File talk:Libyan Uprising.svg/Archive 5

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Archive This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

Brega to Gaddafi

I belive Brega shouldn't be blue anymore but green, since it has been confirmed by the rebels themselves that they had been holding positions 20 kilometers from the town since the battle ended a week ago [1], were only on the eastern and southern aproach to the town, the west is still an open supply route for the loyalists (so the town is not surrounded), there are over 1,000 loyalists in the town (and not 300 as the rebels claimed initialy), the top rebel commander commanding the front there has been killed, and following his death the rebels have retreated today an additional 10 kilometers from the town [2]. So in essence they are 30 kilometers from the town now, only 10 kilometers closer than they were before the battle. All the information has come directly from rebel commanders on the frontline. EkoGraf (talk) 23:06, 28 July 2011 (UTC)

✓ Done. Also, I'm putting Zliten back to uncontested Gaddhafi, as once again it appears the news media jumped the gun; the most recent report I read said the front lines were somewhere right in the middle of the two cities. Magog the Ogre (talk) 00:19, 29 July 2011 (UTC)

Latest reports show rebels taking Suq-al-Thulata, that is 7 km from the center of Zliten. Should be blue I think. For some perspective, here's a map:

The reports of the taking of Thulata are from several weeks ago. Late last week it emerged that the loyalists cut-off and surrounded the rebels in Thulata from the main rebel force in Dafniya and were bombarding them with tanks. There has been no word from those rebels since. I think we can conclude what happened to them. EkoGraf —Preceding comment was added at 02:04, 31 July 2011 (UTC)

If you can provide your source on that, then I will agree. The more reliable, the better; as we all know, reporting on this mini-war has been atrociously off. Magog the Ogre (talk) 03:38, 31 July 2011 (UTC)

The report you asked about the rebels being surrounded in Thulata [3]. EkoGraf —Preceding comment was added at 03:07, 2 August 2011 (UTC)

Umm al Aranib, Al Wigh, Tumu border crossing

Does anyone have any updates on these? They're all listed as rebel held, which is suspicious to me given advances in other cities nearby.

As a side note, this is one of the reservations I have about adding more locations, especially smaller ones. We have to keep them all up to date. Magog the Ogre (talk) 00:27, 29 July 2011 (UTC)

Agreed. They should be removed until we hear more about them, though I certainly support re-adding them if we do. I supported adding them (except the border post, which is uninhabited, often unmanned, and totally irrelevant.) on the assumption that they would help demonstrate where the front line was. However the fall of Qatrun raises doubts. Though. I'd suggest keeping Taraghin for the time being, since we know it's loyalist controlled, and a center of Qaddafi's forces. --Quintucket (talk) 01:07, 30 July 2011 (UTC)

There is not confirmation by "big" media. According to news about taken of Brega - I'm still waiting confirmation from both sides or from reliable source.
Some sources says: "Countries arround Libya are not interested in supporting rebels because lots of gun and criminal are using situation." Suply line from east Libya to south cities is very very thin and unstable. So it is strange to believe that huge number of rebels are crossed desert to fight there. Most of fightings in south may be local clashes and lots of gangsters attacking vilages. Both sides suffers in this case. —Preceding unsigned comment was added by (talk) 06:05, 29 July 2011 (UTC)

I think it will be safe to remove a couple of "presumably-rebel-controlled" villages from the map. I doubt we will ever hear about them (just like we never heard again of that tiny village in Nafusa mountains which refused to raise the rebels flag).--Rafy (talk) 19:42, 29 July 2011 (UTC)
Indeed, those villages are too tiny and might be too insignificant for inclusion in this map.
Proposal: It would be better to create a South Libyan front map like Tripolitanian front map and Gulf of Sirt front map for inclusion of those villages. -- 15:20, 30 July 2011 (UTC)
The issue is less of size and more of information; it doesn't matter so much the size of the village (we include the hamlet of Bin Jawad), but the amount of information that we can get about it. These villages are in the desert. Information flows extraordinarily poorly through the desert. We may never get any conclusive information about who controls them as a result. For this reason, the villages should be removed from here. I am going to oppose this proposal for the same reasons; we won't get definitive information about these towns either way. ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 16:14, 30 July 2011 (UTC)

✓ Done - I've removed the towns, as consensus seems to indicate they are not best for the map at this time. We may come to another agreement if we can get better information on some of these towns, but I don't anticipate that happening right now to be honest. Magog the Ogre (talk) 23:23, 30 July 2011 (UTC)

Knowns and unkowns in who controls what

I'd like it if the map was more informative about areas where the situation is unclear (which seems to be a lot of places).--Nogburt (talk) 07:48, 1 August 2011 (UTC)

I'm sorry to hear that; how can we help you specifically? Magog the Ogre (talk) 08:13, 1 August 2011 (UTC)

Fighting within Zliten- Change to Blue.

According to the alJazeera blog, the rebels have entered Zliten and are engaged in street-to-street combat. Link Link 2--Loro-rojo (talk) 23:54, 31 July 2011 (UTC)

the Guardian is reporting the same thing —Preceding unsigned comment was added by (talk) 20:07, 1 August 2011 (UTC)
It's already been changed to a blue outline. Magog the Ogre (talk) 20:43, 1 August 2011 (UTC)

blue outline means it is under assault but one side holds the city center from the looks of it the Rebels hold most, possibly all of the town (media coverage has been wrong before though so this could just be another false report) —Preceding unsigned comment was added by (talk) 21:18, 1 August 2011 (UTC)

Interesting that The Guardian states Zliten has been taken while Al Jazeera claims rebels are still in the eastern outskirts of the town. Support changing to fully blue until other sources confirm Zliten is under the control of either the Misratans or the Gaddafists. -Kudzu1 (talk) 00:10, 2 August 2011 (UTC)

Only the Guardian has so far reported that Zliten has fallen. No other international media has reported this. So I oppose changing to full blue but support leaving the blue ring, for now. EkoGraf —Preceding comment was added at 03:05, 2 August 2011 (UTC)

I support changing to Blue in light of the guardian article. The reason being is that blue means the situation is unclear. With the differing reports....The situation IS unclear. —Preceding unsigned comment was added by (talk) 04:35, 2 August 2011 (UTC)
New article but less detailed also supports rebel incursion [4] lithiumscream —Preceding unsigned comment was added by (talk) 05:01, 2 August 2011 (UTC)

