Commons talk:Deletion requests/File:Child affected by malnutrition.jpg

 

Renaming of "File:Child affected by malnutrition 1921-1923 Famine in Soviet Russia.jpg"

The file "File:Child affected by malnutrition 1921-1923 Famine in Soviet Russia.jpg" was nominated for renaming on 27 November 2010 by Jo0doe to the present filename. On 3 December 2010, Lvivske nominated the file to be transferred back to the original name with the edit summary "bad faith edits caused name to be changed incorrectly". As there is a dispute about what the proper name of the file should be, the file should not be renamed until the matter is discussed on here and a consensus is reached. — Cheers, JackLee ^–talk– 10:16, 3 December 2010 (UTC)

The image in question is from 1933 and this was already discussed on the Holodomor article on the english wikipedia. I am copying over the discussion from my talk page in which i proved this image is authentic. the photo`s were taken by one cardinal Theodor Innitzer [1] [2] and are authentic. This renaming is wrong on so many levels it shocks me. The image is authentic and was taken during the Holodomor, please change the title back. Marknutley (talk) 10:34, 3 December 2010 (UTC)

I see. However, the information you provided has created a further difficulty. Theodor Innitzer died on 9 October 1955. According to {{PD-Ukraine}}, for an image to be in the public domain in Ukraine, it must have been "published before January 1, 1951, and the creator (if known) died before that date". I do not know when the photograph was first published, but Innitzer did not die before 1 January 1951, which means that {{PD-Ukraine}} is inapplicable. — Cheers, JackLee ^–talk– 10:57, 3 December 2010 (UTC)

It was first published in 1934 [3] according to time magazine. Also he was the archbishop of vienna and that is were his archive is stored, i don`t see how ukrainian copyright law has any bearing on this image at all Marknutley (talk) 11:14, 3 December 2010 (UTC)

User Jo0doe was indefinitely blocked both in en-wiki & ru-wiki for disruption & Holodomor-related POV-pushing, so we should be extremely careful with his statements and his sources in this topic. Trycatch (talk) 11:49, 3 December 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for your opinion. I suggest you to read this thread [4] - were you can find an advice by user:Lupo - and here is sources - page 49 [5] and page 24[6] which clearly indicate the image "from the period of the first Soviet

famine in 1921-22, mostly from the Volga Region" - see also about only known authentic images from Soviet Ukraine 1933[7]. Or you can check «Union internationale de secours aux enfants» 1922 publication about famine.

re User:Marknutley) you claims the photo`s were taken by one cardinal Theodor Innitzer seems to be a very strange - becouse it's well known fact that the [[[:en:Theodor Innitzer]] never visit Soviet Ukraine - so -it's would be nice to heard an explantion about how Theodor Innitzer can be an author. I suggest - before renaming to check

«Union internationale de secours aux enfants» publication (avilable at Swiss and UK - and in some posters in Kiev (Ukraine) and in Podolsk (Russia))- otherwice you'll have "Victims of the Holodomor" 1933 which a taken by Nansen Commission in 1921 - check this [8] "http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Russia_Famine_Saratov_1921.jpg" ThanksJo0doe (talk) 12:56, 3 December 2010 (UTC)

[9] clearly states the images are from the archive of the Cardinal. Also from here [10] "It now appears that the genuine and authentic photographs in Ammende's book were taken by Alexander Wienerberger. See his Hart auf Hart: 25 Jahre Ingenieur in Sowjetrussland which contains many of the photographs in Ammende's book, and the collection of photographs from Cardinal Theodor Innitzer's archives in Vienna in The 1933 Original Photographs from Karkiv, Ukraine." There is no doubt that the images from the Cardinals archive are authentic, the only people who dispute these are nationalists who deny the Holodomor. Your links, the Harriman Institute .pdf does not have this image in it, it does however have an image from the holodomor on page 8, I am unsure why you linked to that source? Your link to the .pdf at history.org also has no mention of this image, again I am unsure why you have linked to this. There is no doubt to the authenticity of the image and you are just playing silly buggers here. Stop. Marknutley (talk) 13:15, 3 December 2010 (UTC)

Whait, link [11] clearly state: "Famine-Genocide in Ukraine, 1932-1933: Western Archives, Testimonies and New Research / Edited by Wsevolod W. Isajiw. - Toronto: Ukrainian Canadian Research and Documentation Centre, Toronto, 2003" - source [12]page 49 clerly indicate that specific source - namely "Famine-Genocide in Ukraine..." used pictures from 1920s Famine. At link [13] there no similar to image in question exist (if I'm wrong - please suggest a link). The source [14] clearly indicate fly-leaf and spine of the book (were image in question appeared) is clearly indicated as a photo from the period of the 1921-1923 famine) (note 16). I can upload the specific page from source described- if you wish. ThanksJo0doe (talk) 14:16, 3 December 2010 (UTC)

You really ought to look at your sources a little better, 16. Holodomor 1932-1933 rokiv v Ukraїni: Dokumenty i materialy, compiled by Ruslan Pyrih (Kyiv: Vydavnychyi dim “Kyievo-Mohylians′ka akademiia,” 2007). Note in particular the fl y-leaf and spine of the book (with photos from the period of the 1921-1923 famine). Were exactly does that cast doubt on the authenticity of this image being discussed here? Mark (talk) 14:25, 3 December 2010 (UTC)

image being discussed here appeared at "fl y-leaf and spine of the book" clearly indicated as photos from the period of the 1921-1923 famine. Do you need a copy - Just ask.I have one Thanks Jo0doe (talk) 14:32, 3 December 2010 (UTC)

• Here it is [15]. Any questions about photos from the period of the 1921-1923 famine?Jo0doe (talk) 15:05, 3 December 2010 (UTC)

find a second picture here [16]. ThanksJo0doe (talk) 15:09, 3 December 2010 (UTC)

