Category talk:Food companies of Chaoshan

Incorrect category for most of the images

It seems as if Chiuchow (=Cantonese word; in Mandarin called Chaosan; in the local language itself called Teochew; see w:Teochew cuisine) restaurants and eateries are now being classified under "Food companies" of Chaosan. Perhaps a separate category should be made called Chaosanese restaurants although Teochew restaurants seems to be more appropriate as the latter is a more notable international name for them. A google search for "Teochew restaurant" gives 35.900 hits whereas "Chaosan restaurant" or "Chaosanese restaurant" give no hits at all. - Takeaway (talk) 11:45, 18 August 2010 (UTC)

Agreed, but we have the same problem as with the parent Category:Chinese restaurants and Category:restaurants in China. I know that Category:Teochew restaurants is (probably the) most widely used. (as novice there, it took me some time to find the Teochew - Chaosan - Chiuchow - Chaozhou relations). --Foroa (talk) 12:05, 18 August 2010 (UTC)

I think the main divide in "Category:Chinese restaurants" would be first to subcategorise them in "Chinese restaurants in China" (and subcategorise that by Chinese province, etc.) and "Chinese restaurants abroad" (which then also is subcategorised in to the different countries, etc.). Additionally, the Chinese restaurant should also be categorised, if applicable, by the regional cuisine that it makes, for instance "Category:Teochew-style restaurants" or "Category:Cantonese-style restaurants". As for Category:Carrianna (Chiu Chow) Restaurant, it can be categorised under (Teochew restaurants are very popular in Hong Kong). This category can again be categorised under Category:Restaurants in Hong Kong + Category:Teochew-style restaurants. I'm not really happy with the "...-style" affix but it seems the best possible solution. As many restaurants, especially outside of China, make generic, multi-regional Chinese food, perhaps these should be categorised under "Category:General Chinese-style restaurants"? Or instead of, for instance, "Category:Teochew-style restaurants" one could use "Category:Teochew cuisine restaurants"? - Takeaway (talk) 13:11, 18 August 2010 (UTC)

I like the French, chinese, "Teochew cuisine restaurants" naming style; it corresponds to what is often advertised I think.

We can take as assumption that by default, all restaurants in China offer Chinese cuisine, restaurants in France, French cuisine ..., unless they are attached to another "cuisine style" category. I doubt that we should make a matrix of all possible restaurant countries with all possible cuisine styles. At least, not to start with. It is not the role of Commons to replace the guide Michelin.

So, by default, all "Restaurants in China" structure can remain as is. "Chinese restaurants" should be renamed to "Chinese style restaurants" (which should avoid confusion), and contain the regional sub-styles, such as "Teochew cuisine restaurants", ... and contain basicaly the chinese style restaurants that are not in China. OK ? --Foroa (talk) 17:43, 18 August 2010 (UTC)

I wish it were so simple but unfortunately it isn't. As Teochew cuisine is seen as a speciality cuisine in Hong Kong (where Cantonese cuisine is the norm), I think it will really need a minimum of two defining categories, e.g. Category:Chinese restaurants in Hong Kong + Category:Teochew cuisine restaurants. Just like a Sichuan speciality restaurant in Hong Kong would need both Category:Chinese restaurants in Hong Kong + Category:Sichuan cuisine restaurant. China is so big, just having one category for all the different cooking styles in China would be like having only one category for all European cuisines: Category:European style restaurants! I can already hear French and Italian people shouting in protest if that would happen here on wikimedia! ;-) We will also still need the non-style Category:Restaurants in China as this would also be fit for a, for instance, French restaurant in Shanghai (in the subcategory Category:Foreign restaurants in Shanghai) and with of course the next defining category being Category:French restaurants abroad or something like that. Regards, - Takeaway (talk) 20:30, 18 August 2010 (UTC)

I think that you are carried away by your enthousiasme and knowledge about the cuisines. Commons has to organise categories in a rather static, geographic way and historical way. As stated, we are not a guide Michelin that has to detail all the chefs, the menus, number of stars, vegetarian or normal, ... That type of information is too dynamic and belongs to the wikipediae. Moreover, what to do with a restaurant that changes 5 times from chef and cuisine style? In that respect, I think that we better use "category:Chinese style restaurants" as it is more open and points, like architectures, more to the look than to the kitchen. Simularly, we cannot link each building to the company that is renting it for the moment; this would lead to tremendous maintenance problems. --Foroa (talk) 10:57, 19 August 2010 (UTC)

I think you actually might be hampered by your lack of knowledge and enthusiasm for these cuisines. Wikimedia already has Category:Cuisine of Chaoshan and Category:Hakka cuisine to name a few (both "historic" and well-known cuisines within and also outside of China), so why leave these categories underused by not linking them to the media as you propose as for instance with Category:Carrianna (Chiu Chow) Restaurant in the way I proposed above. I do not see listing it in this way as turning Wikimedia in to a "Michelin guide" but as a way of utilising the categories here in Wikimedia as they should be utilised. If you know a bit about Chinese restaurants, you might know that when a restaurant changes owner or cuisine, it will normally also change the name so the categories that define a certain restaurant will stay with that restaurant name, e.g. the categories are static. I also want to add that the whole idea of changing Category:Food of China to Category:Food products of China still does not solve the problem that we discussed on your user page. I will give one more example: Sambal. This is in some cases a product but in other cases it can also be a dish. If it's a condiment it can be categorised under "Category:Food products" but in those instances that it is a dish, it should be categorised under "Category:Cuisine". This imprecision that comes with trying to be overprecise by adding a redundant subcategory such as "Food products" only serves to make categorising items here on wikimedia harder for many contributors. - Takeaway (talk) 02:11, 24 August 2010 (UTC)