User:Donald Trung/Letters to David Hartill

From Wikimedia Commons, the free media repository
Jump to navigation Jump to search
Thanks to David Hartill you can identify every cash coin in this picture 📷.

David Hartill is a British numismatist specialised in Asian cash coins and charms, he wrote the book 📖 “Cast Chinese Coins” which became the definitive work on Chinese cash coins in the West, in an effort to (I think 🤔) promote his wonderful book 📚 he released half of it on the English Wikipedia (see: w:en:Ancient Chinese coinage) which instantly made Wikimedia one of the best websites on Chinese cash coins on the interwebz. He has further been involved in writing ✍🏻 about Japanese cash coins and Korean numismatic charms. Other than his awesome literary works he also rocks an awesome beard 🧔. As David Hartill seems to have gotten a dislike for Wikimedia projects after his less than collaborative experiences here I hope 🤞🏻 to inspire him to return so he could donate his images to Wikimedia Commons so we'll be able to finally say that Wikimedia has the most complete and detailed online work on Asian cash coins and charms (maybe second 🥈 only to Vladimir Belyaev's Zeno.ru).

Online information on Chinese cash coins and charms (18 D. 07 M. 2018 A.)[edit]

"Dear Sir Hartill,

I am a volunteer contributor to Wikimedia Commons and Wikipedia, I am also a great aficionado of your wonderful work in Asian numismatics and hope to collaborate with you in making the online information on both Asian cast coinages and Asian charms more extensive and if possible provide the readers the most complete image of Asian numismatics possible. In the past you’ve donated a large part of your wonderful book “Cast Chinese coins” to the English Wikipedia and I supplanted this with writing and expanding more information on coinages issued by later dynasties often using your book as a reference as well as the website Primaltrek (or “Primal Trek”) by Gary Ashkenazy (I am not familiar if you know this person).

I am currently busy with two tasks (1) make a list of e every possible symbol and/or hidden message, rebus, and visual pun that appears on Chinese charms, Chinese amulets, and Chinese talismans, and (2) make a complete list of every Chinese cash coin by inscription (including more obscure ones and rebel coinages). Once either one of these is finished I will notify you if you so wish so you could help me out.

As I know that nothing comes for free I would like to request you to upload images of these subjects to Wikimedia Commons, as you can set the license however you wish I would suggest creating one that makes it mandatory for anyone interested in using any of your images to link to your book on Amazon, this would benefit you as it would be a free advertisement for your amazing book and would benefit the readers of Wikipedia as it would give illustrations to these subjects and collectors will be able to which cash coins and/or charms they’re reading about.

If you’re currently busy with your next book then please e-mail me again when you’ll find the time.

Yours faithfully,
Trung Quoc Don

Sent 📩 from my Microsoft Lumia 950 XL with Microsoft Windows 10 Mobile 📱."

G* --Donald Trung 『徵國單』 (No Fake News 💬) (WikiProject Numismatics 💴) (Articles 📚) 10:21, 18 July 2018 (UTC)

RE: Online information on Chinese cash coins and charms (22 D. 07 M. 2018 A.)[edit]

"Dear David Hartill,

Excuse me very much for my late reply, John Ferguson (one of your compatriots) gave permission to upload all of his images of cast Chinese coins and amulets to Wikimedia Commons, in many cases these actually include rare pieces or some very well made fakes as well as a lot of pieces which lack present categories. I will notify you on your talk page when that list is finished as I first want to have the images from the John Ferguson Collection to illustrate how some of these symbols are represented (as the are a lot of subtleties to cast Chinese amulets based on homophones and hidden meanings that most (Western) collectors wouldn't understand without A LOT of information and an introduction to the proper context). I also asked Bob Reis to help me with this endeavour.

As for the Primaltrek website if you’re interested you can contact Gary Ashkenazy with his e-mail address ” chinesecharms@gmail.com” and I know that he has a huge collection of Chinese and Taiwanese reference works on cast Chinese amulets. I would also advise you to collaborate with Scott Semans as he’s one of the largest experts in the field. And yes I am familiar with Zeno.ru, it’s probably one of the best websites (or the best in general) for collectors of Oriental coins. I actually hope that the information I’ll add to Wikipedia and Wikimedia Commons will supplement it and vice versa. I’m honestly already looking forward to buying your book on Cast Chinese amulets, I have almost all of your books and even though I don’t collect cast Chinese coin charms myself, I find learning about them a great way to get an insight in what went into the heads of the every day people of ancient China.