JoOdoe, i have no idea were your first image comes from but the date on it says 1933, the second image is dated from the 21-23 famine but again, this has nothing to do with this image. We have a reliable source saying this particular image is from 1933 and is authentic, all you have provided is a self published website which btw also says this image is authentic. Mark (talk) 15:26, 3 December 2010 (UTC)

Yes, We have a two reliable sources saying this particular image is from 1921-1923 Famine. Can you name a source "saying this particular image is from 1933 and is authentic" - ? ThanksJo0doe (talk) 15:32, 3 December 2010 (UTC)

Erm, nope. you have not provided a single source to show this image is from 21/23. I however have supplied a reliable source which says this image is authentic and is from the cardinals archive. Your just being silly now so quit it Mark (talk) 15:38, 3 December 2010 (UTC)

See above [17]page 49 clerly indicate that specific source - namely "Famine-Genocide in Ukraine..." used pictures from 1920s Famine. At link [18] there no similar to image in question exist (if I'm wrong - please suggest a link). The source [19] clearly indicate fly-leaf and spine of the book (were image in question appeared) is clearly indicated as a photo from the period of the 1921-1923 famine) (note 16). - fly-leaf and spine of the book uploaded [20]. Mark I however have supplied a reliable source - could you suggest name of source, author(s) and publisher. ThanksJo0doe (talk) 15:44, 3 December 2010 (UTC)

Pausing for breath ...

Let's assume for the sake of argument that Marknutley is right and the photograph was taken by Innitzer. Is there some other ground on which the photograph can be in the public domain apart from {{PD-Ukraine}}, which would then be inapplicable since Innitzer died after 1 January 1951? If not, the image will have to be nominated for deletion as being still subject to copyright. — Cheers, JackLee ^–talk– 13:38, 3 December 2010 (UTC)

Yes, the Cardinal was based in Vienna. What is the copyright laws for austria as the image would fall under their remit, not ukraine. Marknutley (talk) 13:44, 3 December 2010 (UTC)

And if it helps That is why, at present, all we have at our disposal are a few photographs from the collection of the Viennese Cardinal Theodor Innitzer and photographs taken by foreign correspondents. All of them were initially published in the 1930s in the Western press and were later republished many times, prompting numerous discussions. page 13 [21] originaly published in Harvard Ukrainian studies Mark (talk) 13:52, 3 December 2010 (UTC)

If the photograph (and similar ones by Innitzer) were published in Austria and in other EU countries and the identities of the photographers are known, then I believe the 70 p.m.a. rule applies. In other words, each photograph will enter the public domain 70 years following the end of the year in which its author died. As such, the present photograph will become free on 1 January 2025. This is probably not what you wanted to hear. If the photographer is unknown and cannot be identified with due diligence, then the copyright in the photograph expires 70 years from the date when it was first published. We'd have to know this date to establish accurately if the copyright has expired, but I'm prepared to accept that an anonymous photograph published no later than 31 December 1939 is now in the public domain. I'm happy to be corrected on this by another editor.

I suggest that you go through all the photographs relating to this subject and identify which ones are anonymous and which ones are not. — Cheers, JackLee ^–talk– 13:59, 3 December 2010 (UTC)

(Edit conflict) Well we don`t know who actually took the photographs, the Cardinal used them to raise awareness of the ongoing famine in 33. We know from the sources it was first published in 1933 and i suppose it is anonymous as we do not know who took the photo (they had to be smuggled out of the country), so I figure it is public domain. Mark (talk) 14:13, 3 December 2010 (UTC)

Any photographs that are truly anonymous and not photographed by Innitzer (contrary to what you stated in your earlier messages) and first published Austria or elsewhere in the EU can be tagged with {{PD-anon-70}}. {{PD-Ukraine}} should be removed from such images as it does not apply. — Cheers, JackLee ^–talk– 14:26, 3 December 2010 (UTC)

I`m afraid i do not know how to do that :) would you be so kind? And i do not believe i stated the cardianl took the photo`s, I said they came from his archive. Sorry if I made a mistake. Mark (talk) 14:37, 3 December 2010 (UTC)

Easy as pie:

1. Click on the "Edit" tab of each image.
2. Search for the phrase "{{PD-Ukraine}}" (it will either appear after "permission =" or in a section headed "== Licensing ==" or "== {{int:license}}==". You can press Ctrl-F and do a search for the phrase "PD-Ukraine".
3. Replace "{{PD-Ukraine}}" with "{{PD-anon-70}}".

Try it! But make sure that the image satisfies the requirements of {{PD-anon-70}} before you make the change. — Cheers, JackLee ^–talk– 14:47, 3 December 2010 (UTC)

Reliable sources

re:Mark Cardinal used them to raise awareness of the ongoing famine in 33. -

Quote from Times [22] - Monday, Jan. 22, 1934 

"A further increase of the starvation is just around the corner. The comparatively good harvest of the autumn (1933) will alleviate the situation only temporarily. If further mass starvation is to be prevented a large scale relief action must be put into effect.". What are kind of ongoing famine in 33. exist in February 1934? Can you suggest a source for Ukrainian Famine 1934Jo0doe (talk) 14:29, 3 December 2010 (UTC)

• Misuse of the 1921-1923 photodocuments (mostly without any captions, or references to sources) to depict the tragedy of 1932-1933 is becoming increasingly popular; - from [23] - Unless evidence to the contrary is presented, these twenty-one pictures are the only photographs of the famine that may be accepted as both genuine and authentic. [24] - set does not contain the image in questionJo0doe (talk) 14:19, 3 December 2010 (UTC)

