are not influential enough...

There certainly are still "true" Akhal-Teke horses left in Turkmenistan, as many of the oldest horses may have been registered into the studbook in early 1990ies. But if You look at those racing horses, they often are 2-4yrs old, and since the temptation to cross XX blood especially into racing horses is huge... The probability to see outside "breed show" which represents other than "old symbols of the nation" like Yanardag, ... Well, it is most probable that these horses might not be able EVER to get AT studbook registration - even if their owners were able/willing to go through the normal required procedures.

So, first of all it is a COMMON FACT that these younger horses are NOT registered into AT studbook. NOR they might be able to acccess registration. THEREFORE they DEFINATELY are NOT ATs. I am sorry to use the capitalization, but I really want to be clear that this is a present fact. A huge loss for the AT breed, too. :-( As the time goes by, it will become at some point impossible to insert horses into the studbook, as the origin needs to be proven at each generation. As generations pass... well, :-(

You do not have to take my word for this.

The AT studbook's web pages started addressing the problem in the end of 1990ies. Still 1995 Turkmenistan was part in "world organization" for ATs: <http://www.maakcenter.org/ENG/maak.html>, but then the problems begun = the TM (Turkmenistan) horses were not being registered into the studbook: <http://www.maakcenter.org/ENG/announce.html>

If You take a look at Turkmen Embassy's web pages, what they tell about their national breed, You will notice what is the point of view of at least enough many turkmens to present such claims in public official pages... <http://turkmenistanembassy.org/the-akhalteke-horse-of-turkmenistan/> Namely l'Arc de Triomple winner is a horse of another closed studbook, english thoroughbred studbook. So there is NO way it could ever be regarded as an AT. Not by neither of studbooks... (That is the "hilarious part", it is a true and very bad "double-error". :-))

And now recently, it seems that Turkmenistan is "giving up" on the AT studbook as they (in the country's official web pages) have started calling their breed "turkmen horses" instead of organizing the "day of the AT horse"!! (<http://ahalteke.gov.tm/index.php/news/89-ashgabad-is-inviting-to-visit-the-international-equestrian-exhibition>) All this after several the "publicity campaigns"... It still show at their web page, they call the breed ATs. <http://ahalteke.gov.tm/index.php>

Well, if You think of the breeding centuries back, it was not so "official" what is a "turkmen horse", so in a way this is a correct name for their horses. (At least more correct than AT!)

There are still "original turkmen horses" being bred in surrounding countries like Iran presently. If You are interested, You might want to get to know the work of Louisa Firouz, and travellers like Laurence Bougault - and even Kerri-Jo Stewart herself! (Whose work You already know. :-)) I mean, if You do not speak persian language (as I do not), since there is more and more in the internet at least from the Iranian breeding in persian language. (Too lazy to attach web pages, sorry...) :: It is not just Iran where there is still "original breeding left". But I am afraid for example in Afganistan they have got bigger problems than announcing their horse breeding to the world via internet, or by any other means. I am glad for example Laurence is not going there at least not yet, as it is not the safest corner...

But personally, while talking about present horse breeding in Turkmenistan, I would myself favour something more illustrating like modern turkmen horse, or modern turkmenian turkmen horse. It would be easier to specify that it is a horse with strong influence by AT breed, but most probably fairly heavily (at least in some cases) crossbred into XX. Why not TM ATs? Well, as they have pointed out in several cases, breed got it's name from Russians almost 150 yrs ago, and it was a turkmen horse before that. And Russia was the one who closed the studbook to start with. And ceased the experiments with crossing ATs to XX. Ironically, thanks to Turkmenian efforts in 1935...

But this is just my opinion, You are free to decide something else, as this needs to be discussed at some point. At least now it seems TM itself has chosen "turkmen horse", so may it be?

So - why to "burden You with all this information"?

I have got a request. As I only have been doing wiki-editing for 1 wk. And I started as a completely ignorant dummy, so my "skills" are still practically non-existing.

