File talk:Defence Defense Labour Labor British American spelling by country.svg

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EU countries spell "organise" and "colour"?[edit]

No, we don’t. -- Tuválkin ✉ ✇ 23:27, 12 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The idea behind the map is to convey that the EU officially uses Oxford/British English, and much of Europe also is influenced by British English due to proximity to the UK. While there are some countries which allow students to pick which variant of English they want to learn (e.g., Germany), from what I've seen, the scales are largely tipped toward Oxford/British English overall. Getsnoopy (talk) 00:33, 2 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
"Officially" yes, but unofficially no. I think that's because the EU officially uses British spelling, albeit not what the population uses. SHB2000 (talk) 08:18, 2 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Meh. The whole thing is irrelevant:
    • So the E.U. officially uses British English spelling and typographic conventions because one of its member-states uses it (and I mean Ireland, by the way, since the U.K. left). And why does that show up on the map? Should the whole world be painted in some color or other because the U.N. has such and such official languages?
    • General people-on-the-street in Europe with largely superficial command of English will use this or other spelling and typographic conventions more or less randomly, most often not even realizing their are adhering to either. Neither English lessons at school nor general media access are clearly skewed to one specific set of spelling and typographic conventions.
It’s meaningless: This map should only cover locations where English is used in any official primary capacity — anything else dillutes its accuracy and distracts from the main point it purports to illustrate. -- Tuválkin ✉ ✇ 09:39, 2 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@Tuvalkin The thing is, governments tend to use British spelling, but American terms just like they mostly do in Australia (except we have our own spelling). France, Spain, Belgium, Italy and much of the EU states in former Yugoslavia and the Soviet Union almost always use British, but others like Portugal, Germany, and the Nordic countries seem to use both, with no consistency and others such as Albania and Turkey fully use American spelling. SHB2000 (talk) 11:50, 2 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Okay, I’ll byte: Tell me, @SHB2000: , which version of Portuguese spelling do the city governments of Perth, or Lausanne, or New York use in their signage and documentation aimed to their Portuguese-speaking dwellers and visitors? Is it Brazilian or so-called European? My point is that, regardless of what we might research in detail, the answer is always: It doesn’t matter. Because it is a superficial, cursory, often improvised use of language by entities that are not themselves proficient nor mandated to use Portuguese text in the bulk of their activity. Even if we would find out some or other official decision on the matter, or proof of continued practice, it would still be misleading to try to add it on a map purporting to depict worldwide variation of Portuguese spelling: Such map should be blank for all locations outside those 9 countries where Portuguese is the official language, as anything else (with the possible exceptions of Galicia and Macao, but with lots of asterisks) would be comparatively useless, and my point is that this map we’re discussing tries to do that for English, and fails.
The only way this map should not be blank ("n/a" or some such) for most of the world where English is not the official language (whose spelling practices are trivial to ascertain), would be if it were illustrating the findings of a specific source whose methodology and scope is available for consideration and discussion. As it is, this map amounts for its most part to a well-meaning collection of anedoctes about British vs. U.S. spelling used in this or that sidewalk restaurant menu card as seen by any of us in Bali, Crete, or Moscow. And that, albeit interesting, should not be made available here for reuse in encyclopedic articles.
-- Tuválkin ✉ ✇ 12:32, 2 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
To be honest, if I were able to make this map from the start, I'd have never included the EU in. But... I'm pretty neutral on which country follows which. SHB2000 (talk) 12:57, 2 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@Tuvalkin: I think you're arguing that countries without English as an official language shouldn't be on the map at all, which is frankly a separate issue, but even there, there are many countries which don't explicitly say "X is the variant of English we officially use". India, for example, undoubtedly uses British English spellings, but there are cases where they use "license" as a noun and the like. So seeing as the map is having to make that call for officially English countries, we might as well make it for other countries as well. But even more importantly, I think that's actually how this map gives a lot of value for viewers: they can see what variants are predominant in what parts of the world outside of places where it would be obvious (i.e., officially spelled out). Getsnoopy (talk) 19:52, 2 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • @Getsnoopy: Yes, I think this map should be restricted to those countries where English is the official language, or one of the official languages, in any capacity — therefore including India. I agree that this map (or any map) is useful as it shows data that might not be known to all viewers, but only as long as said data is correct. As said above, this map should show only whatever is trivial to ascertain (and that necessarily includes only official language use) or what can be extracted from a reliable source clearly identified and quoted, not from random anecdotes. -- Tuválkin ✉ ✇ 09:38, 3 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    I'm neutral on all the EU countries, but not all the others. (but I personally also think PNG should be coloured in yellow, not red because more evidence suggests that PNG uses Aus spelling, not British or American). SHB2000 (talk) 09:52, 3 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@Tuvalkin: I think therein lies the problem. Outside of probably the native English-speaking (Anglophone) countries, I don't think there are many countries whose official language (or one of them) is English that have an official style guide they publish. For example, India does not have an official style guide they publish that outlines what variant of English they use; it's deduced from all the "anecdotes" as it were. My point is if we're having to do this with countries who officially use English, then we might as well do it for countries that do not as well. The only way to have absolutely certain data on this map is to restrict the map to Anglophone countries, and that would vastly diminish the utility of this map in the first place. Getsnoopy (talk) 21:18, 3 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Switzerland has its own English style guide, which prefers British spelling in line with the EU. I saw one English style guide by the government of Japan, but it was only on tourism articles on the web. It specified that American spelling was to be used in tourism articles published by the government except if the website where it was published on uses mostly British spelling. VTSGsRock (talk) 04:14, 1 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Tuvalkin, Getsnoopy Anyway, in Portugal, don't you use British terminology as well such as "tram" instead of "streetcar" or "light rail" and "motorway" instead of "freeway"? There's much more that I can think of. SHB2000 (talk) 22:44, 3 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • @SHB2000: In Portugal we don’t use English in any official or standartized capacity, obviously, as in most other places where English is not official. (Why is this so hard to understand?!) English is better known here than in comparable locations, sure, maybe, but most people who can use it to any reasonable degree would be hard pressed to even be aware of the different variants, let alone to recognize them or, even less, follow any one of them with any consistency. -- Tuválkin ✉ ✇ 00:44, 4 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    But I still get the same sentiments as Getsnoopy. SHB2000 (talk) 01:13, 4 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
For what I worth, I've created Official English spelling conventions by country.svg, which only includes countries where English is an official language or the primary language. This resolves any disputes regarding the use of English in countries where English is neither official nor primary language. Sbb1413 (he) (talk • contribs) 10:13, 3 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
That seems great, thank you. I’s suggest to go fothr and replace the uses of this faulty map with that new one. -- Tuválkin ✉ ✇ 15:59, 3 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Indonesia use American spelling[edit]