Garethjones.org is not a reliable source for information, but the site clearly states the images provide the the cardinal are authentic. "It now appears that the genuine and authentic photographs in Ammende's book were taken by Alexander Wienerberger. See his Hart auf Hart: 25 Jahre Ingenieur in Sowjetrussland which contains many of the photographs in Ammende's book, and the collection of photographs from Cardinal Theodor Innitzer's archives in Vienna in The 1933 Original Photographs from Karkiv, Ukraine." so by your own admission (by using garethjones.org as a source) you say this particular photograph of a starving child is authentic, cheers Mark (talk) 14:37, 3 December 2010 (UTC)

Can you suggest a specific image from these twenty-one pictures [25] which depict image in question? Any suggestion about source ongoing famine 1933 in February 1934. Does [26] a reliable source? ThanksJo0doe (talk) 14:48, 3 December 2010 (UTC)

PS- I'll hope we will not use a logical fallacies (i.e. Mark images provide the the cardinal are authentic IS NOT equall to these twenty-one picturesare the only photographs of the famine that may be accepted as both genuine and authentic. clearly suggested at http://www.garethjones.org/soviet_articles/thomas_walker/muss_russland_hungern.htm]) - thanksJo0doe (talk) 14:51, 3 December 2010 (UTC)

For the last time, garethjones.org is not a reliable source for information, but the sites author states the cardinals images are authentic. Now we either take this guy at his word and certain images are fraudulent then we also have to take his word the the images from the cardinals archive are authentic. Sorry but you can`t have it both ways. Mark (talk) 15:07, 3 December 2010 (UTC)

Whait, you forgot - sites author states - these twenty-one picturesare the only photographs of the famine that may be accepted as both genuine and authentic. Can you suggest an image in question among these 21? Thank you . Source [27] clearly designate [28] image in question and [29] image as 1921-1923 Famine. ThanksJo0doe (talk) 15:29, 3 December 2010 (UTC)

Several claims

by Mark with comments by Jo0doe

• The image in question is from 1933 and this was already discussed on the Holodomor article on the english wikipedia. I am copying over the discussion from my talk page in which i proved this image is authentic.

actually would be intresting to see - I don't remember if the specific image was discussed. i proved this image is authentic - "i" is not reliable nor scholar sourceJo0doe (talk) 15:52, 3 December 2010 (UTC)

• the photo`s were taken by one cardinal Theodor Innitzer [1] [2] and are authentic

later suggested as false claim - not taken by cardinal Theodor Innitzer Jo0doe (talk) 15:53, 3 December 2010 (UTC)

• It was first published in 1934 [3] according to time magazine.

"Time" publication does not contain the picture in question - another false claimJo0doe (talk) 15:55, 3 December 2010 (UTC)

• [9] clearly states the images are from the archive of the Cardinal

source actually stated "Famine-Genocide in Ukraine, 1932-1933: Western Archives, Testimonies and New Research / Edited by Wsevolod W. Isajiw. - Toronto: Ukrainian Canadian Research and Documentation Centre, Toronto, 2003" - source [30]page 49 clerly indicate that specific source - namely "Famine-Genocide in Ukraine..." used pictures from 1920s Famine.Jo0doe (talk) 15:57, 3 December 2010 (UTC)

• I however have supplied a reliable source which says this image is authentic

there no source supplied for "image is authentic"Jo0doe (talk) 15:58, 3 December 2010 (UTC)

• , the Cardinal used them to raise awareness of the ongoing famine in 33.

The source ("Time") clerly was published January 22 1934 and Cardinal spoked about alleged approached "1934 famine"Jo0doe (talk) 16:01, 3 December 2010 (UTC)

• you say this particular photograph of a starving child is authentic,

NoJo0doe (talk) 16:03, 3 December 2010 (UTC)

• [36] This is the only information at the ICRC regarding the 21/22 famine

there a lot of publications, several films by ICRC regarding the 21/23 famine - it's well known - just another false claim - I think [31] - is a single propose accountJo0doe (talk) 16:45, 3 December 2010 (UTC)

• i have already proved sources which clearly state the image is authentic, so just give it up

actually no single source which suggest "image is authentic" were provided Jo0doe (talk) 06:28, 6 December 2010 (UTC)

• • Seems too many strange claimsJo0doe (talk) 16:03, 3 December 2010 (UTC)

A responce

the photo`s were taken by one cardinal Theodor Innitzer A simple typo the image was taken from the cardinals archives. Not a false claim at all. I did not state I was a reliable source I said the source I provided which states the image is authentic was reliable, big difference. This constant disruption from you across multipile projects is tiresome, why not stop. There is no evidence whatsoever that the image in question is from the 21/22 famine, as such I am going to rename the image and change the PD-anon-70 as suggested by jack. Sources which state the image is from the Cardinal as already posted. That is why, at present, all we have at our disposal are a few photographs from the collection of the Viennese Cardinal Theodor Innitzer and photographs taken by foreign correspondents. All of them were initially published in the 1930s in the Western press and were later republished many times, prompting numerous discussions. page 13 [32] originaly published in Harvard Ukrainian studies [33] Cheers Mark (talk) 16:05, 3 December 2010 (UTC)

It would be nice if you'll provide a link to "discussion" (was already discussed on the Holodomor article ). Sources clearly indicated the image in question as 1921-1923 Famine provided. Again - I ask you to check «Union internationale de secours aux enfants» 1922 publication were you can find a name of actual author of image. ThanksJo0doe (talk) 16:10, 3 December 2010 (UTC)

A link to what discussion? And would you provide a link to Union internationale de secours aux enfants» 1922 publication this? Mark (talk) 16:14, 3 December 2010 (UTC)

• [34] - may be a single propose account? - Check few actual 1932-1933 images uploaded [35] [36] Thanks P.S. Union internationale de secours aux enfants publication avialable at places cited earlier. ThanksJo0doe (talk) 16:16, 3 December 2010 (UTC)

[37] This is the only information at the ICRC regarding the 21/22 famine. Funnily enough the image here is not in that article. The only cite`s you have given do not support your position nor do any of the mention this image. Mark (talk) 16:29, 3 December 2010 (UTC)