Again, the situation would be unclear, and I would support a total blue, IF several media outlets were reporting the town had fallen while several reported at the same time that the town had not fallen. This is not the case here. We have only one media outlet, the Guardian, reporting the town has fallen. The Guardian is only one of hundreds if not thousands of international media outlets. All of the others, that would mean 99.9 percent, are reporting nothing about the fall of the town. So in essence the mass international media don't see anything unclear about the situation, they are all agreeing there is nothing to report. We can't base our edits only on one article. And an article that wasn't based on the reporters own testimony, but on what the rebels claimed to him and he relayed it into the article. As far as I know the rebels claimed 20 times by now to had captured Brega, which by now is clear was eather simple lying or a propaganda stunt on their side. So all of us should regard what the rebels claim as much unreliable as loyalist claims of Nescafe terrorists. XD That new article you added talks nothing about the fall of the city, it only says the insurgents made an incursion into the town, which had already been independently confirmed a few days ago but it was also confirmed that the insurgents pulled back from the town after a request by the towns citizens that they felt their presence would endanger them. In my personal opinion I think the insurgents are overblowing that limited incursion they made into the center of town and trying to portray it as a major breakthrough. If I remember correctly, after they made a breakthrough out of Misrata in mid-May they claimed in the same day to had reached to just 4 kilometers from Zliten and had destroyed all of Gaddafis brigades on the approach to Zliten. :) Now they are saying as of three days ago that they had just reached to 9 kilometers from the town, two and a half months after the previous claim. So no, the rebel claims are not reliable. Until a Reuters or BBC reporter taging along with the rebels is standing in the center of Zliten, that town can officialy be regarded as a loyalist-held town still. EkoGraf —Preceding comment was added at 06:20, 2 August 2011 (UTC)

"Until a Reuters or BBC reporter taging along with the rebels is standing in the center of Zliten, that town can officialy be regarded as a loyalist-held town still." If this discussion was about turning the town from green to brown I would agree with you. However, we are discussing going from green to blue. Yes the rebels are unreliable, So is Ghadafi. There are no recent articles documenting Ghadafi control of Zliten in the past few days. There are several reports of the rebels entering Zliten. The guardian article suggests almost complete control, others suggest far less. With multiple sources suggesting fighting and raids into Zliten I think turning it blue is reasonable, indicating the situation is unclear (hence blue). Sure hopefully in a few days it will become more clear. If we were to apply the burden of proof you're looking for we might as well turn Bengahzi blue in light of recent events. lithiumscream —Preceding unsigned comment was added by (talk) 07:23, 2 August 2011 (UTC)

As somebody say a week ago: "Blue is only if actual serious combat is occurring and the town is actually being contested." Not only shelling. Or "militaty cinetic movement". ;) After end of Misrata siege - every day I read the same news: "Rebels are now in control of Zliten." But.I repeat - but every time news after that are the same - Rebels told journalists: "We are advancing to Zliten, but retreating after grad bombardment." May be we need another indicator for this kind of activity. This is not siege, not taking control of area. This is only dogfight or "shoot and run". US general called it: "military cinetic action" . This is different king of action. Gangs in big US cities shoot each other from fast moving cars. But nobody says: They are going to take control of city.

—Preceding unsigned comment was added by (talk) 15:05, 2 August 2011 (UTC)

Ok, based on the multiple reports coming in today I concurre that the rebels have entered the town and a battle is on. However, it should still be blue ring because as far as I remember during the whole Battle of Misrata the town was not blue but it was brown with blue ring. This is the same situation only reversed where this time the rebels are the ones attacking a town. Again, it was previously agreed that full blue would be only if the situation is totaly unclear. The situation is now clear that rebels are attacking and trying to take control of a loyalist-held town. EkoGraf —Preceding comment was added at 17:49, 2 August 2011 (UTC)

I don't know if this will help but here- is an article by the bbc that states after a Gaddafi counter offensive it is unclear who holds the town —Preceding unsigned comment was added by (talk) 22:24, 2 August 2011 (UTC)

There are consistent report of fighting in the centre of the town, so it should be turned to fully blue. Just like Misrata was back in March.
P.S. please sign with 4 tildes. A time stamp is useful for those who want to follow the discussion. It also makes manual archiving easier.--Rafy (talk) 02:40, 3 August 2011 (UTC)

CNN, BBC and a bunch of other journalists got a tour of the city today and they reported no rebel activity in the city center and furthermore CNN said that they heared artillery duels a few kilometers east of the city, contradicting rebel reports that they entered it. So for now I am reverting back to green with blue ring. Sources are here [5][6][7]. Read them all carefully. EkoGraf (talk) 04:12, 5 August 2011 (UTC)

Brega (2)

There hasn't been a whole lot of news lately about Brega, but the last reports indicated that Rebels were at least engaging Gaddafi troops in the town, also reports of them demining parts of the town. I think the current colour for Brega should be green with a blue ring to indicate the control of the town in comparison to Rebel engagement in Brega. 19:02, 3 August 2011 (UTC)

Sounds legit. Last thing I read was that the town was in some kind of split possession. And why would they start combing the area for mines if don't have some sort of proper hold to it? Green with blue ring seems ok to me. Elllit (talk) 19:45, 4 August 2011 (UTC)

I heard that there was actually some street combat taking place there with a group of 45 rebels, and the rebels are slowly advancing towards it, so it should definitely be green with a blue outline, in my opinion.

P.S. Yahoo news also has some good articles under the middle east section. —Preceding unsigned comment was added by (talk) 20:43, 4 August 2011 (UTC)

The current reports put the rebels a full 20 kilometers east of the town. So no, the town isn't split. And in regards to that report that 45 rebels were in street combat in the town, that report stated that 45 rebels made a raid into the eastern part of the town (which the rebels previously claimed to had capture) and than withdrew quickly back over the frontline. They are not combing the town for mines, they are combing the road to the town. It's all in the most up-to-date articles on the fighting there. And the current fighting is not on the level of a battle but on the level of skirmishes and raids, big difference. Also, a blue ring would suggest the town being surrounded, the rebels are east and partialy south of the town, while all of the other sides are covered by loyalists. So until there is a new attack on the town I don't see the point of a blue ring. EkoGraf —Preceding comment was added at 04:07, 5 August 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for the clarification. So it's back to the situation before the rebel attack, but 20km further towards Brega. Well, then a blue ring doesn't make sense. Btw: The blue ring is not supposed to indicate "surrounded" but rather "under attack". At least this is how it was used before. Elllit (talk) 09:14, 5 August 2011 (UTC)

Yes I agree actualy, you are right, my bad, ring should indicate under attack, but for now there seems to be no attack to take the city. If we would consider the raids and skirmishes as the town being under attack than Misrata and Ajdabiya should also be with blue ring because of the constant rocket attacks. EkoGraf —Preceding comment was added at 19:14, 5 August 2011 (UTC)