By the way, Trung (徵) is my surname, you can call me however you like. ;-)

Yours faithfully,
Trung Quoc Don

Sent 📩 from my Microsoft Lumia 950 XL with Microsoft Windows 10 Mobile 📱."

RE: RE: Online information on Chinese cash coins and charms (22 D. 07 M. 2018 A.)[edit]

"Dear David,

Thank you very much, and yes you are absolutely right about the organisation of your book, although people with more knowledge of the subject such as you and I will generally find it easy to peruse through topics you will have to sell your book to mostly people who simply want to identify their cast Chinese amulets and aren’t that familiar with them, Mandel also does this and John Ferguson could easily identify his collection using this system, Zeno.ru also uses this system. When presenting a narrative about them their categories are important, but the majority of the people in the West will simply not understand the meaning until it's presented to them (which is also why I’m working on that list of symbols and hidden meanings), and after reading some of the preview you sent me I can tell that I am missing a lot of information already so after you publish your book I will have to expand the list. ;-)

With your book Cast Chinese coins I liked how it was orgsnised chronologically but I’m honestly quite certain that that would be a lot more difficult with cast Chinese amulets simply due to the fact that records are scarce, I know that they first appeared during the Han Dynasty as an evolution of Chinese cash coins and that they reached their zenith under the Song Dynasty (and also a lot of new types such as horse coins were introduced then, although I’m not sure if they might be older), I don’t collect them myself but I enjoy reading about them a lot so the moment your book is on Amazon I will order a copy. :-D

Just curious but how were cast Chinese amulets manufactured? Did they have “a mother amulet” (and “ancestor amulets”) in the same manner as cast Chinese coinages? I know that a lot of amulets are very large (such as lock charms and money trees), were these manufactured any differently?

I didn't realise how much (extra) information was available, the few pages you shared probably contain more images of (different) charms than the entire Primaltrek website or at least close to. Does your book also include regular cash coins that were converted into amulets? Such as:

http://sportstune.com/chinese/charms/1/chienlung.html

Will you also order your book by how many characters there are on the obverse of the coin like Mandel does? (e.g. 4 characters, 5, characters, 6 characters, Etc.)

Best,
Don

Sent 📩 from my Microsoft Lumia 950 XL with Microsoft Windows 10 Mobile 📱."

Re: Online information on Chinese cash coins and charms (24 D. 07 M. 2018 A.)[edit]

"I just realised the brilliance of your strategy, the whole thing about content creators of the present is that they can improve upon content creators of the past, and comparing how Mandel did it to yours made me realise that your planned organisational structure is actually more easy to navigate for the novice collector (or just someone interested in reading about them like myself), with Mandel you need to (1) count the number of characters, (2) look at any other symbols including if the reverse is either blank or has a picture, and (3) count the number of strokes. With your approach you only need to explain how to read Chinese amulets and then the reader can essentially use your book “as a dictionary” or “like an encyclopedia”.

I can’t wait to buy it a few years from now. ;-)

Best,
Don

Sent 📩 from my Microsoft Lumia 950 XL with Microsoft Windows 10 Mobile 📱."

Re
Online information on Chinese cash coins and charms (24 D. 07 M. 2018 A.)

"Honestly I completely get where on coming from when you wrote “Though for Korean amulets I grouped them by shape, and it seemed to work. But there were only about 500 of then, while I expect there to be at least 5,000 Chinese ones. Every time I search the Internet, I find ones that are not in the books.” I keep discovering new Chinese coin amulets I’ve never seen literally almost every day. I’m not sure if I even want to continue working ⚒ on Chinese coin amulets anymore. It's a lot of work and I don’t even collect them myself, however I will finish 🏁 everything and then I can finally focus on making that chronological list 📃 of all Chinese cash coins.

Best,
Don

Sent 📩 from my Microsoft Lumia 950 XL with Microsoft Windows 10 Mobile 📱."

Symbols on cast Chinese amulets 30 D. 07 M. 2018 A.)[edit]

"Dear David Hartill,

I added the list to the Wikipedia article on cast Chinese amulets which you could see here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Chinese_numismatic_charm&oldid=852596402#Implied_and_hidden_meanings_of_Chinese_numismatic_charms

However while doing research I realised that several symbols such as boats and others are missing, if you see any mistakes feel free to fix it.