Further Union internationale de secours aux enfants [38] this is the only information from their regarding the 21/22 famine, it does not mention this image Mark (talk) 16:34, 3 December 2010 (UTC)

• • As far as there no respond about was already discussed on the Holodomor article - I'll wait. Try places clearly indicated here [39] - - I suggest you to provide a recent reliable source(s) which suggested other then Famine 1921-1923 identification - provided by reliable sources - namely [40] [41]Jo0doe (talk) 16:41, 3 December 2010 (UTC)

Sheesh, it does not matter how many times you link to the harriman institute pdf it does not say what you want it to say, nor does the pdf at history.org. Now i have already proved sources which clearly state the image is authentic, so just give it up Mark (talk) 16:52, 3 December 2010 (UTC)

He'll never give up, this is why he keeps getting banned.--Lvivske (talk) 22:02, 3 December 2010 (UTC)

Summary

Suggested by edit [42] image description as Child victim of the Holodomor. 1933 archive photo made in Ukraine and Date=1933 - does not appeared at link [43]. It would be neutral to suggest that the editor simply never seen an Famine-Genocide in Ukraine, 1932-1933: Western Archives, Testimonies and New Research; Edited by Wsevolod W. Isajiw. - Toronto: Ukrainian Canadian Research and Documentation Centre, Toronto, 2003 - which contain a chapter named "Ukrainian Famine of 1921-23 in the Light of Recent Research". And, may be, editor does not carafully read about note from canadian publication- The provenenance of photographic evidence ... is difficult to determine.Illustrations included in this publication are drawn from... And [44]page 49 clearly indicate that specific source - namely "Famine-Genocide in Ukraine..." used pictures from 1920s Famine. The source [45] clearly indicate fly-leaf and spine of the book [46]- (were image in question appeared) is clearly indicated as a photo from the period of the 1921-1923 famine) (note 16). Same as [47] for part of third image [48] appeared partially (legs) at [49].

There no source provided to ground a "rename" process - image description is incorrect - per suggestions from 3 provided sources. ThanksJo0doe (talk) 07:03, 6 December 2010 (UTC)

Your an idiot. Again the harriman link does not say what you want it to say. Nor does the new links you have added. [50] [51] I`m going to rename the picture as there is no evidence that it is not authentic and there evidence that it is. Mark (talk) 16:11, 7 December 2010 (UTC)

New links I've have added: [52] [53] related to part of third images appeared at

[54]- it's taken in 1922. The source [55] clearly indicate all of them as "from the period of the 1921-1923 famine" Thank youJo0doe (talk) 15:20, 8 December 2010 (UTC)

OK, guys, please relax and do not use insulting terms to refer to each other. I suggest that someone who is neutral should review the evidence that has been referred to so far and express a view on the matter? I'm a little busy at the moment but if you wait a few days I can try to do that. Alternatively, one of you could leave a message at "Commons:Village pump" and ask another uninvolved editor to help out in this respect. — Cheers, JackLee ^–talk– 16:14, 7 December 2010 (UTC)

Evidence For

It has been suggested by user:JoOdoe that this image is from the 1920`s famine in the ukraine. This is not the case. The image is seen here on this government website which is obviously a reliable source for information. [56] It credits the image to the archives of Theodor Innitzer and from this Time article you can see the cardinal showed photographs of the famine while fund raising to get aid. [57] [58] The image is also published in this reliable source Famine in Ukraine, 1932–1933 by experts in the field George S. N. Luckyj, Roman Serbyn, and Wsevolod Isajiw. There is no doubt to it`s authenticity whatsoever and i request it be renamed. Mark (talk) 16:31, 7 December 2010 (UTC)

The [59]page 49 and [60] page 24 suggested the image in question as from "the period of the 1921-1923 famine" at "Soviet Russia" (it's quite wider term -check map [61]). The source [62] suggest it as taken from Famine-Genocide in Ukraine, 1932-1933: Western Archives, Testimonies and New Research; Edited by Wsevolod W. Isajiw. - Toronto: Ukrainian Canadian Research and Documentation Centre, Toronto, 2003 - which also include section about 1921-23 Famine in South- and South-East Guberniyas of the Ukrainian SRR. Instead of other images [63] [64] the description of image does not say about the date, place and reliability of source. The source [65]page 49 clearly indicate that specific source - namely "Famine-Genocide in Ukraine..." -used pictures from 1920s Famine. Canadian publication suggest that the The provenenance of photographic evidence is difficult to determine. It's known that the Roman Serbyn used 1922 Famine Images taken by Nansen at Russia [66] for front cover of the book [67] on similar topic. No "Time" nor Canadian newspaper depict the image in question. Thank you Jo0doe (talk) 15:39, 8 December 2010 (UTC)

Ruslan Pyrih rejects photo!

File:2007ff.jpg

2007 version of book by Ruslan Pyrih

I have located something interesting, namely two three versions of the book Holodomor 1932-1933 rokiv v Ukraїni: Dokumenty i materialy, compiled by Ruslan Pyrih.

• Pyrig, Ruslan (2007) „Голодомор 1932-33 років в Україні: документи і матеріали” ("Famine in Ukraine 1932-33: documents and materials), Kyiv Mohyla Academy ISBN: 978-966-518-419-5. – ISBN 978-966-518-419-5

The PDF content can be accessed in 10 separate files. Pages 1129–1147 contain a picture supplement. The picture supplement – in a version dated March 30, 2009 – is available as a separate file from this link:

• http://history.org.ua/LiberUA/Book/G_DM/10.pdf

A different – most likely updated – version of the book fromuploaded on November 16, 2010. is available here.

• Pyrig, Ruslan (2007) „Голодомор 1932-33 років в Україні: документи і матеріали” ("Famine in Ukraine 1932-33: documents and materials), Kyiv Mohyla Academy ISBN: 978-966-518-419-5. – ISBN 978-966-518-419-5

The 73 MB file contains a scanned version of the printed book. The picture supplement (pages 1129–1147) is on pages 1138–1156 of the PDF file.