BBC is reporting rebels are again assaulting Brega: [8] -Kudzu1 (talk) 21:48, 6 August 2011 (UTC)

Yahoo News is reporting the same thing. [9] 15:24, 8 August 2011 (UTC)

PROOF that Brega is under attack! [10] 20:50, 9 August 2011 (UTC)

Reliable information + disclaimer

At this point, given the amount of difficulty we've had with keeping up with events on the ground, I think we should add a large disclaimer to the top explaining that the information may not be correct or up to date. I am not usually a fan of disclaimers, but I think this is an unusual circumstance. To explain:

  • Most of the information appears to be coming from rebels. As such, advancements by Gaddafi's forces have gone underreported. For example, when the rebels had completely withdrawn from Brega, it went totally unreported, and we had to infer it from other reports. Or we had information about a few towns being captured, but when it appeared they were taken back by government forces, it went unreported (or we didn't notice) - see #Umm al Aranib, Al Wigh, Tumu border crossing. It is unclear if this is because of a freer media in rebel territory or due to possible pro-rebel media bias - but in the end it doesn't matter, we should be cautious.
  • Even when we do have information, the people able and willing to edit the image are often behind by several hours at best, or a few days at worst. Thus, the numerous frantic pleas of new editors on this page to please update now!!
  • Much of the news coming even from the mainstream media has proven unreliable - cf. #Kufra/Al-Jawf -> Sudan, or cf. half of this talk page where the media jumped the gun based on an exaggerated rebel report. Magog the Ogre (talk) 22:39, 9 August 2011 (UTC)
I disagree on some points. For example fall of Qatrun to loyalist forces was announced by rebels themself. What was and is really happening in Brega is largely unknown and presented as such, for the time beeing we have to work with sources we have avaliable. And frankly you can´t compare Fezzan towns and hamlets to those in Tripolitania, internet and phone services are there (or rather were) much better than in middle of some godforsaken desert. As for "5 minutes ago it poped out on Retuters that rebel have taken crossroad nr. 216 150m from their previous position, why the heck it is not updated?" crew just ignore them. If they want to update the map so hardly they can do it themself. As for bad journalism, it happens here and there, Im pretty sure that that particular journalist from Guardian must look like an ass, however this map contains only major cities which are updated according to their color once that claim from one or second side of the conflict is independently confirmed by correspondets on the ground. Therefore I find it unncessary to add small towns and villages onto the map since their status can be sometimes questionable. Also I guess you were thinking about Msallata - from my point of view its bogus, there are no NATO strikes near the positions although NATO came and bombed the hell out of G troops on Zawiya-Tripoli road just hours after rebel strike groups have infiltrated the city and started fighting. --EllsworthSK (talk) 00:38, 10 August 2011 (UTC)
I believe that this map is fairly accurate, after all we can never be sure of anything specially when it's an ongoing military event. The more detailed ones might indeed require a disclaimer.--Rafy (talk) 12:05, 10 August 2011 (UTC)
Most of the information does not come from rebels but from journalists that report from the rebel controlled side. They have more freedom there and thus, the information flow is much better. An exception is Brega where journos don't seem to be allowed to go to the front line (danger, mines, etc.). From Gadaffi side there are just "managed tours" and the evening reports from bombings in Tripoli. Anyway, after the first weeks into the conflict we started to wait at least a day after some news popped up to overcome the fast changing and reverting of maps. That's why most editors hesitate a little with changes. For "unreliable" reports... well... nothing one can do about it pretty much. If the report says "xy claims" or "by yx accounts" its not proven. That's why I join in EllsworthSK's thought of the Msallata news cause it seems to come down to only one guy from the town. Finally, a disclaimer that the map is not accurate and manged in real-time wouldn't be wrong. Elllit (talk) 12:14, 10 August 2011 (UTC)
While I certainly agree that the news from Msallata is sketchy, I'd strongly caution against comparing it to Zawiya. Zawiya is a sizable city with great strategic importance (refineries), as well as much symbolic importance for the rebel cause and likely local support for the uprising. Of course NATO would "bomb the hell out of G troops" there. Msallata, on the other hand, is a smaller town located in the middle of an area that has been lukewarm towards the rebellion and which has little strategic importance for NATO to care about. Hell, there isn't even agreement as to what it should be called – Qusbat or Msallata. ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 04:46, 11 August 2011 (UTC)
There were similiar reports about Tarhuna from opposition sources weeks before this about Msallata, it was washed away few days later, when 100 percent confirmed news about liberation of Tarhuna from G forces were coming literally from every step, by tweep which is expat from Tarhuna and contaced his family there to verify these news. Only difference between Msallata and Tarhuna is that Msallata hit some newspapers while Tarhuna didnt. Besides Msallata is located on one of two roads which are bringind supplies to Zlitan loyalist units, taking it down would mean reroute supplies from Fezzan (meaning Algeria) from road of Beni Walid-Tarhouna-Msallata-Al Khums-Zliten through Tripoli, its strategic location is undeniable. If NATO survellance would locate large concentration of loyalist troops ammased on ourskirts of Msallata it would clearly strike them, yet no strike on Msallata or in its vicinity was reported during whole campaign. PS: Qasbat is G name of the city, he decided to rename it. No one really knows why, locals call it Msallata. --EllsworthSK (talk) 16:49, 11 August 2011 (UTC)
NATO knows that Msallata is as isolated as isolated can be in that area. Airstrikes to support any uprising there would be wasted. At least in Zawiya there was the hope that the population would join the rebels that infiltrated the city. Here is just one town 70km away from any hope of creating a real disturbance. ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 18:52, 11 August 2011 (UTC)


Since we an article for the clashes in Msallata i think we should considder having it on the map seeing as Wazen got on the map after it's battle got a page and Jalu got on the map for even less. 10:15, 10 August 2011 (UTC)

The info coming from there is still sketchy at best. Moreover, it's not an event that is making headlines.--Rafy (talk) 12:07, 10 August 2011 (UTC)
Also: the battles for Wazin came out to be significant. Elllit (talk) 12:17, 10 August 2011 (UTC)

Rebels claim Brega "liberated"

Here's the latest, just broke about 30 minutes ago: [11] -Kudzu1 (talk) 20:40, 11 August 2011 (UTC)

"The rebel claim could not be immediately verified."- this is from your article. Both sides of this war have exaggerated and lied about what they hold before. I say wait until more information comes in.MonteMiz (talk) 21:03, 11 August 2011 (UTC)