Yours faithfully,
Trung Quoc Don

Sent 📩 from my Microsoft Lumia 950 XL with Microsoft Windows 10 Mobile 📱."

RE: Symbols on cast Chinese amulets (31 D. 07 M. 2018 A.)[edit]

"Dear David,

Thank you so much for all the corrections you’ve pointed out to me, the article was originally called “Yansheng Coin” (yes, the “Coin” was capitalised) and could be described as a lazy translation from a Baidu Baike article from a decade ago, I renamed the article in May 2018 to “Chinese numismatic charm” because of several factors. I mostly renamed it because of on Wikimedia Commons User:Baomi made a category named “Chinese numismatic charms” which you can find here:

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Chinese_numismatic_charms

At the time there were only 14 (fourteen) images of these amulets and apparently 8 (eight) of them were uploaded by me so User:Baomi asked me if I had more of them and today after some imports and many uploads the category has 55 subcategories. While doing research I found the “Chinese Numismatic Charm Museum” in Haikuo, however their English name is misspelled at the entrance so in both cases I got the name from Mainland-Chinese people (as far as one could consider the island of Hainan to be a part of “the mainland”), while doing research I found that most sources refer to them simply as “Chinese charms” with a few calling them either “Chinese coin charms” or “Chinese coin-like charms”, now I personally don't collect them and very little interest in ever seriously collecting them however on the Dutch Wikipedia I met a man (User:Quistnix) who does collect them and has a rather large collection of them, he exclusively refers to them as “Chinese amulets”. Personally I don’t have a preference, however I had absolutely no idea that the article even existed until a few months ago, when I found it it looked like this:

https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Chinese_numismatic_charm&oldid=810751376

And was called “Yansheng Coin” which is odd since the most popular Chinese term for them is “Flower coin” (花錢), a name which was already mentioned but only as an alternative. Baomi at the time was working on this:

https://zh.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=%E8%8A%B1%E9%8C%A2&variant=zh-tw&oldid=50074229

I decided that “Chinese numismatic charm” was a better title for the simple reason because “Chinese charm” was by far the most common name I could find and at the time I was already planning to create separate articles for Japanese, Korean, and Vietnamese numismatic charms, having a common working title would enable me to group these derivatives of Chinese amulet coins.

Indeed, there are also many struck Chinese coin amulets, in fact from what I could tell these are as old as the struck cash coins of the Guangxu Emperor so “Cast Chinese amulets” might not be the best title for publishing, but as they began during the Han Dynasty the majority of them would be cast.

Honestly I really want to add all your improvements but on the English language Wikipedia you need to cite sources and I based this article for 80% off of Gary Ashkenazy's Primaltrek website, I mostly expanded this article to this point simply because most collectors of Chinese cash coins (or just cash coins in general) will very often run into amulets that look a lot like cash coins but don't know what they are, this way they could easily get the full story behind them and what most symbols mean (although I saw that I missed the Junk ships symbolising prosperous trade being carried by the winds of good fortune).

As for Horse coins and elephant chess pieces, I took the entire Primaltrek website and copied it (after sufficiently rewording it and doing a bit of additional research), I had to split Bamboo tallies and Jiangsu tokens into separate articles because those obviously didn't fit in this article. I never really had any passion for these amulets other than as decorations and saw them as “stupid superstition” but the more I learn about them and how well they reflect on the culture and daily lives of the Chinese people from the poorest to the Emperor himself the more I want to read about them.

In case I accidentally misused the Manchu word for mint it must've been because of the source as I did add the correct information to the Qing Dynasty coinage article, I will correct it later. As for the tiger chasing away the 5 noxious creatures, I actually didn't know that but again, I mostly just used what I could find online (which is usually just Primaltrek and some other sources, most of them just copy Primaltrek wholly). It was actually too late when I realised that Mandel's system of organisation is superior to the one I used on Wikipedia so on Wikimedia Commons I did later also adopt Mandel’s more descriptive categorisation as opposed to only Gary Ashkenazy's thematic categorisation which actually leaves out a lot of Chinese amulets.