The two files differ on pages 10 and 11 of the picture supplement. The four pictures on these two pages have been removed from the 2010 file and replaced by photos from other pages. I do recognize one of the four pictures removed as a 1921 Nansen photo. (There is the theoretical possibility that the four pictures have been added, but I find it highly unlikely as two of the missing pictures are well known fakes.)

It seems that someone has pointed out that these four photographs are not authentic, and they have thus been removed from the 2010 reprint. This alone is not yet proof that this file is from 1921, but at least Ruslan Pyrih no longer considers it authenticated. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 20:52, 7 December 2010 (UTC) – Updated: 22:22, 7 December 2010 (UTC)

The content of athe 1990 version of the book is available in HTLM form at the Ukrainian National Archives The w:Holodomor article uses it as a reference. I prepared this reference for the book, but someone reverted the whole section.

• Pyrig, Ruslan (1990) Голод 1932-1933 років на Україні: очима істориків, мовою документів (Famine in Ukraine 1932-33), NAS Ukraine.In-t history Ukraine.-K., Kyiv Mohyla Academy ISBN: 5-319-00827-9. – ISBN 5-319-00827-9

-- Petri Krohn (talk) 22:22, 7 December 2010 (UTC)

• It's hard to say what version is chronologically first. Version from http://chtyvo.org.ua is not from 2010, basically it's a scan of 2007 printed edition, uploaded to http://chtyvo.org.ua (one more pirate library) in 2010. I can't find anything about the version from http://history.org.ua/, maybe it was the first, maybe not, maybe "March 30, 2009" date is meaningful, maybe not. These links don't prove anything. Trycatch (talk) 22:57, 7 December 2010 (UTC)

  I agree that it is very difficult to tell which of the two versions is earlier. One would have to visit a local book store a ask the sales people or something. However, the fact the the two versions differs means we have to be very careful and suspicious with these photographs. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 23:11, 7 December 2010 (UTC)

  After studying the two versions I am now confident that the four pictures were removed, not added.

  1. It is highly unusual that a book is substantially changed in the middle of a print run. A very good reason is needed. Errata would qualify, the urge to squeeze in for more unattributed photographs does not.
  2. The four missing photos are among the few in the collection without attribution.
  3. Two of the four photos are known 1921 famine photos, namely File:Famine Saratov 1922.jpg and this photo of three children. The two photos are not available in the on-line Nansen archive, but these two seem to be taken at the same locations.
  4. The layout in the 2009 version is consistent and of high professional quality with an even distribution of pictures. The 2010 version is not as good, and the "hole" is evident. It reminds me of the Lavrentiy Beria patchwork of Great Soviet Encyclopedia. Note especially the artistic rendering of Famine Saratov 1922. One would have to reinvent the same process two years after the first printing.

  -- Petri Krohn (talk) 01:17, 8 December 2010 (UTC)

It seems that someone has pointed out that these four photographs are not authentic and your proof for this assertion would be? As trycatch said, your links prove nothing, your making it up as you go. Mark (talk) 09:41, 8 December 2010 (UTC)

Suggestion

Also the File:Brothers in misfortune.jpg should be renamed, maybe at the same time? Adding them to a Category: Bolshevik Russian famine 1921-1923 might be the correct approach . Lotje (talk) 17:45, 20 December 2010 (UTC)

Erm, nope. This image needs to be renamed back to what it was Mark (talk) 11:56, 21 December 2010 (UTC)

Correct decription

I suggest for editors to prove their own opinion about image description - I've suggested several scholar sources earler [68] and [69]

Misuse of the 1921-1923 photodocuments (mostly without any captions, or references to sources) to depict the tragedy of 1932-1933 is becoming increasingly popular - see [70]. I wait for recent scholar evidence about image in question. Thank youJo0doe (talk) 15:52, 16 September 2011 (UTC)

The sources you link to just state that sometimes photographs from the 1920-21 famine are presented alongside authentic ones to depict the Holodomor. And? There's nothing in the sources which would suggest that this particular photo is from the 1920-21 famine. This photo appears to be one of the authentic ones. One of the sources you provide, after noting the misuse of the Volga famine photos then states 'most authentic photos can be found here' and then links to [71].

Ok, now this has been explained to you like, what, ten times? Twenty? And your continued refusal to acknowledge this is part of the reason you got banned from en-wiki. So you really should drop it.Volunteer Marek (talk) 14:49, 17 September 2011 (UTC)

And to repeat something that has already been said at least a dozen times, according to the very sources Jo0doe provides, this particular photo is from the cardinal Theodor Innitzer collection, which, according to the very sources Jo0doe provides, is one of the few collections of photos which are actually authentic. "Disputed" - maybe, but anything can be "disputed" by someone somewhere for ever.Volunteer Marek (talk) 16:29, 17 September 2011 (UTC)

• page 49 clerly indicate that specific source - namely "Famine-Genocide in Ukraine..." used pictures from 1920s Famine - Footnote 16. Holodomor 1932-1933 rokiv v Ukraїni: Dokumenty i materialy, compiled by Ruslan Pyrih (Kyiv: Vydavnychyi dim “Kyievo-Mohylians′ka akademiia,” 2007). Note in particular the flyleaf and spine of the book (with photos from the period of the 1921-1923 famine) - pictures with image in question given at topic above. Could you cite a source which suggest link to http://www.archives.gov.ua/Sections/Famine/photos.php?35 and rest http://www.archives.gov.ua/Sections/Famine/photos.php?28 etc http://www.garethjones.org/soviet_articles/thomas_walker/thomas_walker_images.htm as authentic? Source http://www.harrimaninstitute.org/MEDIA/01292.pdf suggest "photos taken by Alexander Wienerberger" but not particular photo is from the cardinal Theodor Innitzer collection. --Jo0doe (talk) 18:07, 19 September 2011 (UTC)

There is only a finite number of ways of saying the same thing, and you're pretty much exhausting all of them. Yes, page 49 says that there are photos out there which are of the 1920s famine but which have been used as representing the 32/33 Ukrainian famine. It doesn't say anything about this particular photo. This has been already explained - you seem to think that just because *some* photos aren't accurate, this means that *all*, including this one, photos are not accurate. This is simply incorrect and a basic logical fallacy. In regard to Could you cite a source which suggest... - the thing is that the very source you provided above states that "the authentic images" are located at the very addresses (the first two) you are asking about. So in fact you have already cited a source which suggest the very thing you are asking a citation for. So this is already sourced.