Also here- is a source saying at least the western half of the town is under Gaddafi control (although it says the east and south are liberated) all the articles on this issue cite the same rebel spokesman as their sole source MonteMiz (talk) 21:26, 11 August 2011 (UTC)

Yeah, it seems AP and some other sources got their wires crossed. My guess is that this spokesman said the city was partially liberated, Reuters and AJE reported it, and then he told AP it was fully liberated a couple hours later, but that's just a guess. Let's see how this develops - as I said, it's just a claim at this point. -Kudzu1 (talk) 21:31, 11 August 2011 (UTC)
As was already said, these claims so far were not verified by journalists. When they will be we will act accordingly to it. But not until than, we can wait a day or two till confirmation will pop out if this turns out to be true. --EllsworthSK (talk) 21:38, 11 August 2011 (UTC)

Brega in split possession, needs to be fully blue: [12] —Preceding unsigned comment was added by (talk) 15:27, 12 August 2011 (UTC)

Blue dot is for locations with unknown status. Blue ring is for locations under attack. Rebels attack, Loyalists defend. Thus, green dot + blue ring and the arrow. Elllit (talk) 19:32, 12 August 2011 (UTC)
Well, the arrow is on the other map, my fault. The rest is still valid ;) Elllit (talk) 19:33, 12 August 2011 (UTC)

Blue dot is also for "ongoing fighting" if the rebels are indeed in the eastern part of the city it should be totally blue, however I still have doubts as to if the rebels are in the town, I say wait at least another day or 2 MonteMiz (talk) 03:31, 13 August 2011 (UTC)

Oh, then I'm entirely wrong. I seem to not remember the meaning correctly. Sorry. Elllit (talk) 05:18, 13 August 2011 (UTC)
I disagree. In April, Loyalists had a good portion of Misrata, but Misrata was red with a blue ring, what means under attack. --Ave César Filito (talk) 02:13, 14 August 2011 (UTC)

Al- Zawiyah under attack- Change to Blue

According to alJazeera field reports, Az Zawiyah and Gharyan are under attack. The report says that there is fighting within the city of Al Zawiyah. 1 Loro-rojo (talk) 17:26, 13 August 2011 (UTC)

✓ Done as well as Aziziya.--Rafy (talk) 18:22, 13 August 2011 (UTC)
Reuters producer heading to Tripoli from Tunisia heard gunfire and was not allowed to pass Az Zawiya. [13] Also, AP reporter reports clashes. [14] May have to make it solid blue soon. Let's see how it plays out, though. Fovezer (talk) 18:37, 13 August 2011 (UTC)

Reports from different sources (mostly Twitter and facebook) are saying that the city is now mostly in rebel control, and loyalties have launched an offensive against the city. I know these reports aren't enough to warrant a change in the map, but they are a good indication of what is going on. It seems that Al-Zawiyah is about to fall to rebels (if it hasn't done so already) Loro-rojo (talk) 18:40, 13 August 2011 (UTC)

Libyan Rebels have secured the city. (On a personal note, well done, rebels!) :) —Preceding unsigned comment was added by (talk) 19:30, 13 August 2011 (UTC)

Zawiya should be fully blue. 23:08, 13 August 2011 (UTC)

  • Agreed.-- 00:05, 14 August 2011 (UTC)
  • Both Zawiya and Gharyan should be fully blue. Al Jazeera reports rebels control 70 percent of Zawiyah. —Preceding unsigned comment was added by (talk) 02:46, 14 August 2011 (UTC)
I've heard enough conflicting reports from CNN, etc. that I agree. I also agree with the government leader that this may be a "suicidal" move by the rebels[15] (or maybe not, even hopefully not... suicide is bad!). Both marked blue, as well as Az-zaziyah (sp), based simply on its location and File:Tripolitanian Front.svg. Magog the Ogre (talk) 05:47, 14 August 2011 (UTC)

Reuters has confirmed that rebels hold the city centre and that only sporadic gunfire can be heard. We may be changing this back to red soon (at long last). ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 09:09, 14 August 2011 (UTC)

Well, with this Reuters report from inside the city centre there is no other option than turning it to red. I'm not even sure wether a blue circle would be justifiable. -- 11:28, 14 August 2011 (UTC)
Reuters - "Rebel fighters told Reuters there were still forces loyal to Libyan leader Muammar Gaddafi in the town, including snipers who they said had positioned themselves on tall buildings. Bursts of artillery and machine gun fire could be heard. One rebel fighter said Gaddafi's forces were still in control of the oil refinery on the northern edge of Zawiyah -- a strategic target because it is the only one still functioning in western Libya and Gaddafi's forces depend on it for fuel." There is still fighting in some parts of Zawiyah. --Ave César Filito (talk) 13:09, 14 August 2011 (UTC)
Zawiya is still contested. This report from Al Jazeera states clearly theat the central parts of the city remain contested. It is the best to leave the circle blue for now. --Tingo Chu (talk) 13:30, 14 August 2011 (UTC)
Al Jazeera - The latest from Al Jazeera's Zeina Khodr in Az-Zawiyah is that mortars are landing close to the town's southern entrance, and that fighting is ongoing between rebel and pro-Gaddafi forces in some areas. The rebels have so far not been able to take the city centre, she reports. --Ave César Filito (talk) 14:23, 14 August 2011 (UTC)

Libyan rebels said they haven't secured the city yet, I'm for making the city brown with blue ring. 15:21, 14 August 2011 (UTC)

Give the dust time to settle. ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 15:27, 14 August 2011 (UTC)
Gharyan under attack: [16], I think that brown with blue ring is fitting for both Zawiya & Gharyan. And on a side note, I haven't heard about any major clashes in Al-Aziziya, so I think green with blue ring is fitting for it. 17:04, 14 August 2011 (UTC)

Gharyan 70% rebel controlled: [17] 17:19, 14 August 2011 (UTC)

Brown with blue ring doesn´t mean tahat the city is mostly in hands of the Rebels but there is still resistence of Loyalists. It means that Rebels have the city and that they´re attacked by Loyalists. I think both cities should be green with a blue ring. The cities were in hands of Gaddafi and they´re attacked by Rebels. --Ave César Filito (talk) 17:35, 14 August 2011 (UTC)
Just blue seems fine to me. The cities are no longer held by Gaddafi, nor are they fully held by the rebels. They're contested. I think Brega should probably be changed to blue as well now that rebels apparently occupy the residential parts of the city and are advancing into the industrial area.
Also, there is apparently fighting in Sabratha, which is Gaddafi-held: [18] -Kudzu1 (talk) 18:19, 14 August 2011 (UTC)