By the way, how will you organise completely pictorial charm amulets? And how about Daoist “magic” writing/Daoist secret writing? As most of those characters are actually indecipherable.

Currently I’m working on a sepate Yongle Tongbao/Eiraku Tsuuhuo article and then a full list of Chinese cash coins by inscription. Personally I prefer to be working on Chinese banknotes produced between 1912 and 1949, however these are just as numerous as Chinese coin-like amulets and like Chinese coin-like amulets every time I go on the internet I discover another variant, often I don't even go looking for them. I also keep finding new presentation coins, now a few issued by rebels being auctioned off.

Best,
Don

Sent 📩 from my Microsoft Lumia 950 XL with Microsoft Windows 10 Mobile 📱."

General remarks about naming Chinese flower coins and some related subjects (01 D. 08 M. 2018 A.)[edit]

"Dear David Hartill,

I know that you are a busy bloke, so please only read this when you have the time, but here are just some general notes on Asian numismatic charms.

On Chinese amulets:

A bit more on the name “Chinese numismatic charms” as opposed to “Cast Chinese amulets” and the like, it's actually quite simple, all amulets are charms but not all charms are amulets and since many of the Daoist coins are in fact talismans (such as the “God of Thunder curse charms” or “Lei Ting curse charms”), things like presentation coins should probably not be considered “charms” at all, and the term “Chinese numismatic charms” would still include things like this:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/81/Chinese_amulet_hangers_supposedly_for_good_luck%2C_Oude_Pekela_%282018%29_17.jpg

As this is a Chinese charm with coin-based decorations. While I still worked and lived in Venezuela I often ran into Colombian, Indian, and Pakistani shops that created their cash coin- and sycee-based Chinese amulets to sell to the more superstitiously inclined among us, this begs me to ask, what year will you use to define when something is no longer a “Traditional Chinese amulet”? Although the last Chinese cash coins bearing the inscription “Min Guo Tong Bao” (民國通寶) were cast in 1912 I’ve seen many Chinese and Taiwanese (coin) amulets both struck and cast with “Minguo” (民國) written on them. To end cataloging them with the fall of the Manchu Qing Dynasty would do collectors a disservice, but at what point should new amulets be worth cataloging? Otherwise you’ll be setting yourself up to an impossible task, but missing even a single amulet would mean that your work wouldn’t be “THE definitive work”. The whole thing with amulets is that depending by what definition you use “fantasies” don't exist.

On Japanese, Korean, and Vietnamese numismatic charms:

One thing that I learned being Vietnamese of Chinese descent and having lived in China (Guizhou) and in Chinatowns over Australia is that when Eduardo Toda y Güell wrote in his book about Vietnamese cash coins the sentence “Nothing else could be expected from a country which has no real civilization of its own, but is only a reflex of China in everything relating to art, religion and government.” I can’t feel but to agree with him 100%, although some minor cultural differences exist between us and the Chinese exist such as the fact that I’ve never seen a Chinese person call a silver Yuan from the 1920’s “a lucky amulet” while I see my compatriots do that with silver French Indo-Chinese coins all the time, this is not really a comment on Chinese and Vietnamese amulets but rather what Vietnamese people can see as an “amulet” and what a Chinese person views as an amulet. One major difference is also both with coin dealers and coin collectors, I have yet in China and Taiwan to find a (cash) coin dealer that doesn’t also sell Chinese coin-like amulets, in fact I have yet to find any kind of shop (including candle shops, paint shops, supermarkets, fitness gyms, jewelers, Etc.) in China and Taiwan that doesn’t sell these, comparatively while I still lived in my native Vietnam I met this banknote seller who also used to sell cash coins until he realised that letting his pregnant wife carry them to every event proved to be too heavy and that selling banknotes was simply more profitable for him. He is the type of seller that if you buy from him and you point to a coin or banknote and tell him that you like it would give you an extra one free of charge, I bought my Viet Cong issued banknotes from him (at least the ones I could afford, as I’m a collector and not a dealer so for me collecting numismatic objects only has expenses and no profits :-P), I often bought cash coins from him as he always tried to get rid of them, even giving a lot away for free and with him I got authentic 200 year old Vietnamese and 2000 year old Chinese cash coins for a lot less money (or EVEN FOR FREE) while others were selling reproductions for five times the amount in the same street. As the years passed by the cash coins and copper French Indo-Chinese coins he had became smaller in quantity and those that were left were of bad quality (broken in half, unreadable inscriptions, Etc.) and the only coins he kept dealing in were silver French Indo-Chinese Piastre de Commerce coins as those are an easy buck, as I had already bought every banknote off him that I could afford (read: What my wife would let me spend on my hobby) I asked him if he knew of other cash coin dealers in Hanoi, I myself lived in a very rural area outside of Hanoi so I rarely came into contact with “city folk”, I now live in a very rural part of the Kingdom of the Netherlands and basically have only lived in cities while I was in Australia (where I got my second passport), the man sent me to a local cash coin collectors club headed by the man in charge of the coin collection of the Museum of Vietnamese History, I can’t remember his name but he basically just handed me a list of which cash coin dealers were dealing in fakes and then I met the man whom would become “my main coin dealer” from then, I noticed something odd he was selling and then pointed out that the inscription made no sense to me, we were both men of Chinese descent and both grew up with families who believed in “the power of coin amulets” but I never had an interest in either collecting or learning more about them, he then explained what these amulets were and what they mean and how people use them. He also said that he collected and sold them. After getting home I started doing research on the internet, I actually couldn’t find that much information about them so I asked him again, then later he explained that while Japanese and Korean numismatic charms were very different from the Chinese ones, the Vietnamese ones were basically identical, he said it was because Vietnam was a Chinese province for over a millennium and since those charms came from the Han Dynasty and Dai Viet wouldn't know independence until after the Tang Dynasty the inscriptions and designs followed the same rules, but then he explained to me that as Chinese coin-like amulets evolved drastically during the Song Dynasty, Vietnamese coin-like charms would largely resemble the more older (and often inferior) Chinese designs, he also said that the evolution of coin-like charms is always parallel to that of cash coins, he said name every distinction between Chinese and Vietnamese cash coins and you would find them with amulets too.

I told him that Vietnamese cash coins were often diminutive and their alloys were made from more brittle metals and were often of poorer workmanship, he then showed me two very similar Daoist Thunder God talismans and the Vietnamese one was significantly smaller, its alloy seemed to contain more zinc and overall it just looked like a bad imitation of the Chinese one. For that reason I’ve never really had any interest in collecting Vietnamese coin-like amulets, like everything else it just seemed like “a reflex of China” although later I learned about the large number of South-Vietnamese amulets produced during the 1960’s and 1970’s to sell off to foreigners as “genuine Vietnamese antiques” and honestly I find those more interesting. I have never really done the research to confirm that what he told me was true as trade between China and Vietnam always existed so I would think that Vietnamese versions of Song Dynasty amulets must exist just like how most literature I could find about Horse coins is actually Japanese and I even found a good number of Vietnamese works on the subject.

What I like about Japanese coin-like amulets is the fact that somen of them use Kokuji (國字), and although some minorities in China such as the Sui people and the Khitans produced charms (or medals) with their own scripts, comparatively Western Xia Dynasty cash coins with Tangut inscriptions were actual circulating cash coins while Liao Dynasty “cash coins” with Khitan inscriptions weren't, but I don't have you explain any of this to you. :-P By the way, how are you going to organise amulets with Sui, Sanskrit, and Khitan inscriptions? Are you even going to include these in your book?

The book you co-authored with Wybrand op den Velde is actually one of the few works you produced that I don’t have yet, although I’ve already bookmarked it on Amazon.com, I still have to buy it, are there Korean coin-like amulets with non-Chinese scripts?

I know that the Parisian François Thierry de Crussol has written extensively about Chinese and Vietnamese coin-like amulets, have you requested his help with your upcoming book yet? I know of others like the Muscovite Vladimir Belyaev who wrote extensively about Mongol Yuan Dynasty, have you asked his help? I know that too many ideas from too many people can either ruin a work or make it great. Belyaev by the way is also the owner and maintainer of both Charm.ru and Zeno.ru and I known that Sergey N. Shevtov is also an expert in Chinese coin-like charms and I have yet to contact him. Did you by the way contact Gary Ashkenazy from Primaltrek?

Although I’m pretty certain that you do most of your research through Chinese sources.

Yours faithfully,
Trung Quoc Don

Sent 📩 from my Microsoft Lumia 950 XL with Microsoft Windows 10 Mobile 📱.