Now, like I said, this is the tenth or so time that this issue is being discussed. This has been said and pointed out over and over again. And yet you keep at it.Volunteer Marek (talk) 01:46, 20 September 2011 (UTC)

Cut off one forum, and he'll find another.... ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 02:09, 20 September 2011 (UTC)

• I again ask you to carefully read Note 16 from given source and find sentence with Ruslan Pyrih ... photos from the period of the 1921-1923 famine - which clearly http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:2007ff.jpg match with image in question. Could you suggest a source which suggest for mentioned image as taken in 1933 and in Ukraine (note http://www.archives.gov.ua/Sections/Famine/photos.php?35 - does not provide such description - instead like for instance given for http://www.archives.gov.ua/Sections/Famine/photos.php?3))? Thank youJo0doe (talk) 17:08, 20 September 2011 (UTC)

Description page locked

I have locked the description page due to recent edit warring, with the term of lock being 1 week. Discussion on the image needs to occur.

If it is disputed that the file is free, it should be taken for discussion at Commons:CFD. If it is the description of the photo which is disputed, then {{Fact disputed}} can be added to the page. If the copyright is disputed {{Disputed}} can be added (i.e. is it {{PD-Ukraine}})? People need to tell us what is being disputed here, so that anything that needs to be fixed can be. {{Editprotected}} can be used to request any edits to be made, or a message can be left on my talk page. I would also suggest getting wider outside opinion on this. Commons:Disputes_noticeboard can be utilised for instance. Civil discussion needs to occur, and please remember that Commons has the same policy as Wikipedia in relation to civility and personal attacks. I won't hesitate to block any editor who breaches these policies. Discuss the content and not editors. Contact me on my talk page if any assistance is needed, or if anyone has any questions relating to the above. russavia (talk) 15:33, 17 September 2011 (UTC)

Is there also an "involved" policy on Commons like on Wikipedia?Volunteer Marek (talk) 15:58, 17 September 2011 (UTC)

I am not involved on Commons in any way, shape or form in relation to this image, nor in relation to any editors, nor in relation to any underlying disputes relating to famines in Russia or Ukraine on any other Wikipedia project. My only actions on this image have been to move it to a neutral name, given the dispute amongst editors. And I have locked it due to edit warring over the description and the like. Now, please discuss the dispute with other editors, and follow instructions on how to request edits to be made to the description and the like, and this will be attended to in due course either by myself or another administrator, after discussion has been reviewed. I also suggest that all editors read WP:MELLOW. russavia (talk) 16:24, 17 September 2011 (UTC)

(ec) And just to be crystal clear here, my first edit on this image was Sept 9, 4:38 [72]. You showed up afterward on Sept 14 13:40 [73].Volunteer Marek (talk) 16:25, 17 September 2011 (UTC)

Re - I don't have a problem with you moving the page (that was actually needed), or even protecting it. I do have a problem with you threatening some people you are very clearly "involved" with (to an extent that you have an interaction ban with on en-wiki) - namely, me - with blocks. But sure, I'll mellow.Volunteer Marek (talk) 16:27, 17 September 2011 (UTC)

(ec)Volunteer Marek, please understand this. I am active on Commons doing administrative work, on copyright violations, attending to speedy deletion requests, closing deletion discussions and other administrative functions. I also look at from time to time on images from the former Soviet Union. The reason for this is that {{PD-Ukraine}} is often utilised on images to skirt copyright issues, for example images from Category:Holodomor---that I have made an action on this image does not make me involved in relation to the subject, nor with any user. Additionally, no-one is, nor have they, been threatened with anything by myself. I have, however, reminded ALL users to refrain from being incivil...Commons:MELLOW is a great thing to remember, as you have noted. It wasn't directed at yourself, nor to any user in particular, but am putting it out there for everyone to be civil to each other. russavia (talk) 17:09, 17 September 2011 (UTC)

Note on what is needed

So that all interested parties know what is needed for there to be any changes to the image description, I will lay this out for all involved. I also urge any other administrator to take this into account if attending to any request.

1. What is the date of publication?
2. Where was it first published?
3. Who is the author of the photo? -- as the description stands at this moment this source states that the photo is from the collection of en:Theodor Innitzer.
4. {{PD-Ukraine}} likely does not apply, if Innitzer is the author. A proper licencing tag needs to be found.
5. Once all of that is found, a proper description can be written.

Also, information needs to be limited to this image, and this image only. I am familiar with controversies relating to alleged or real use of photos from Russian famine to represent Holodomor. That overall topic is somewhat irrelevant here, and such debate will likely be ignored in its entireity. Work together to get this information and use {{Editprotected}} to request changes to be made. My talk page is available if anyone has any questions on this russavia (talk) 17:18, 17 September 2011 (UTC)

Still no source for 1933

This one was published in 2003, original - whole image - appeared in 1922. Author - someone from "Nansen team"Jo0doe (talk) 17:11, 20 September 2011 (UTC)

Source for any of this?Volunteer Marek (talk) 20:08, 22 September 2011 (UTC)

By date of publication, on Commons this refers to the date of first publication, as it is this date which will determine its copyright status. And where was it first published? And who is the author of the work? Either side needs to present evidence of such, otherwise this could indeed be a candidate for deletion because of uncertain status. Refer to COM:PRP. Work it out, provide some evidence, and then changes can be made. I'm taking this off my watchlist, so I won't be seeing discussion here, so another admin will likely attend to any edit protect request. russavia (talk) 20:58, 22 September 2011 (UTC)

• I'll try to find of archival item which allow "to be copied" - only one knowing to me allowed "to see" only due the fragile nature.