- gharyan and zawiyah should stay blue for now since blue means "ongoing fighting" and neither town is fully liberated (yet). I have yet to see any indications of rebels taking aziziya so it should probaly be changed to green with blue ring MonteMiz (talk) 18:24, 14 August 2011 (UTC)

I haven't even seen any credible reports that Aziziya is actively under attack... -Kudzu1 (talk) 18:28, 14 August 2011 (UTC)
I've placed Aziziyah back as uncontested, and I've put a blue ring around Sabratha. It is utterly silly to mark the whole city as unknown because of a report of two people crossing the border who talked about gunfire; I'm not even sure we should even mark it as blue ring. Magog the Ogre (talk) 22:33, 14 August 2011 (UTC)

Zawiyah is in rebel control. This is according to this article by Reuters. 1 Loro-rojo (talk) 14:28, 15 August 2011 (UTC)

Still pockets of fighting. see this report: [19] Elllit (talk) 15:01, 15 August 2011 (UTC)
It is my opinion that we should leave it as fully blue until we have confirmation that the entirety of the main city is in rebel control. Magog the Ogre (talk) 20:10, 16 August 2011 (UTC)
In my opinion we sould put the city standing for rebel control but under a blue ring. It appears that the rebels are everyday gaining parts of the city, if it's true then they are under control of most of it. There are no other news negaying that.-- 12:41, 17 August 2011 (UTC)
New (Aug 18, 2011 2:39pm GMT) Reuters report says 'rebels' now also control the refinery and there's no sign of any Gadaffi forces. Reported by a Reuters reporter inside the refinery. If there are no opposing reports the Zawiyah circle should go red for now. Report: WRAPUP 5-Libyan rebels seize oil refinery, eye Tripoli -Eric


Al Jazeera Arabic has reported from Sabratha twice now. [20][21] It is, at the very least, contested. Fovezer (talk) 22:49, 15 August 2011 (UTC)

Journalist eyewitness account confirms Sabratha was taken on Monday: [22] -Kudzu1 (talk) 01:19, 17 August 2011 (UTC)
Done Fovezer (talk) 03:35, 17 August 2011 (UTC)
That article indicates that Sabratha is not completely liberated. The same term "free" was used for Zawiyah and to the rebels it means they control some of the city. They even go on to explain that though it is free, it is not secure. We need a clear source that says that Sabratha is secure.
"Sabratha is now considered free." "Sadeg Allab, a spokesman for the Zawiyah local council, had just returned from a visit to his hometown. He reported that the road from the Zawiyah Brigade’s mountain camp on the coast is secured. But though Zawiyah is considered free, shelling from Tripoli claimed the lives of nine people Monday. Zawiyah is a spread out town of 25-30 square kilometers, he explains, and not all areas are equally secure." 07:45, 17 August 2011 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment was added by (talk)
Seriously, why remove the blue ring? In light of all the bad reports coming forth, please be more careful in updating. Magog the Ogre (talk) 12:27, 17 August 2011 (UTC)


Gharyan under attack, needs blue ring. [23] 14:18, 13 August 2011 (UTC)

There are already people telling Gharyan is liberated either: fully, partially, just a suburb or just a town before. The attack seems legit tho [24]. Elllit (talk) 15:55, 13 August 2011 (UTC)
AJE live report [25] Elllit (talk) 15:55, 13 August 2011 (UTC)
Reports today that Gharyan is securely under rebel control: [26], [27] -Kudzu1 (talk) 22:45, 15 August 2011 (UTC)

Change Gharyan to red please. No fighting in Gharyan, the rebels won full control. The Libyan gov does not even deny Gharyan fell. Rebels now claim to have liberated Mizdah to, and Gaddafi forces are currently located in the Assabah area. Zenithfel (talk) 02:14, 16 August 2011 (UTC)

Also, "On 16 August, governmental spokesman Mussa Ibrahim stated that governmental troops would soon retake Gharyan, implicitly supporting the rebel account that Gharyan had been taken.[28][29]". -- 17:43, 16 August 2011 (UTC)

Why are there two gharyan talks only separated by 2 sections? MonteMiz (talk) 18:37, 16 August 2011 (UTC)

Good point. I combined them. Elllit (talk) 18:52, 16 August 2011 (UTC)


I think we should change Misrata to blue as it seems its still under contest/not clear. See no one is denying nor confirming it. —Preceding unsigned comment was added by (talk) 12:19, 17 August 2011 (UTC)

No, the situation is very clear. Misrata is still firmly in rebel hands. That is based on a claim recently by Libyan State TV and Moussa Ibrahim, government spokesman. No reputable media source is even giving this silly claim the time of day, which is why you don't see any confirmation/denials. [30] Fovezer (talk) 12:51, 17 August 2011 (UTC)
That claim was almost hilarious until people started taking it seriously... ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 14:22, 17 August 2011 (UTC)

I'll keep an eye on the news for misrata. —Preceding unsigned comment was added by (talk) 15:08, 17 August 2011 (UTC)

Haha, don't expect to see anything ground-shaking. Misrata falling is as likely as Benghazi or Zintan falling. ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 16:13, 17 August 2011 (UTC)

The idea that misrata could fall while there are rebels in zawiyah is laughable, this is Gaddafi's good old propaganda machine at work MonteMiz (talk) 19:06, 17 August 2011 (UTC)

If rebels lost Misrata then why did gaddafi forces lose heisha 20miles south of twarga? Sopher99 (talk) 22:17, 17 August 2011 (UTC)

Complementary maps

I think a map like the ones of Tripolitania and the Gulf of Sirte with areas of control by the pro and anti gadaffists would be great. Could this be done by a wikipedian? I have no idea of how to work with svg files.-- 12:07, 18 August 2011 (UTC)

We don't have enough information about where exactly the front lines are in the desert to make an accurate map MonteMiz (talk) 18:12, 18 August 2011 (UTC)


Blue? See timeline 15:41, 18 August 2011 (UTC)

Timeline and map never were really linked. Timeline actually more or less aggregates every news information. The map reflects a stable state based on reliable sources. Please provide a source for your opinion. Elllit (talk) 20:02, 18 August 2011 (UTC)

Zliten Offensive

Al Jazeera [31] reports major rebel offensive in Zliten, and that the rebels have indeed captured the city center, so i believe Zliten should be completely blue. 13:21, 19 August 2011 (UTC)

Indeed Zliten to fully bleu. Some tweets and rebel reports claim the northern side of Zliten is taken. However, taken or not, there is a major push in Zliten. Also, maybe for Zuwarah, green with a bleu ring as rebels push towards to city form the south and from the east. Unclair if it's taken, but cut of from Tripoli so under siege? —Preceding unsigned comment was added by (talk) 13:49, 19 August 2011 (UTC)
Al Jazeera reporting from Zliten that the city is fully liberated: [32] 18:41, 19 August 2011 (UTC)
ZLITEN COMPLETELY LIBERATED! AJE has just confirmed this, and a reported from inside the city has independently confirmed this fact. linkLoro-rojo (talk) 19:36, 19 August 2011 (UTC)
Guys it appears Zlintan centre is controlled by the rebels( as well as other parts) but gadaffi still has a pressance with in the town. Check linki propose we change it back to blue or put a blue ring around it, what do you reckon? —Preceding unsigned comment was added by (talk) 19:10, 20 August 2011 (UTC)

AJE: "Libyan rebels take control of Az Zawiyah"

Zawiyah should be changed to brown, possibly with a blue circle.