Do You think You could "clean out" cross-bred horses out of "Akhal-Teke" folder??? Anyway, that is the one term Akhal-Teke which is really very well defined to concern only horses which are registered to AT studbook, or their (not yet registered, but registable AT) descendents.

Or tell me how it is done, please? (I might not have time, and I might cause a "mess", but I might give it a try anyway...)

There are already enough weird claims of ATs circling around the internet, and there is no reason to confuse the situation any more with inserting non-AT-horses into AT photo folder.

I am afraid that there are also many other but turkmenian cross-bred horses in this AT folder, but I have not checked yet. At least there are also many familiar "true" AT horses. (It is such a "small world" this AT world, because of fairly small number of horses, breeders and owners involved...)

Such a long message... Anyway, I thought I better let You know!

Pkatfin (talk) 13:08, 17 August 2013 (UTC)

Sample image: Ahal Velayat Hippodrome - Flickr - Kerri-Jo (136).jpg

Hi, again welcome to commons. The site may appear overwhelmingly complicated but this is something people get used to. I'd normally encourage people to be bold and make edits but I want to make sure I understand your request clearly. I am not an expert on horse breeding so I need to ask a few questions on that as well to be able to better guide you. I'll number these for your convenience.

1. Which images are we talking about? Can you give me a few examples? I have linked to one of the photos by Kerri-Jo at Ahal Velayat Hippodrome. Is this one of the files you see a problem with?
2. Commons does not have a "Akhal-Teke" folder or any folder for that matter. We sort images in Galleries and Categories. I see a Akhal-Teke gallery and a Category:Akhal-Teke and am guessing you feel some of the files under Category:Akhal-Teke are categorized incorrectly. What name would you propose they should be under? "Turkmen horses"?
3. Can you tell (just by looking at a photo) if a horse is an Akhal-Teke breed or not? Are the closed studbooks publicly available? If so would we be able to use it to determine if our images cover said specific breed.

-- とある白い猫 ^ちぃ？ 20:51, 17 August 2013 (UTC)

Thank You for Your reply! And for the welcoming!!!

Actually practically whole folder of photos of Kerri-Jo at Ahal Velayat Hippodrome are not valid Akhal-Tekes. (I should re-check, but I think there was not a photo of Yanardag, or some older horses, whose origin is well know. As they were bred around/before that time when Turkmenistan still co-operated with VNIIK.)

I saw those racing photos (which are NOT representing Akhal-Tekes) when I searched Commons for "Akhal-Teke". But now I realize that 1) since You inserted only that one photo to a finnish wikipedia page 2) I did NOT check who had inserted all those photos into Commons => a scary thought: I might be doing a very unpolite act by blaming a completely innocent other person.. Sorry!!!!! You see I am very green with commons, if a bit less with ATs.

Thanks for asking! Unfortunately You cannot determine an Akhal-Teke by it's outlook only (unless You recognize a familiar horse, which often is a case within this breed though).

There is not "guaranteed photo archive" available - by studbook or so. There are some photos of old events, in <http://www.maakcenter.org/>, and there are also many other AT shows/happenings which have been photographed. But none in recent Turkmenistan... (I know, it is awful situation for an "outsider".)

Even though the Akhal-Teke studbook has photo-archives of most registered horses, those archives are not public. In fact, I think they are still mostly under digitalization (scanning etc) as most of the data is fairly old (real photographs).

If You know the name, and the parentage of a horse, and You know russian transliteration in some cases to be sure - this link should be fairly ok to check as it should be pretty consistent with VNIIK AT studbook information (choose: ахалтекинская for the breed - or choose language to be english): http://109.94.178.63/horses/horses.php

The trouble is - even that one is not 100% correct - if there is a "falsified Akhal-Teke"!

We for example in Finland had one mare, with a pedigree and outlooks which were an exact duplicate of another Akhal-Teke mare in Germany.

Well - there was one simple solution to this "scandal".

