User talk:Donald Trung/Archive 442

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Wikipedia translation of the week: 2023-18

Emblem of the vice president of the Republic of Vietnam

Hi, Donald Trung.

I saw these two screenshots on Flickr: [1], [2]. These two screenshots are from a video of Vice President Tran Van Huong's visit to the Republic of China. Unfortunately, the resolution of the video is so low that it is impossible to get a clear image of the logo. However, the words on it are very clear, "Vice President of the Republic of Vietnam," and the design in the middle appears to be a tree (reminds me of the bamboo of Diem).

This is the only time I've seen this emblem, and I don't know if you've seen it? If not, we may keep an eye out for photos or documents that might have this logo (I don't know what countries the Vice President of the Republic of Vietnam had visited, maybe there are some high-resolution photos of the Vice President's plane like these two screenshots kept in online archives).

In addition, besides the president and vice president, are there insignia for positions like the prime minister or vice prime minister? Still a mystery to me.

Yours, 源義信 (talk) 13:45, 29 April 2023 (UTC)

Seal of the PTTVNCH
I found a letter from the Vice President with this seal on it. Well, at least now there's a non-colored version of this seal. 源義信 (talk) 14:18, 29 April 2023 (UTC)
Hello, Nguyên Nghĩa Tín (源義信),
Interesting Flickr account, I found some more interesting documents on it (Internet Archive's Wayback Machine), but regarding that the seal of the Vice President of South Vietnam, well if I'd guess I'd say that it looks like a Bonsai tree (Chậu kiểng hay chậu cây kiểng) to me. But I'm quite sure that it's not in fact a Bonsai tree, rather it's likely a type of tree that grows in South Vietnam but is seen as less important than the bamboo. Simply searching "Trees in Vietnam" (Archive) in Ecosia gave me a number of results, this is where I found this (Archive) and this (Archive), personally this makes me think that the seal used by South Vietnam's Vice President was in fact depicting a Pentaspadon poilanei tree.
Personally, I think that the best course of action we could take is to try to convince both RVN Nostalgic people and Vietnamese Communist people to donate as many images as possible to the Wikimedia Commons to make this website some sort of "Museum of Vietnamese history" and just sell the idea to (for example) Overseas South Vietnamese that donating whatever documents, emblems, stories, Etc. to the Wikimedia Commons is "a way to keep (the spirit of) South Vietnam alive" and hope that we'll be able to recruit more people to this cause. I've already asked a few people... I didn't have much success, but the more we push the project the more people would be interested in it.
P.S. (Post-Script), now that I have your attention anyway, I wonder what happened to those documents of the Court of the Imperial Clan. I remember you saying that you stumbled upon a large number of documents issued by this institution, are they online? --Donald Trung 『徵國單』 (No Fake News 💬) (WikiProject Numismatics 💴) (Articles 📚) 20:10, 29 April 2023 (UTC)
I archived the other question, as I don't want to bother you with that. I think that your passion for South Vietnamese documents and culture is amazing, I will try to keep the focus on Nguyễn Dynasty seals for myself. I have already downloaded several books and I have almost a thousand files on my wife's laptop 💻 ready to be imported, but the truth is that this is a lot of work and I have lots of other projects that I want to finish first (1st) so this may take years. Plus I want to return to Việt Nam to take lots of pictures in museums of seals knobs. --Donald Trung 『徵國單』 (No Fake News 💬) (WikiProject Numismatics 💴) (Articles 📚) 20:46, 29 April 2023 (UTC)
Also, I'm currently drafting an article about the "Bảo Đại reforms" and I have been unable to find (contemporary) portraits of Vương Tứ Đại (王賜大) and (surprisingly) Ngô Đình Diệm (吳廷琰). I'm not sure if you ever came across the portraits of either of these gentlemen during the 1930's. --Donald Trung 『徵國單』 (No Fake News 💬) (WikiProject Numismatics 💴) (Articles 📚) 22:13, 29 April 2023 (UTC)
I have tried to find the portrait of Vương Tứ Đại and early photographs of Ngô Đình Diệm but failed. It is disappointing, but not very surprising, that much of the late Nguyen dynasty history lacks accessible sources, despite the fact that in time it has entered the 20th century. For it is always difficult to find sources, when looking for information on the history of the late Nguyen dynasty, especially the biographies of the officials, etc. Very often, we can only find and speculate on their experiences through some of the newspaper resources available on the internet. I'm also always curious about the experiences of these feudal mandarins after 1945 (if not killed by the Viet Minh).
And say photographs, in addition to the available Who's Who book Souverains et notabilités d'Indochine, most of the photographs from the Nguyen Dynasty period can only be seen randomly on the internet. For other material like official documents, I think it's the same situation. I think there is a lot of this historical material stored in the archives of the Vietnamese authorities, but it is not available to us. 源義信 (talk) 06:39, 30 April 2023 (UTC)