Jo0doe (talk) 16:59, 23 September 2011 (UTC)

Per http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Famine_victim_boy_1922.jpg and http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:2007fp.jpg and per http://www.harrimaninstitute.org/MEDIA/01292.pdf - "the period of the 1921-1923 famine" at "Soviet Russia"). Thanks Jo0doe (talk) 16:31, 11 November 2011 (UTC)

Ok, this is actually ridiculous. First off, I have no idea what you are trying to do with the first photo. If you are trying to say that the child in that photo is the same as this one, that is pure OR. The second photo says "1933 р." on it. Oops. Great find! The third source says "Most of the authentic photos are presented in a special section of the web-portal of the State Committee on Archives of Ukraine: http://www.archives.gov.ua/Sections/Famine/photos.php." What is the source for this photo? Oh, that's right: http://www.archives.gov.ua/Sections/Famine/photos.php?35. Good job, you have fallen on your own sword. ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 18:16, 12 November 2011 (UTC)

So...

... Here is the deal: The file is now protected without a expiration date. So you people can forget things like this. So, or you people prove the file is not a copyvio, or I will personally delete it in January (2 months is more than time to find a source or prove of copyvio). russavia might be involved and can't act as an adm, but I'm not and I have plenty of time to delete copyvio and block users who do edit wars. Béria Lima ^msg 13:14, 14 November 2011 (UTC)

Why in the world would this be a copyvio. Beria?Volunteer Marek (talk)

And um, in regard to "things like" this, the fact that there are something like ... six, maybe seven or eight, different people who are undoing the edits of one single person, Jo0doe, and half of them are saying 'stop it Jo0doe, this is what got you perma banned from multiple other projects" (en-wiki, ru-wiki etc.) - which shows that they are familiar with the user in question and his behavior - maybe should make you pause and think "hmm, maybe this is just one person causing trouble and six, seven or eight different people are undoing that trouble". Maybe it's as simple as blocking the person who's been banned on a few other Wikimedia projects for this kind of behavior rather getting nasty with the other six, seven or eight other people. But I'm not sure, ask Russavia, he's familiar with the situation and I'm sure he can update you.Volunteer Marek (talk) 05:09, 15 November 2011 (UTC)

Btw, the source and the author have already been provided above.Volunteer Marek (talk) 18:39, 15 November 2011 (UTC)

The source yes, but the author no. It is unclear, whether the author is unknown, and if so, whether the photo from a personal collection of cardinal Innitzer could be freely reproduced when less than 70 years passed after his death. Also, since the original publication wasn't made in Ukraine, it is likely that Ukrainian license doesn't fit. Greyhood (talk) 14:31, 16 November 2011 (UTC)

See the Pausing for breath section above where JackLee (not somebody involved in this controversy, AFAICT) says:

If the photographer is unknown and cannot be identified with due diligence, then the copyright in the photograph expires 70 years from the date when it was first published. We'd have to know this date to establish accurately if the copyright has expired, but I'm prepared to accept that an anonymous photograph published no later than 31 December 1939 is now in the public domain. I'm happy to be corrected on this by another editor..

and: #Replace "{{PD-Ukraine}}" with "{{PD-anon-70}}".

I agree that the Ukraine-pd tag is inappropriate. I don't know why Mark never bothered replacing it but it should've been done, and would be done now or recently if the article didn't keep getting protected on account of one troublesome editor.Volunteer Marek (talk) 19:48, 16 November 2011 (UTC)

Also, be aware that this photo was nominated for deletion previously (probably by Jo0doe using an IP account) and the result was keep, [74]. You'll note Alex Bakharev, who can't be accused of any kind of bias here, voting "keep" (though with a somewhat incorrect rationale).

I don't know what kind of nonsense Russavia told to Beria Lima but there's simply no reason for unilaterally deleting this photo.Volunteer Marek (talk) 20:15, 16 November 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for the explanation. I'm not proposing deletion or expressing my position on deletion, I just try to resolve unclear points about the copyright status. I've already seen some good and free images deleted only because they had a wrong copyright license, so this is a serious issue.

And please, do not assume bad faith in admins here - it is quite obvious that there are some issues to be fixed with the description and licensing of this image, and admins are just doing their job. Greyhood (talk) 22:47, 16 November 2011 (UTC)

Oh, I'm not assuming bad faithed toward adminS. Not at all.Volunteer Marek (talk) 23:32, 16 November 2011 (UTC)

If editors would like some help to establish the copyright status of this file, as I mentioned above, my talk page is available to request that help. Copyright is not a simple "throw a dart" and hope for the best operation. Fortunately modern-era publications are easier to establish copyright for, but unfortunately some-older works are harder to establish, and copyright isn't always able to be determined based upon age alone. If editors are happy to be COM:MELLOW, I am happy to assist with this. russavia (talk) 13:09, 17 November 2011 (UTC)

One more time, see the statement by JackLee above. All that needs to be done is for the article to be unprotected, and the "{{PD-Ukraine}}" tag simply replaced by the "{{PD-anon-70}}".Volunteer Marek (talk) 23:34, 17 November 2011 (UTC)

Wait. On a closer look, I see no indication that this photo indeed was published more than 70 years ago. The source refers to a 2003 publication. Thus {{PD-anon-70}} might also not fit the case.