Sent 📩 from my Microsoft Lumia 950 XL with Microsoft Windows 10 Mobile 📱.

P.S. (Post-Script): Maybe it’s better to get some of these questions from me as opposed to an expert as I (1) have no prior experiences with these things, (2) am interested in finding out more about them, and (3) have lots of experience reading your works. :-P But then again, the experts I mentioned above already understand the target audience, plus I know a Dutch bloke who actually does collect Asian amulets and actually has a lot of experience with the Western collectors community (including those who collect Indonesian cash coin-like amulets based on the Chinese tradition, a field very few actually venture in), if you want I could give him your e-mail address, this is since he actually collects them his comments would probably be more of value to you. ;-)"

RE. General remarks about naming Chinese flower coins and some related subjects (01 D. 08 M. 2018 A.)

"David,

1900 is a good cut off date, though personally I would've preferred 1911 or 1912 as it’s the end of the Qing Dynasty.

Scott Semans gave a lot of criticism about the Wikipedia article so after I'm done with the full list of Chinese cash coins I will probably have to re-write a large part of it.

Best,
Don

Sent 📩 from my Microsoft Lumia 950 XL with Microsoft Windows 10 Mobile 📱."

You were right when you called them “Cast Chinese Amulets” (15 D. 08 M. 2018 A.)[edit]

“Dear David Hartill,

In his book “Amulets of Vietnam” Craig Greenbaum stated the following:

“The first question arises as to what is the proper term to be used for these devices. Sometimes the word charm or talisman is used as a descriptive word.” He completely explains as to why he thinks that neither “charms” or “talismans” are good words for Vietnamese amulets.

“When I think of a charm, I think of jewelry or something or someone that enchants another. This implies an unnecessary connotation that might confuse the reader.” This is completely true, while many cast Vietnamese amulets were worn as “charms” not all fully fit this description.

“The word talisman is probably derived from the Hebrew word tallit or tallis. A tallit is a cloth scarf worn by Jewish men and usually has long tassels at the end. It is draped around the neck and lays at the front of the body. It often has religious Hebrew quotes and symbols embroidered on it. This word was probably first used to describe Jewish people, but was latter convoluted to mean a charm that benefits the wearer with some magical or occult protection. This incorrect interpretation and social bias for the word talisman makes it an inappropriate term.” I agree 100% with this reasoning as the term b”Talisman” seems to be extremely specific, there is no need to ascribe Jewish “talismans” to the Vietnamese amulets in this manner.

“Thus we are left with the term amulet. It is my preference in part because of the pioneering and continuing work in this field that has been done by French scholars who use the French term “amulette”. Additionally it does not carry added meanings that cloud the issue of what these devices are and represent. I believe it to be the preferred term (in English) and the only one I will use in this book.” Quote from Craig Greenbaum in his book “Amulets of Vietnam”. And a quote I wholeheartedly agree 🤝🏻 with. Craig Greenbaum hits home 🏠 with his work.

Yours faithfully,
Donald Trung Quoc Don

Sent 📩 from my Microsoft Lumia 950 XL with Microsoft Windows 10 Mobile 📱.

Sent 📩 from my Microsoft Lumia 950 XL with Microsoft Windows 10 Mobile 📱.”

List of Chinese cash coins by inscription online (expert help requested) (06 D. 09 M. 2018 A.)[edit]

"Dear David Hartill,

Could you please check this list of Chinese cash Coins by inscription to see if I missed anything or made any errors:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Chinese_cash_coins_by_inscription

Note that I used the 2005 edition of your book as I don't have the newer one.

Yours faithfully,
Trung Quoc Don

Sent 📩 from my Microsoft Lumia 950 XL with Microsoft Windows 10 Mobile 📱."

Consulted method of communication[edit]

Original publication 📤[edit]

Sent 📩 from my Microsoft Lumia 950 XL with Microsoft Windows 10 Mobile 📱. --Donald Trung 『徵國單』 (No Fake News 💬) (WikiProject Numismatics 💴) (Articles 📚) 10:21, 18 July 2018 (UTC)

Cast Chinese Coins on Amazon[edit]

J* Cast Chinese Coins: Second Edition.

Retrieved from "https://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=User:Donald_Trung/Letters_to_David_Hartill&oldid=318820277"