File talk:Historical map of the Rus, 1054-1240.gif

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Move request

[edit]

@GPinkerton and Зайцев Руслан Викторович: I propose this file be renamed to "File:Historical map of the Rus, 1054-1240.gif", as the map clearly states "Русь"(Rus) and not "Россия" (Russia) or "Русский" (Russian). Also, the current title is grammatically incorrect. The user Зайцев Руслан Викторович has opposed my move request numerous time, arguing that the map represents Russia. Veverve (talk) 20:10, 6 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Why have I been pinged? GPinkerton (talk) 22:37, 6 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@GPinkerton: well, I and Зайцев Руслан Викторович were arguing, so I pinged you hoping you could provide an opinion from a third party's point of view. Veverve (talk) 22:42, 6 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I have no interest in this discussion. GPinkerton (talk) 22:44, 6 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@Чръный человек: could you give your input? Veverve (talk) 07:39, 7 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The map named "Русь в удельное время. 1054-1240" (Russia/Rus/Ruthenia in appanage time. 1054-1240). ~ Чръный человек (talk) 10:27, 7 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Русь, это русская земля и есть Россия. Зайцев Руслан Викторович (talk) 13:04, 7 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@Чръный человек: Thanks for your input. I have tried to make the same point as you, but as you can seen it seems there is attempts at POV-pushing on WCommons to move images of the Kievan Rus' to the name "Russia". Veverve (talk) 13:20, 7 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The map is from the educational Atlas of RUSSIAN ("Русской") history (1910), therefore the file name is quite legitimate.--Semenov.m7 (talk) 09:18, 7 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Russian History is of course going to talk about the Rus', but the Rus' is not Russia. Veverve (talk) 13:11, 7 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Русь, это русская земля и есть Россия[1]. Зайцев Руслан Викторович (talk) 13:19, 7 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
This is the equivalent of taking File:Map France 1477-fr.svg and naming it "Map of Luxembourg". The title of the map is clearly "Rus' ", a term used for the late-medieval federation in Eastern Europe, this should be enough to settle all debates.
As for the general point, Russia is another entity different from the Rus', the same way w:Gran Colombia and w:Venezuela are different entities. Veverve (talk) 13:37, 7 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Русь = Россия Зайцев Руслан Викторович (talk) 13:48, 7 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The term "Russia" did not exist at the time, it is a name forged in the 18th century. The English language distinguishes between the Rus'/Kievan Rus', Ruthenia, and Russia. Either the name of the file is kept in English and therefore it is moved to "File:Historical map of the Rus, 1054-1240.gif", or the file's name is moved to its Russian name as given in the image which is "Русь в удельное время. 1054-1240" Veverve (talk) 18:47, 10 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Впер­вые назв. «Ро­сия» на греч. яз. (‘Ρωσία ) ис­поль­зо­ва­но ви­зант. имп. Кон­стан­ти­ном VII Баг­ря­но­род­ным в трак­та­те «Об управ­ле­нии им­пе­ри­ей» (сер. 9 в.) для обо­зна­че­ния Древ­не­рус­ско­го го­су­дар­ст­ва[2]. ru:Большая российская энциклопедия. Зайцев Руслан Викторович (talk) 13:43, 11 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
1) "Древ­не­рус­ско­го" not "древнерусский". w:ru:Об управлении империей even has an hyperlink on the Rus' people and not Russians or Russia.
2) In any case, the Duchy of Moscow, the Kievan Rus' and Russia are different entities in English (and I would wager even in Russian). Veverve (talk) 14:45, 11 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Русские земли - Rus land. Зайцев Руслан Викторович (talk) 15:09, 12 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
There is a kind of problem in that. Russian language indeed uses the same adjective for things related to Rus' and things related to modern ethnic Russians and Russian language - русский. In a sense, it is similar to difficulties in translating русский and российский to English - both translate to "Russian" but mean different things: one related to an East Slavic people and language (русский) and another - to a sovereign state (российский). So, this can't be an argument in favor of your position. Seryo93 (talk) 15:01, 29 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Sneeuwschaap: your file move was reverted by User:Semenov.m7 who stated: The map is from the educational Atlas of RUSSIAN history (1910), therefore the file name is quite legitimate. There is no good reason to change the name (an argument I had already refuted). Veverve (talk) 18:18, 27 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Semenov.m7, "map of Russian" is a meaningless set of words. Sneeuwschaap (talk) 19:26, 27 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Sneeuwschaap, "historical map of Russian" is a very meaningful expression. --Semenov.m7 (talk) 19:40, 27 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
"historical map of Russian" = "историческая карта российского". Хотя бы уж Russia тогда, но не оставлять грамматическую ошибку в названии файла. Michgrig (talk) 21:29, 27 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Почему Russia? На подписи — "Русь в удельное время 1054—1240". Sneeuwschaap (talk) 21:43, 27 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
en:wikt:Russian#Noun. Semenov.m7, how do you propose to understand your "historical map of Russian"? "Историческая карта россиянина", "Историческая карта русского", "Историческая карта русской кошки" or "Историческая карта русского языка"? The argument about "Atlas of RUSSIAN history" is entirely irrelevant, we discuss the image and not the atlas. Sneeuwschaap (talk) 21:43, 27 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
No, it is not. In English, an adjective cannot be used as a noun (substantive). Veverve (talk) 00:59, 28 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Renamed. The grammatical inaccuracy has been overcome.--Semenov.m7 (talk) 08:04, 28 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Semenov.m7, where is "Russia" taken from, if the caption clearly states "Русь"? Sneeuwschaap (talk) 12:57, 28 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Map published in «Учебный Атлас по Русской Истории». СПб. 1910 and is a historical map of Russia. --Semenov.m7 (talk) 16:42, 28 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