Source: —Preceding unsigned comment was added by (talk) 21:43, 19 August 2011 (UTC)

Blue circle is necessary, as loyalists have launched a counterattack: 1. ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 22:31, 19 August 2011 (UTC)
✓ Done Fovezer (talk) 22:42, 19 August 2011 (UTC)
Zawiya fully liberated: 1 2 —Preceding unsigned comment was added by (talk) 13:52, 20 August 2011 (UTC)

Adjust the bubble scaling: "Beeg boobles!!"

This graphic presently has circles too large to represent the cities. The Tripoli bubble includes suburbs, so that when a suburb is captured by the rebels, it looks like they are well within Tripoli. No, they are just in the next town, miles (many kilometers) away. Please adjust the population bubble size downward so that it better corresponds to the geographic size of cities. Edison (talk) 00:19, 20 August 2011 (UTC) Comment moved over from En:Wikipedia soft-redirect page by NetRolller 3D (talk) 00:51, 20 August 2011 (UTC)

The sizes are pretty precisely determined; see here for details. There are no suburbs of Tripoli on the map. ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 01:09, 20 August 2011 (UTC)


The town of Murzuq (Murzuk) is under rebel control as of mid-afternoon 17 August, or so they claim: [33] [34] -Kudzu1 (talk) 01:25, 20 August 2011 (UTC)

I'm wary of adding it to the map. Remember the last time we added small desert towns? ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 02:04, 20 August 2011 (UTC)
What else are we doing with that empty space? The more information, the better. The district is clearly contested and the map as is doesn't reflect that. -Kudzu1 (talk) 07:00, 20 August 2011 (UTC)
Murzuq is capital of Murzuq district, it should be added to map if Al Quatrun is already there not even mentioning that pop in both cities is app the same. --EllsworthSK (talk) 20:36, 20 August 2011 (UTC)
It's all well and good if we get sufficient information about it, but nothing is ever "clear" in the desert... ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 07:58, 20 August 2011 (UTC)
It should be added. Tripoli isn't disputing the claim. -Kudzu1 (talk) 23:57, 20 August 2011 (UTC)

Has Brega finally fallen?

The AP quotes a rebel spokesman. [35] I also saw it on the news ticker on AJE Live. Obviously, we need further confirmation, but lately, rebel claims haven't been as outlandish as they used to be. Fovezer (talk) 02:25, 20 August 2011 (UTC)

More from AJE. [36] Fovezer (talk) 04:28, 20 August 2011 (UTC)
Al Jazeera Reports: [37] 05:19, 20 August 2011 (UTC)
Here as well. 02:50, 21 August 2011 (UTC)


Zawiya to rebels [38] — Preceding unsigned comment added by Wael.Mogherbi (talk • contribs) 18:11, 20 August 2011 (UTC)

Fighting in Tripoli

AJE is confirming that there is current fighting within the Libyan capital. linkLoro-rojo (talk) 20:56, 20 August 2011 (UTC)

Change Tripoli to blue. It's on. Scottbp (talk) 21:34, 20 August 2011 (UTC)
At this point, I'd say a ring is enough for now. --NetRolller 3D (talk) 21:46, 20 August 2011 (UTC)
At this point full on blue would be premature but i support a blue ring MonteMiz (talk) 22:26, 20 August 2011 (UTC)
BBC too, but it might be wise to wait a few hours; just to see if it continues and really is the start of the Tripoli offensive or is rapidly suppressed by pro-Gaddafi forces (in which case we probably can assume the real offensive will begin within a few days, but that's speculations). 23:07, 20 August 2011 (UTC)
Lets wait till morning and see wether fighting will continue or not. Given that this is not convetional attack by rebel armed forces but local uprising, if fighting will continue till morning, we should not give ring but change it to blue circle. --EllsworthSK (talk) 23:44, 20 August 2011 (UTC)

With Libyan government acknowledging they do not control eastern Tripoli any more (source: AFP) and rebels landing by sea there (also from AFP), I think it is safe to put the whole city in full blue.

Gaddafi has indicated that he would like to take a shower, so we should turn it back to green.


Aziziya is now held by the rebels: 1 —Preceding unsigned comment was added by (talk) 23:46, 20 August 2011 (UTC)

Al-Aziziya should be full blue, because we don't know who's in control, and we all have sources that say different things. 03:03, 21 August 2011 (UTC)
What sources say it isn't? All other sources I've found regarding Aziziya say it's under rebel control. 1 2 —Preceding unsigned comment was added by (talk) 03:26, 21 August 2011 (UTC)
It's necessary to be skeptical of everything (see above, where this has been talked about around 4000 times, and I'm not rehashing it). Besides, that report says "reached"; it doesn't say "held by". Magog the Ogre (talk) 04:48, 21 August 2011 (UTC)
I haven't seen any mention of it being captured. Scottbp (talk) 05:56, 21 August 2011 (UTC)
Spesh531 just put it under rebel control; seeing as we have nothing other than a single report stating that the rebels have "reached" the city (and no other reports even of battles), I've undone the edit. Magog the Ogre (talk) 06:17, 21 August 2011 (UTC)
'The closest rebel-held towns — al-Zawiyah and al-Aziziyah — are about 50 kilometres from Tripoli.' Quoted from the sources. Since the town is held, we can assume that they've done more than just reach it. 12:13, 21 August 2011 (UTC)
August 21, 2011, Al Jazeera: "South of the capital, a battle is expected on Sunday for Aziziyah, the next town on the road after Gharyan." At the very least, that indicates anti-Gaddafi forces are not in full control of al-Aziziyah yet. However, that could change fast since it is a pretty small town (much smaller than most other towns that have been fought over for long periods in this civil war). 13:18, 21 August 2011 (UTC)