The horse in Finland had been sold to an owner who did not know the breed, and the mare's papers were only photocopies.

The german mare was owned by a biggish Akhal-Teke breeder who registers her horses to the studbook.

So, one does not need to be an Einstein to figure out which mare was most probably "the only true" Akhal-Teke...

Of course, it did not help that Finnish Organization for Equine Registration had registered this finnish "claimed-Akhal-Teke" as an Akhal-Teke. BUT Finnish Organization is NOT a studbook organization. So, it is NOT able to grant a studbook status to an Akhal-Teke. It was just a simple error from them, they took those "papers" for granted. (It is not the first time when they received photocopies in that era.)

They have done bigger mistakes than this related to this breed.

At least all of the parents of this one mare were "claimed to be Akhal-Tekes".

Finnish Horse registration officials are MUCH more careful these days, and I suppose they will not to repeat those mistakes any more. Hopefully!

In short, no harm done, not a biggie - _BUT_ - the story continues...

The photos of that "false AT mare" are still in the biggest public equine pedigree & photo service in Finland - under the breed name of Akhal-Teke...

At least it was a pretty horse which is not the case always... Of course it's official registration would not be changed post mortem, the mare has by deceased, and the owner does not want to "go back and search the case". But - the information reminds...

Of course it is not the ignorant owner, nor officials to blame, as it was pretty much the way things worked out in those days.

The one to blame is the person who sold the "false mare" with photocopies, in an auction, decades ago.

But why to bother any more... (Anyway - there were bigger errors, and this mare was not bad-looking.)

And, there are so many "present errors" - like this one of Ahal Velayat Hippodrome race.

Sorry for this long explanation, but You must understand that for AT people internet has been a blessing! In a way. It helps us to track down "true ATs", and to get to know how to most easily check their origin etc. Of course UELN, dna tests, microchips, equine passports etc help.

Also, we kind of know "each other" - if not each one, then at least there are not too "long chains" between people. So, if anyone of us would start to claim some horse is an AT, and it would be let's say a crossbred horse, then we would probably (even very soon) notice it, and it would be pointed out.

But - there is so much false information circling about the breed _outside the breed_ that, I suppose we pretty much have "lifted our hands up", and surrended. And only now, people have started to edit more for example wikipedia pages...

But, again I am burdening You with too much information.

I should have written more briefly: the best way to recognize, if a horse is an AT, is it is bred by a well-known AT breeder who co-operates with other ones, and breeds VNIIK registered horses - or a horse is a VNIIK registered Akhal-Teke.

Other than that - it may be, or may not...

So, pretty much any "single photo" should be checked, unless it is a "group gathering of VNIIK registered horses". (Which sometimes has got classes for cross-bred, or even show program with also other breed horses. So we are back to square one... :-) )

Thanks for the patience! And great thanks to You in advance if You "look a bit" whether AT photos really seem to be what they are claimed to be...

Pkatfin (talk) 22:44, 17 August 2013 (UTC)

It is quite alright, I am here to help. This is a community driven community and you often have multiple people working towards a specific task. Different people are passionate about different aspects.

The story you mentioned is exactly why we should be just as interested in fake Akhal-Tekes horses. For example someone writing an article on the scandal probably wants the photo. We can categorize unofficial horses so that someone else can verify their authenticity. The closed studbook for Akhal-Tekes would be a sub-category documenting the official Akhal-Tekes horses.

So what I propose is replacing Category:Akhal-Teke with Category:Turkmen horses and then apply Category:Akhal-Teke to those that are confirmed to be officially from the special breed. I can do that for you with a bot. A bot is an automated script that makes repetitive edits. I also think we should mark fake Akhal-Teke breed horses with a category such has "half breed Akhal-Tekes" or some other more fitting name.

Afterwards we should try to populate Category:Akhal-Teke which as you said is not an easy task but this is exactly why commons exists. :) One step at a time though.