Indonesians use US spelling in official/government documents (Proof: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:SIM_A.jpg). Can anyone change this map? Ivan Humphrey (talk) 09:53, 17 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Ivan Humphrey: Indonesia is a little bit of a weird situation, mostly because personally, I've never seen any consistent usage in Indonesia. While place names such as Jakarta City Center use American spelling, a lot of tourist blogs and websites use either the British or Australian spelling in particular, Bali. Then there's also the Australian and Singaporean teachers in Indonesia, who most would be teaching Australian and British spelling respectively, not the American. w:Talk:Indonesia seems to say to use British spelling, but there's other Indonesian articles which US spelling is used more about articles about Kalimantan. Other news sources I'm finding seem to show no consistency with some words spelled as "programme", and then in that same article there's "organize".
In my opinion, Indonesia should be showing grey/gray simply because there's no consistency there, and it may be misleading. SHB2000 (talk) 10:24, 4 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

East Africa[edit]

Uganda and Kenya should be coloured deep red, since English is an official language in both countries. 64.203.187.74 17:45, 26 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Done. Getsnoopy (talk) 01:10, 2 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

PNG and Nauru[edit]

Given that PNG and Nauru were former Australian territories up until 1975 and 1968 respectively, wouldn't they essentially be using Australian spelling, not British? SHB2000 (talk) 13:20, 1 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Does anyone (maybe Ivan Humphrey based on the above thread) know how to fix this? SHB2000 (talk) 13:37, 1 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
PNG was half controlled by Australia, while the other half was British, so it's up in the air which one has more influence. Seeing as the differences among British and Australian English are few, we'd need more evidence to change it to the Australian colour. I'll change Nauru to Australian English though. Getsnoopy (talk) 00:35, 2 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
technically the British part was ceded to Australia after the Federation and the German territory was later taken by Australia after WWI. Wikipedia uses Australian spelling, but from what I know, the entire eastern half of New Guinea (what is now the entire country of PNG) was controlled by Australia (external source and government source) so technically all of the country was once under Australian rule. But thanks for changing Nauru. SHB2000 (talk) 01:50, 2 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@Getsnoopy courtesy ping (I usually prefer pings since I've given up on watchlists and I somehow forgot to ping you here). SHB2000 (talk) 04:42, 2 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@SHB2000: Interesting point. But according to this article, Papua was still technically a territory separate from Australia until PNG's independence, so there's that. Then again, given the distinctions the map makes, we're talking about basically finding some documents from the PNG government where they use program instead of programme or the like as a minimal pair in order to establish this difference, so it's quite a close call. WP seems to use British English on the PNG page, so I guess we'd have to find some document to corroborate this. PS: +1 for courtesy ping; I'm not vigilant about watchlists either. Getsnoopy (talk) 19:47, 2 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@Getsnoopy But the article says the following:

In 1949, the Territory and the Territory of New Guinea were established in an administrative union by the name of the Territory of Papua and New Guinea.

and also On 18 March 1902, the Territory was placed under the authority of the Commonwealth of Australia..
And w:Territory of Papua and New Guinea seems to say that

The Territory of Papua and New Guinea was established by an administrative union between the Australian-administered territories of Papua and New Guinea in 1949.