Reuters report says rebels headed toward Al Aziziya, but pulled back. So it is still Gaddafi for now. [39] Fovezer (talk) 15:20, 21 August 2011 (UTC)

Here's an article with a map saying that fighting is going on in Al Aziziya. 1. Another saying that government forces have retreated from the city. 2 21:01, 22 August 2011 (UTC)

I just saw a reporter speaking from Al Aziziya in German news. So the city has fallen to the rebels.-- 18:05, 23 August 2011 (UTC)

Are you sure it was not Bab al-Aziziya? Al-Aziziya is a city south of Tripoli, while Bab al-Aziziya is the name of Gaddafi's compound in Tripoli which the rebels took today. They are very different places... ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 18:18, 23 August 2011 (UTC)
He specifically said around 50 km south of Tripoli.-- 18:44, 23 August 2011 (UTC)


Can't find any news at all regarding Mezda, so wouldn't it still be under government control? —Preceding unsigned comment was added by (talk) 00:51, 21 August 2011 (UTC)

I haven't heard anything from Mezda, I think it should be blue till we find out who's in control, because blue is for places where control is not known. 03:00, 21 August 2011 (UTC)
There have been reports of Mizda (also called Mizdah, Mezda, Mezdah...) being "liberated" earlier this Augusts.[40]--Rafy (talk) 08:12, 21 August 2011 (UTC)


Given the neckbreaking speed at which this whole thing is developing, it may be a moot point within a matter of days; however, does anyone have anything to report on Brega? Several media outlets are reporting it fully under Benghazi control [41][42], but I've found at least one claiming it was still hotly contested [43]. Magog the Ogre (talk) 04:47, 21 August 2011 (UTC)

My understanding is that it was under NTC control for a few hours, but was driven out of the industrial area due to heavy shelling [44]. So it's still being contested. Dtnoip28 (talk)
Confirmed by a Spanish news outlet [45]. Magog the Ogre (talk) 11:27, 21 August 2011 (UTC)
This says that not only is Brega held by the rebels, but so is Ras Lanuf and Bin Jawad. 1 13:11, 22 August 2011 (UTC)

Tripoli To Blue

I think that Tripoli should be turned fully blue once again because of rebels holding many areas in it, and the fact that the bulk of the rebel fighting force has reached the edge of the Janzur district. [46] 18:54, 21 August 2011 (UTC)

Done. Rebels are also reported to have entered Tripoli from the west, meeting little resistance. Here is a report from Sky News. [47] Fovezer (talk) 19:09, 21 August 2011 (UTC)


Zuwarah needs blue ring, because we know that rebels are at least engaging Gaddafi forces in the town. 19:20, 21 August 2011 (UTC)

Source? 19:57, 21 August 2011 (UTC)
"The rebels said today that they had taken over the Ras Jdir crossing on the Tunisian border, as well as the towns of Zuwara, Tarhouna and Zawiya..." [48] It's at the bottom of the article. 22:35, 21 August 2011 (UTC)


Rebels meeting mocroscopic resistence from Gaddafi troops in Tripoli, and his security forces surrendered. I say we put it as red with blue ring, about time. 21:52, 21 August 2011 (UTC)

I agree. It's obvious now that the majority of Tripoli is controlled by rebel forces.
"Rebels stated that 90% of Tripoli had been captured..." That should be enough proof to change to red with blue ring. 22:29, 21 August 2011 (UTC)
Strongly disagree, wikipedia is made up of sources and a majority of sources are saying the current status is unclear. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 23:38, 21 August 2011 (UTC)
Tripoli shouldn't be changed to red with a blue ring until fighting is reduced to a few minor skirmishes at least. Rebels have met resistance in places, and a lot of Tripoli remains unclear/unknown.-- 00:18, 22 August 2011 (UTC)
Here's [49] a link stating that the rebels control the majority of Tripoli. 01:35, 22 August 2011 (UTC)
If you had several sources saying the same thing that Tripoli was liberated and the NTC is in full control then okay but until then I do not think a change should be made. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 02:31, 22 August 2011 (UTC)
Agreed. In the past, whenever the rebels had partial control, we colored the city blue. The have partial control. Until they broadcast from Gadaffi's compound, it should stay blue. Kwamikagami (talk) 03:08, 22 August 2011 (UTC)
I agree, too. We should wait and see how this situation develops. Until then, blue. Nemesis6 (talk) 03:11, 22 August 2011 (UTC)
I agree that it should remain blue. They haven't taken Bab al-Aziziya or the Rixos hotel yet, and we really don't know the situation in eastern Tripoli, either. Not even the rebels claim the have full control, yet. Fovezer (talk) 03:14, 22 August 2011 (UTC)
I have an article that says Tripoli has officially fallen to rebels: [50] 03:18, 22 August 2011 (UTC)
And Matthew Chance, CNN correspondent in Tripoli, says that the Rixos and the area around it is still in government hands. Yes, the city center has fallen, but Tripoli is a far larger city than even Az Zawiyah. It also doesn't hurt to let the situation play out for a few hours so we can say for sure. Fovezer (talk) 03:32, 22 August 2011 (UTC)

I just reverted to blue again. We might want to protect the file from editing until we come to agreement here. The articles using it are probably getting a lot of hits right now. Kwamikagami (talk) 06:01, 22 August 2011 (UTC)

Blue is appropriate in light of the fact that violence seems to be erupting again all over the city.
Red and Green are also inappropriate, because it's not under unilateral control. Blue is what we use when there is ongoing fighting. Kwamikagami (talk) 06:12, 22 August 2011 (UTC)
Ok, now I agree that it should be blue. [51] 06:18, 22 August 2011 (UTC)
How's that: Tripoli brown, apart from a blue area downtown. Or maybe it should be green ringed with blue? Kwamikagami (talk) 09:31, 22 August 2011 (UTC)
The whole town should be blue. A BBC correspondent embedded with the rebels couldn't go past the western entrance of the city. Obviously both forces are constantly on the move and there is no way of defining concrete areas of control.--Rafy (talk) 09:41, 22 August 2011 (UTC)
Consensus is that it should still be blue, and so should be reverted to that. Nemesis6 (talk) 09:49, 22 August 2011 (UTC)
I too feel that Tripoli should be reverted to blue. There are reports of clashes and shelling, the rebels have been known to lie, and it is a large enough city for a considerable amount of the city to be controlled by rebels while fighting goes on in another area of the city. As for a ring around it, no matter what color ring, the ring is supposed to be used for towns under SIEGE that are surrounded by the opposing army. Not for a contested town or for reports of fighting. Tripoli is not besieged. If it is unclear whether there is fighting or not then a blue dot should be used. 10:10, 22 August 2011 (UTC)
Okay. Reverted. Kwamikagami (talk) 10:12, 22 August 2011 (UTC)