It looks like examining the copyright status of the image in that modern publication is the only way to determine the proper license here. So I'd propose to heed Russavia's offer for assistance above. GreyHood ^Talk 13:26, 18 November 2011 (UTC)

It was RE-published in 2003. Per Boriak, it was originally published in the 30's. I believe another source gave this publication [75] as the source. If someone's near Milwaukee, University of Wisconsin has the book though it is non-circulating as is often with documents, primary sources and photographs, otherwise I could order it through ILL. Volunteer Marek (talk) 17:33, 18 November 2011 (UTC)

Most vs All

As you can check – at link suggested for text Most of the authentic photos are presented in a special section of the web-portal of the State Committee on Archives of Ukraine:http://www.archives.gov.ua/Sections/Famine/photos.php

given links for 135 photos, were images from 38 till 135 provided by Ukrainian State Photo and Kino Archive which kept from 1930s at Soviet Archives and images (##1- 23)provided in 2000s by head of research center on Ukrainian people's genocide Mr.V.Marochko

• ## images 24-30 derived from Canadian magazine "Forum" № 54 published in 1983 .
• ## - images 32-38 derived from Famine – Genocide in Ukraine, 1932–1933. Western Archives, testimonies and new research/ Ed. by Ws.W. Isajiw. – Toronto: Ukrainian Canadian Research and Documentation Centre, 2003.

35. Репродукція з Famine-Genocide in Ukraine, 1932-1933: Western Archives, Testimonies and New Research / Edited by Wsevolod W. Isajiw. - Toronto: Ukrainian Canadian Research and Documentation Centre, Toronto, 2003. Фото з Колекції Кардинала Теодора Інніцира, (Архів Віденської Дієцзії) Од. зберігання 0-000004

There no text which claim over

• it taken in Ukraine
• it taken 1933
• the child depicted on it is a victim of Famine

Like for instance given at description given for images ##1-24 http://www.archives.gov.ua/Sections/Famine/photos.php?1 http://www.archives.gov.ua/Sections/Famine/photos.php?2 http://www.archives.gov.ua/Sections/Famine/photos.php?3 http://www.archives.gov.ua/Sections/Famine/photos.php?4 http://www.archives.gov.ua/Sections/Famine/photos.php?5 (i.e. "taken in 1933", "taken in Ukraine")

Per Boriak conclusion, mentioned above publication (Famine – Genocide …) from which actually picture was derived contains images from 1921 Famine. Again when it appeared at first print of Pyrig, Ruslan book , Boriak again noted as. Holodomor 1932-1933 rokiv v Ukraїni: Dokumenty i materialy, compiled by Ruslan Pyrih (Kyiv: Vydavnychyi dim “Kyievo-Mohylians′ka akademiia,” 2007). Note in particular the flyleaf and spine of the book (with photos from the period of the 1921-1923).

I've provided capture from book in question with images described by scholar as a "photos from the period of the 1921-1923 famine " above. http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File_talk:Child_affected_by_malnutrition.jpg#Ruslan_Pyrih_rejects_photo.21

I've made several time an inquiry about source for text about "1933", "Holodomor" and "Ukraine" – no one from opponent suggest a source for it yet.

That's why actually I've try to fix description to correct – as I've done for several files incorrectly described. Actually, As far as file in question bear a copyright protection notice – see small letters at bottom http://www.archives.gov.ua/Sections/Famine/Images/0-000004.jpg - and first proven time of it appearance for public (publication) given as 2003 – per Commons rules it must be deleted (untill someone can suggest a reliable source which describe image in question as taken in 1930s) . ThanksJo0doe (talk) 15:54, 18 November 2011 (UTC)

Note: I hope noone will claim for file http://www.archives.gov.ua/Sections/Famine/photos.php?128 description as "Holodomor" and "1933" simply because it presented in a special section of the web-portal of the State Committee on Archives of Ukraine:http://www.archives.gov.ua/Sections/Famine/photos.phpJo0doe (talk) 15:54, 18 November 2011 (UTC)

This is simply a re-hash of things you've already said. Things which were either shown to be not true or irrelevant. How many times are you going to repeat the same thing over and over and over again?Volunteer Marek (talk) 17:35, 18 November 2011 (UTC)

Could you please suggest were Boriak conclusion shown to be not true or irrelevant? And a description for 1933 and Holodomor at http://www.archives.gov.ua/Sections/Famine/photos.php?35 ThanksJo0doe (talk) 18:08, 18 November 2011 (UTC)

By this comment on en wiki Volunteer Marek has convinced me that Boriak supports the authenticity of the images on the Ukrainian archive site (On page 24 Boriak lists the sources of existing authentic photos (1st para). He then has a footnote which says: "Most of the authentic photos are presented in a special section of the web-portal of the State Committee on Archives of Ukraine).

However, now I must agree this may mean only that this is an authentic photo from the late 1920s or the early 1930s. The description on the site doesn't say it is 1933 (and not, say, 1932), doesn't say it is from the 1932-1933 hunger (the section of the site is called Контекст трагедії (1929-1933): офіційні фотодокументи translated as "The context of the tragedy (1929-1933: official photodocuments)"), nor does it say that the child is a "victim" (and not just some undernourished child from the era of collectivisation). I'd agree only with the suggestion that it the photo related to Ukraine since it is placed on the Ukrainian website and reproduced in the books about Ukraine, but still I'd not be 100% sure about that.

It seems so far there is not enough evidence to say the image depicts the hunger of 1932-1933 or even 1933 in particular. Perhaps examining the caption and the usage of image in what is supposed to be the original publication could give some more details (note that the title of the book Hungersnot: Authentische Dokumente über das Massensterben in der Sowjetunion doesn't speak about Ukraine in particular or about 1932-33, but rather about mass deaths in the Soviet Union in general). GreyHood ^Talk 18:40, 18 November 2011 (UTC)