File talk:WW2-Holocaust-Poland.PNG

 

Very busy image

Hi. The current image has a lot of information on it, all currently visually shouting for attention. The change I made was to allow the most important information (site locations) to stay visually important, but names of areas, and the colours of areas to be more faded - there is no need for them to be bright, just legible / differentiated. Hohum (talk) 13:27, 30 March 2018 (UTC)

• I hear you, but what is most important depends on the part of the Holocaust history you're concerned with. Wikipedia articles illustrated with this image vary greatly ... from death camps, to ghettos, to new regions of Nazi Germany, to sites of extermination, to deportation routes, etc. For example, in an article about Ponary massacre (one of several dozens), borders are more important than cities, while in articles about ghettos, deportation routes are more important than borders, and so on. I can tone down some parts, using Photoshop layers, but not everything at once, like you tried. Also, please tell what parts of this map are important to you specifically, and what Wikipedia article brought you here? I'd like to understand your argument better. Thanks, Poeticbent talk 20:35, 30 March 2018 (UTC)

I only want to tone down two things, region names, and region colours. They should still be perfectly legible/discernable, of course, just not so demanding of attention. If everything demands attention at once, it's not working as an informational map well. I've come across the image on various articles, but primarily w:Extermination camp and specific camp articles. As such, locating the individual camps/ghettos would seem to be the first thing people will want to do, seeing where that fits in the general "national" borders, with the exact names of specific subregions being last on the list. It would be useful if everything inside the Polish border had a colour bias different to the surroundings (or vice versa) - to give instant visual context, figuring out which border colour surrounds what is tricky. Hohum (talk) 15:01, 31 March 2018 (UTC)

• Poland's "national borders" are interlaced with Reichskommissariat borders, i.e. Ostland or Ukraine. Change of hue for Poland alone would be misleading. Please take into account also the necessity to accomodate people with vision impairment. I've dealt with similar complaints in the past already. I can tone down names of specific subregions a bit, but I would also love to get feedback from other Wikipedians like User:Piotrus for example. Poeticbent talk 18:01, 31 March 2018 (UTC)

I'd be amazed if people with various forms of colour blindness or other vision impairments could figure out all the different border types already included. Perhaps a solution is splitting it into separate images instead of forcing so many different layers of information into such an overcrowded one.

The location marks are overly complex too. Deaths heads, some with black backgrounds, some without, and yellow stars on a shiny rounded red background.

I know it takes a lot of time and effort to gather the information and then provide an accurate visual portrayal. I'm not dismissive of your work, just trying to think of ways to provide better visual access to it. Hohum (talk) 18:32, 31 March 2018 (UTC)

It's a free image, so interested editors can prepare alt versions, and we can discuss their merits. What's the difference between skull and skull on black background? I think 'just skull' is 'site of massacre' or such, but this is not in the legend. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus ^Talk 07:34, 1 April 2018 (UTC)

Thanks for the feedback. I revised the legend to clarify the meaning of symbols used for the extermination camps and the sites of mass shootings. Poeticbent talk 18:04, 1 April 2018 (UTC)

Addendum: Please be advised that the color breakdown, and the icons used to signify specific historical concepts, are NOT originally created for this map. The original creator of File:WW2-Holocaust-Europe.png, User:Dna-webmaster, introduced the ghetto icons i.e.: the "yellow stars on a shiny rounded red background". His own icon-designs are being kept the same, including for the ghettos (stars) and for the killing sites i.e.: "deaths heads, some with black backgrounds, some without" (see Babi Yar, Ponary, Rumbula) as well as, for the selected concentration camps (Soldau, Plaszow, Zaslaw), and the burgundy arrows for deportation routes. The original map by Dna-webmaster was subsequently cropped by Piotrus to produce a brand-new (and rudimentary first map of the Holocaust in Poland on 19 February 2009). The icons by User:Dna-webmaster are open for debate, although I see no problem with them whatsoever. They have been improved and cleaned already in much higher resolution. Poeticbent talk 17:04, 11 May 2018 (UTC)

Which "Poland"?

Both the name and the border on the map suggest, there existed Poland, which was occupied during WW2, like eg. the Netherlands. But Poland was cancelled by Germany and SU in 1939. Both countries annexed lands, not 'occupied' them. General Gouvernment was a colony, similar to German colonies in Africa. The map misinforms, supports stereotypes. Xx236 (talk) 14:36, 16 December 2020 (UTC)