Al Khums to blue: uprising over night while Misrata forces try breaking through to Tripoli per Al Jazeera Live. Kwamikagami (talk) 12:12, 22 August 2011 (UTC)

What was Al Jazeera's source for this? The rebels no doubt, so I say change it back until there's a proper source for this. 14:44, 22 August 2011 (UTC)


Rebels took industrial area of Brega, Sirte under siege. [52] 15:43, 22 August 2011 (UTC)

Brega needs to be red with blue outline.
This says that not only is Brega held by the rebels, but so is Ras Lanuf and Bin Jawad. 1 13:11, 22 August 2011 (UTC)
But that Zlitan is not, or at least it's not clear. Kwamikagami (talk) 19:59, 22 August 2011 (UTC)


Can someone edit the map this is ludicrous , there are not reports of fighting from anywhere.

No fighting, but it is under siege. 17:13, 22 August 2011 (UTC)

Only claim of siege coming from rebels. Nobody in the independent mainstream media reporting or confirming this. Power-cut doesn't equal siege. Wait up on that until there is independent confirmation. EkoGraf (talk) 17:44, 22 August 2011 (UTC)

22 August - Zuwarah, Ras Ajdir

Zuwarah should be red with a blue circle, and Ras Ajdir should be blue as this article is several hours old and says a handover to rebel forces is imminent: [53] -Kudzu1 (talk) 18:58, 22 August 2011 (UTC)

Agreed. Ras Ajdir needs to be at least blue. Loro-rojo (talk) 21:56, 22 August 2011 (UTC)

Are we sure that the rebels have taken Zuwarah? There's not much coming out of there, with the focus on Tripoli. I've found one source that indicates the rebels hadn't taken it as of yesterday [54]. Two sites cite the Washington Post claim that there's fighting[55][56], but the Post mentions it incidentally, and seems to be taking the rebels at their word. Much as I admire them, they've proven to be a fairly unreliable source. It reminds me of Zlitan and Brega, where the rebels almost had those towns everyday for weeks, according to the rebels themselves. I think it should be blue, until we've got a couple sources confirming it as fully rebel controlled that don't cite the Washington Post. --Quintucket (talk) 10:24, 23 August 2011 (UTC)
Nevermind. Confirmation from a reporter who appears to be on the ground. [57] --Quintucket (talk) 19:07, 23 August 2011 (UTC)

Al Khums to rebels

According to Al Jazeera Andrew Simons Al Khums is in rebel hands just as is whole coastal road from Misrata to Tajura. [58] simmjazeera andrew simmons: Walked amongst vast crowds at Al Qhums, they were climbing all over our car. City appears in full opp control. simmjazeera andrew simmons: Just arrived in Tripoli after long journey from Misrata -- along with countless opp fighters. Ecstatic welcome in every town on coastal rd.
Anyone has anyting more but twitter? I´ll need som solid RF to edit map. --EllsworthSK (talk) 20:39, 22 August 2011 (UTC)

Al Khums appears to be in rebel control, rebels also passing through from Misrata to Tripoli.

Indeed, according andre simmons (al jazeera) , he is in al khums, claims opposition in control , for now.!/simmjazeera Zenithfel (talk) 21:03, 22 August 2011 (UTC)
Done and done. --EllsworthSK (talk) 21:07, 22 August 2011 (UTC)

Rebels control Ras Ajdir & Zuwarah, see Tripolitanian Front Map. 21:22, 22 August 2011 (UTC)

Tripolitanian Front Map is also from Wikipedia Commons, and therefore not a reliable secondary source. --Quintucket (talk) 10:26, 23 August 2011 (UTC)
But Al-Jazeera has a reporter on the ground who confirms Al-Khums is taken. [59], so yes, Al-Khums to red. --Quintucket (talk) 10:40, 23 August 2011 (UTC)

Tammu border crossing

Hearing from a buisness associate in Djamena , he has heard on local radio Tammu border crossing Gadaffi Controlled. Can't verify this but thought i would let you guys know.

Doubt it, Tummu border crossing is deserted most of the year and those who enter has to verify their visa in Qatron. Its just few shackes with water and vents. --EllsworthSK (talk) 22:38, 22 August 2011 (UTC)
Plausible, as the Tubou tribesmen control the countryside, even if they were expelled from Qatrun. But as Ellsworth noted, it's entirely irrelevant, even if you could verify it. --Quintucket (talk) 10:36, 23 August 2011 (UTC)

Tarhuna (And Bani Walid)

I really think Tarhuna should be added to our map. Yes I know some of us don't like adding minor cities, but it seems to have become important. Also, Bani Walid may contested. [60] Though I linked a similar source early on in the conflict and was wrong, so I'm skeptical this time. But it does seem to be under siege, as the rebels are monitoring the approaches. [61] --Quintucket (talk) 10:32, 23 August 2011 (UTC)

Bani Walid needs to have blue ring, since we have a source confirming this. And on a side note, so many developments in 2 days! The rebels almost doubled their territory! 15:23, 23 August 2011 (UTC)

Where's the source? Kwamikagami (talk) 19:40, 23 August 2011 (UTC)
I think they're referring to the sources I linked. --Quintucket (talk) 21:40, 23 August 2011 (UTC)

Bin Jawad to blue or red

"13.13 The rebels have taken control of the oil port of Ras Lunuf and have now reached the outskirts of Bin Jawad."

If you can find more than one source for this, then green with blue circle: Qaddafi held, under siege. --Quintucket (talk) 13:36, 23 August 2011 (UTC)


Please update File:Libyan Uprising - Gulf of Sidra.svg --Tingo Chu (talk) 16:17, 23 August 2011 (UTC)

This message belongs on this talk page. 17:46, 23 August 2011 (UTC)

name the war

shouldn't we give a name for this terrible war? like all the other wars? i suggest 'The Tripolis war'

What about "2011 Libyan civil war". Sounds good, doesnt it? --EllsworthSK (talk) 18:43, 23 August 2011 (UTC)
I have my doubts...
Yeah, "revolution" would be better, but this is not the place to discuss this... Elllit (talk) 18:37, 24 August 2011 (UTC)
When the conflict ends, it is very probable that "revolution" will be the common name in RS (happened with Egypt). Until then, we stick with what we have. ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 19:00, 24 August 2011 (UTC)