Meaning that the entire modern PNG was technically administered under Australia from 1949-75 (and there's this to support that as well). Wikipedia seems to use Australian spelling for w:Talk:Port Moresby, the part that was earlier controlled by the British (the northern part was controlled by the Germans but later by Australia). Interesting to see that Wikipedia uses British english for the PNG article, but then the fact that it was mostly controlled by Australia isn't a well known fact.
And to the spelling and vocab differences, here's what. I found:
I could give more sources if needed but I think this all alone is quite enough to conclude that PNG officially uses Australian spelling. SHB2000 (talk) 00:48, 3 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
More uses of "program" in PNG:
  • Basic Education Development Program
  • District Service Improvement Program
  • Education Capacity Building Program
  • Health Sector Improvement Program
  • National Agriculture Development Program.
all from this government document SHB2000 (talk) 01:11, 3 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Other note, PNG uses the Australian "verandah" (source) and not the British veranda. SHB2000 (talk) 03:07, 3 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@SHB2000: Thank you for searching and compiling those. Interestingly, the first two PNG government documents you cited both use -ize and -ise suffixes inconsistently, and one of them uses programme as well. Even PNG Unitech seems to have various spellings of programme vs. program within the same page. I suspect that the PNG government doesn't have a firm policy on which specific variant or style of spelling to use, as long as it's "generally British" (i.e., Commonwealth spelling), seeing as both of the suffixes are technically part of "British English", while I think Australian exclusively uses -ise suffixes. The point about verandah is a valid one. Interestingly, Google searches for analogue and veranda yield more results than those for analog and verandah. Google Trends yields similar results for analogue vs. analog as well. Given the mixed results, I think it's best to just keep the British colour coding in order to allow for a more "comprehensive" label for PNG, since Oxford and Collins, both dictionaries for British/Oxford English, acknowledge variants of spellings such as veranda (as verandah) and the like. Getsnoopy (talk) 05:39, 3 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@Getsnoopy Technically "analogue" and "veranda" are still acceptable spellings, and I've seen it being used in more of the northern areas of Australia (hence maybe why PNG uses those). Re I think Australian exclusively uses -ise suffixes, -ize spellings are still accepted as per w:Macquarie Dictionary#Preferred spellings and I've occasionally seen it creep up as well. While I'm okay with it staying as British spelling, I also don't want to use wrong colour when this has now been brought up given that the entire country was once an Australian territory and the Australian "program" dominates. (also, on another note, which program are you using to make this map?) SHB2000 (talk) 05:49, 3 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@SHB2000: Frankly, I don't know if PNG being under Australian influence has had much of an effect on their spelling historically. The main reason program particularly as a spelling even became popularized in Australia and other places is because of software "programs" from the US being used, and those only became prevalent around the world post-1980s, which probably explains the continued use of programme in PNG. I'm not sure that using the "wrong colour" is a big concern as such, seeing as we're merely talking about a few words that are different between the two variants. If more people complain about this, it can always be changed with relative ease. Regarding that, I'm using merely a text editor to change the colours since it's a human-editable SVG; the file is well commented to allow for this. Getsnoopy (talk) 06:20, 3 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@Getsnoopy Which text editor are you using? (might try it out as well) SHB2000 (talk) 06:31, 3 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@SHB2000: I use Sublime Text for all of my code editing needs. It's quite fast and easy to use. Getsnoopy (talk) 21:09, 3 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks. Tried it out, and works well. SHB2000 (talk) 02:36, 4 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

English spelling in Latin America[edit]

I kind of doubt that American English is preferred everywhere in Latin America. For starters, I know a Chilean who spells "colour" and not "color", but he doesn't really care. And where is American English preferred? Maybe Mexico, I don't know. If anyone is from Latin America, please discuss this. CarCrazedAlex586 (talk) 14:53, 17 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I'd say such a non-preference should be conveyed with the color grey (or maybe gray). --Enyavar (talk) 14:01, 13 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Brazil uses mostly American spelling as far as I know on the gov.br website, although it uses "defence" and "defense" inconsistently (in particular referring to the Ministry of Defen(c/s)e). The only instance of "labour" I could find refers to the International Labour Organization and I can't find any use of colour, flavour, behavior, etc. Luiz Inácio Lula da Silva's speech at the UN General Assembly uses Oxford spelling (organization, but paralysed, labour, programmes), but this makes sense because that is the one used by the UN and its agencies. VTSGsRock (talk) 03:20, 10 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

More countries[edit]

Based on what I saw from government websites,

  • Angola, Argentina, Algeria, Colombia, Côte d'Ivoire, Egypt, Guinea-Bissau, Peru, Mexico, Venezuela, and Yemen mostly use American spelling.
  • Armenia, Brazil, and Cambodia mostly use American spelling, although they are inconsistent with defence/defense. In the case of Cambodia, the spelling used by the Ministry of Foreign Affairs and International Cooperation can vary depending on the article. If it is about an EU member state or former British colony, the spellings tend to lean towards British, all others tend to mostly use American spelling.
  • Iran, Uzbekistan, and Vietnam inconsistently use American and British spelling. In Iran, the British spellings moderately prevail except for program(me)
  • Russia mostly uses British spelling, although many can be spelled with American too.

VTSGsRock (talk) 01:47, 16 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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