-- とある白い猫 ^ちぃ？ 01:02, 18 August 2013 (UTC)

I have a comment at ちぃ？, just FYI. Montanabw (talk) 23:45, 21 August 2013 (UTC)

Sorry for the delay. Since I last wrote, Kerri-Jo told that she actually has removed her Flickr account months ago. As I was referred to contact You by finnish wiki editors, I mentioned these news also to finnish wiki editors. One of them, "pitke" told me that it did not make any difference, the copyrights of those photos were ok, and even allowed commercial usage!

Well - I suppose Kerri-Jo won't regret her decision to leave Flickr... But of course, it will mean less photos to share in the future. Too bad!

Thank You for explaning what the system is, I am so "dummy" that I even did not know about "classification". I shared this information with those who are asking/providing photos of Akhal-Tekes within Akhal-Teke community. So, we would know to "label" our photos correctly.

About Your generous offer, that would be VERY kind of You thank You!! I hope it is still valid?

Actually, it is almost funny. I have got a very recent example how bad the common knowleadge of this rare breed is.

A photo of a fairly average, and not very typey but studbook registered Akhal-Teke gelding Ikon (http://www.akhaltekehorse.org/careers-Ikon.html, http://www.akhaltekehorse.org/gallery9.htm) was inserted into Commons http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Ikon-_Golden_Akhal_Teke-Stallion.jpgwas

-> This photo was immediately used to commercialize horses of present Turkmenistan... :-D

Here is HRTV's commercial in FB https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10151823970265170&set=a.222777365169.181054.76866300169&type=1&theater

The program itself is obviously of modern Turkmenistan: http://www.hrtv.com/videos/?VideoCategoryId=4&VideoId=EwZ/trEx/ztwZ0foQdDU7nsTuy7lgRhTO1spJxb2eFg= which refuses to register it's horses into AT studbook...

And Commons was loaded with (Kerri-Jo's) recent photos of Turkmen horses - photographed right in the most famous places of Turkmenistan! :-D

So, sorry to repeat - but if Your offer is still on - yes, please, it would be great if You were able to help!!

BTW I did not know it was possible to send private messages here! :-) Montanabw - You have actively edited Akhal-Teke wiki-page, right?

I have completely stayed away from the english version, but just looked at it, and it's editing history for "just checking".

Anyway, there are not so many finnish speaking Akhal-Teke hobbyists, and I seem not to have enough time for everything - so I'll HAVE TO focuse on something.

I keep an eye on english version not to forget anything essential from the finnish one. But rather - I think the english version could focuse better - it misses lot's of essential information while going through issues which would better be discussed in an article of Turkmen horses and so on.

Also, frustratingly much talk of strange objectives. (That is, if a dog breed is supposed to have a curly tail by breed defination, it should NOT be represented with a photo of a dog with straight tail - or with a photo of a dog of another breed, etc. Why to even bother to discuss about it...) I have got my share of that in finnish pages, so ...

Anyway, the Akhal-Teke breed is defined by it's closed studbook, so the emphasis is a bit weird at times - like focuse on 12th-13th century - as it should be rather discussed in turkmen horse article like I said.

Or why detailed discussion of insignificant effect of those single thoroughbreds in early studbook's history - including their names - when it is not even mentioned that hundreds of horses have been removed from the studbook afterwards to make certain that thoroughbred influence cannot be considered significant within Akhal-Teke breed. And practically nothing is mentioned of the remarkable _Akhal-Teke_ horses in Akhal-Teke breeding...

Anyway, AT breeding is not about thoroughbred breeding, so why to give that impression. I have not found dna research to support significant thoroughbred influence in ATs. Rather - regarding the results thoroughbred influence in ATs is not the issue, but instead, the origin of throughbreds seem to support the idea of it's maternal lines being mostly "local", but oriental horses including turkmen horse (thus relation to Akhal-Tekes) have affected paternal lines.