and is a historical map of Russia then why is it not called as such on the image?
Sneeuwschaap and I believe the map should be renamed to "File:Historical map of the Rus', 1054-1240.gif"; we also believe µthe "Historical map of Russia, 1054-1240.gif" and "Historical map of Russian, 1054-1240.gif" redirects should be deleted. Therefore, it appears we have a consensus. Veverve (talk) 17:47, 28 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Since the user provides no arguments except multiple repeating of irrelevant one, I see no possibilities for constructive dialogue. It is the same thing which Зайцев Руслан Викторович did, so, I wrote on COM:AN/U. Sneeuwschaap (talk) 18:06, 28 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
На русском трудно писать? Историю России обсуждаете. Зайцев Руслан Викторович (talk) 03:10, 29 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
A country being in a book called History of Russia does not mean it is necessarilu Russia. For instance, it can be Japan, Khazakstan, or the Kievan Rus'. Veverve (talk) 07:34, 29 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
это обязательно Россия. Зайцев Руслан Викторович (talk) 07:59, 29 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
It is definetely the Duchy of Moscow and other duchies whose names are indicated on the map (duchy of Kiyv, etc.) which together form the Kievan Rus'. The map is even in Category:Maps of Rus principalities. Veverve (talk) 10:24, 29 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Совершенно необязательно. В Большой российской энциклопедии есть карта Японии, но, как Вы понимаете, это не даёт оснований называть Японию российской территорией. Seryo93 (talk) 15:08, 29 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Semenov.m7: has reverted @Sneeuwschaap: 's page move. the I am getting tired of the POV-pushing for this image. I think the users need to be taken to Commons:Administrators' noticeboard. Users seem to be en:WP:STONEWALLING without giving any real argument. Veverve (talk) 22:25, 16 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, it is pure POV-pushing. I wrote to Administrators' noticeboard again. Sneeuwschaap (talk) 22:41, 16 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
To the best of my understanding on Commons files are suppose to be renamed if the title is misleading. In this case "Russia" is technically incorrect, but everybody will understand what the actual map shows. If somebody would have a map of Russia in 1919, I would understand that they mean Soviet Russia. If there would be a map of Russia in 1921, I would understand that they mean RSFSR (as an independent country). And from 1922 to 1991 they mean RSFSR as a republic in the Soviet Union. I would propose to keep the file name as it was during the upload and add some sort of template on maps of Rus to state that 3 contemporary countries are within that territory: Belarus, Russia, Ukraine (in alphabetical order). ℺ Gone Postal (〠 ✉ • ✍ ⏿) 04:10, 21 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
User Semenov.m7 several times changed precise name (Rus') into "technically incorrect, but everybody will understand" name (Russia) having no arguments at all. He obstructs correcting of his incorrectness. It is pure political POV pushing, that's why we should not tolerate this. Sneeuwschaap (talk) 14:27, 21 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Perhaps I am missing something. What was the name of the file at the time of upload? ℺ Gone Postal (〠 ✉ • ✍ ⏿) 14:34, 21 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Name of the file at the time of upload does not matter. The user repeatedly obstructs correcting of his incorrectness despite having no arguments and despite argumented objections of several users here and in ru-wiki. That's what matters. Sneeuwschaap (talk) 14:49, 21 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
You are blatantly misrepresenting the policy. Russian Wikipedia has nothing to do with it. Whatever name was used at the time of the upload should be kept. ℺ Gone Postal (〠 ✉ • ✍ ⏿) 19:54, 23 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
understand what the actual map shows: no, the Kievan Rus is Russia the same way the Byzantine empire is Greece.
Whatever name was used at the time of the upload should be kept. On what ground? The first name was either the grammatically incorrect "of Russian" (very first name of the file) or the blatantly misleading "of Russia" (second name that lasted more than a few days). Veverve (talk) 21:06, 23 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
There is no "ground" to keep the name, the "ground" is needed to rename a file. Commons:File renaming mentions 6 criteria to rename the file. No criteria fits. The closest are #3, but the word "obvious" does not apply here, there is nothing obvious about the naming convention of countries when contemporary names are used to describe a historical location; and #4, but there are no templates that look for maps of historical countries. If somebody would upload a file "Vegetables on a table.jpeg" where tomatoes are shown, it would be inappropriate to rename it to "Fruit on a table.jpeg" even though it is technically more correct. ℺ Gone Postal (〠 ✉ • ✍ ⏿) 22:30, 23 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Firstly, the file was several times renamed into the incorrect name without any "ground". Except ridiculous one which was disproved. Secondly, the word "obvious" does apply here, because Ancient Rus' and Russia are universally accepted different entities. The map itself is captioned "Rus'" (Русь), not "Russia". Sneeuwschaap (talk) 01:09, 24 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@Veverve Nobody in its full capacities would rename a map of the Byzantine empire as a "map of Greece". It's historically inaccurate, and misleading. The same applies here. In any case, this map has a legend, and it is this one that has to be maintained (in Cyrillic alphabet if there is no consensus on the English translation).Ruthven (msg) 15:18, 24 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
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