Sorry, may I just use the opportunity to say that there actually are quite much dna studies of Akhal-Tekes as of course an ancient breed interests researchers in many ways. For example in fairly early stages of these studies Gus Cothran sampled lot's of Akhal-Tekes, and regarding to their methods, and with whom he has co-operated, I am believing they sampled Akhal-Tekes. I mean - the obscure understanding of a breed is not solely the nuisance for Akhal-Tekes. For example I came across one research of lipizzan horse's dna features, which never "got to the point", instead, it concluded that a big part of the horses in that study were actually not lipizzans at all...

Well, anyway - if You are interested, why not to start with these fairly recent studies of the diversity, and origin of domesticated horses which do couple Akhal-Tekes mostly with the other oriental ancient breeds like caspians, and arabians.

But while talking about origin of _any_ breed, I would emphasize dna research is still a fairly new science with it's methods advancing, and not very detailed commonly accepted "general knowledge" of so-far-achieved-results. So, better to be a bit cautious, and not to be too carried away too easily. In short, one should avoid too final conclusions, it is rather in a "pointing out to some direction" phase still.

Anyway, there are lot's of references, that's why I link them, too. Something to start with.

http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0054997

http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0015311

About the geographic location of the origin of this particular breed, Caucasia&(mostly Middle-)Asia is good enough defination for me. It is the best way to drive oneself grazy if one tries to stay in control of all the over-lapping borderlines of all the different cultures ruling over those areas over last decades, hundreds, and thousands of years. Especially if one adds a perspective of what were the cultural and economical relations at their time (from an appreciation to buying or even taking over another culture with it's goods - like horses).

Well, if You have got excessively too much time, that is what I recommend You to focuse on...

The bonus is that it will at least make it more interesting to read about the dna research, as it gives more background what the "expected" relations between different breeds could be.

Talking about research, there are some research studies of performance capacity of Akhal-Tekes, too. My horse's dam is one of the horses in these studies, so I was personally interested of these publications (here is one example): http://journals.cambridge.org/action/displayAbstract?fromPage=online&aid=8247663

Sorry for this side-track, but I guess if the other one "goes secretive", the other one can afford talking too much?

Anyway, even though it might seem an off-track, it is kind of related _exactly_ why Akhal-Tekes can be considered as a closed studbook of an older breed, and why it is important to distinguish Akhal-Teke studbook horses, and "others".

Pkatfin (talk) 13:16, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

PItke is one of the most experienced horse editors here and can explain how things work. Montanabw (talk) 20:22, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

Yes, it is pitke who confirmed the "all rights involved" status of Kerri-Jo's photos. As I know the photographer (Kerri-Jo Stewart), and have been in contact with her, I wanted to check the thing for her. pitke sure seems very experienced in wiki-editing, and interested in horses. One more fact to confirm it is that I have been in wiki for 2wks, and been in contact with her several times but solely regarding to Akhal-Tekes, so I guess she is at least slightly interested in the beed. pitke stated that she has not seen an Akhal-Teke IRL, so that is why I have invited her to meet these horses, although there are not many, only almost 10 in Finland. Pkatfin (talk) 14:54, 24 August 2013 (UTC)

AT vs not-exactly-AT photos

Pkatfin raises a valid point: TL;DR version is that Turkmenistan has given up registering their AT-descended horses with the AT studbook and is known to have been using other breeds such as TB for their racing lines (if not more), which is not permitted by the AT studbook. I'll go separate the Ahal Velayat etc. pictures into Category:Modern Turkmen Horse (to make sure these horses aren't confused with the historical Turkmen breed -- their being the same breed is a hot debate is it not?) which can in turn be made into a subcategory of AT with explanations of the breed purity thing.

As for individuals alleged to be of a certain breed, we usually believe what the owner/uploader says unless there's good reason not to. We can just dump such cases under Category:Mixed breed horses until there are enough part-bred AT photos to warrant a specific category. --Pitke (talk) 07:31, 31 August 2013 (UTC)