源義信, Yeah, due to the First (1st) Indo-China War about ⅘ (four-fifths) of the imperial archives of the Nguyễn Dynasty were destroyed, the provisional revolutionary government of the Democratic Republic of Việt Nam transported the documents from Huế to Hanoi following the abolition of the Nguyễn Dynasty but then during the 1946 battle of Hanoi and the subsequent transporting of parts of these archives by both the Việt Minh and the French a large part was lost. In many instances archives just randomly disappeared and we don't know when and why. For example, the archives of the Resident-General of Annam & Tonkin were supposed to contain a copy of every certificate issued for holders of the Military Medal of Annam (and Tonkin), but no such archive has ever been located, with the last known reference to it being made sometime during the 1920's.
A lot of archives were just local village, canton, District, Prefecture, and Provincial archives. My guess is that either they don't care or they destroyed their Nguyễn Dynasty archives sometime after the fall of the Dynasty. What's interesting is that we know just as little about what happened to the archives of the Revival Lê Dynasty or the Tây Sơn Dynasty after the Nguyễn Dynasty took over. What's even more interesting is that there was a national project during the 2010's to look through these local archives to find information about the Hoang Sa (Paracel) and Truong Sa (Spratly) archipelagos, so apparently these local archives do still exist...
Yeah, it just baffles me how it is easier to find information and documents from the late 18th (eighteenth) century from basically any Western country (European, North American, South American, and Oceanian) than it is to find even Nguyễn Dynasty things from the 1930's and 1940's.
The most important source on the Nguyễn Dynasty government would be the Bulletin of the Southern Dynasty in the National Language, but neither the French nor the Vietnamese government has made this bulletin available online. Apparently it was published since the 1880's, but I've only ever seen the cover of one (1) issue from 1936. What's interesting is that in other source documents I've seen people refer to this bulletin, so at the time it was both widely circulated and widely read.
My guess is that it contained all accounts from every level of the Imperial government, even District-level and it included all decrees and ordinances issued. Unfortunately, it's nowhere to be found online.
Both the North Vietnamese and South Vietnamese sought to distance themselves from the Nguyễn Dynasty after the partition.
As for the idea of "feudalism", this is actually an idea invented by Chinese Marxists trying to use Marxist historiography onto Chinese history and later Vietnamese and Korean Communists adopted this. Because with Korean historiography it is solely associated with North Korea nobody ever refers to Joseon as "feudal" outside of North Korea, but both Mainland Chinese and Vietnamese historians always use the term "feudal" (Phong kien, a term originating and originally exclusively referred to a system from the Zhou Dynasty) to their history because of the Marxist view of history. This is wrong and even Karl Marx himself would have disagreed. Karl Marx argued that Feudalism was an exclusively Western European phenomenon and that Capitalism only developed in Western Europe because of the economic system feudalism set up. Later a Russian Marxist (while Marx was alive) tried to project feudalism into Russian history and Marc vehemently disagreed stating that Russia is a slavery-based society and that none of the aspects of Feudalism were present in it (Russian lords owned their peasants as slaves and traded in them, feudal peasants have a limited degree of freedom that slaves don't have), likewise, the Chinese (and Vietnamese and Korean) systems look absolutely nothing like feudalism. People advance through society through examination, this is literally how we organise society today, using that logic both Communist China and Communist Vietnam are "feudal societies". -- — Donald Trung 『徵國單』 (No Fake News 💬) (WikiProject Numismatics 💴) (Articles 📚) 07:06, 30 April 2023 (UTC)
Yes, I agree with you about 'feudalism', i.e. the use of '封建' to describe the history of China after the Zhou dynasty and the history of Vietnam is wrong. I remember in the Diem period the authorities also used this term and they describe President Diem as the hero who drove out feudalism (i.e. Bao-Dai). 源義信 (talk) 07:21, 30 April 2023 (UTC)
源義信, Yes, it's how the propaganda works. The Diem regime realised that they could use Northern (Communist) propaganda against "the old guard", remember that Diem was a workaholic who was banned from working the job he was so passionate about by both the Nguyễn and the French for decades. It is only logical that the first (1st) thing be did after acquiring power was oust both the Bảo Đại Emperor and the remaining French administrators to consolidate his power. He did evoke a lot of Confucianism and Confucian symbolism during his reign, but had South Vietnam existed today they would have believed a large number of nationalist myths that the Northerners believed, in fact, Kelley has argued that a common source of many modern Vietnamese myths is the Overseas Vietnamese Community. -- — Donald Trung 『徵國單』 (No Fake News 💬) (WikiProject Numismatics 💴) (Articles 📚) 07:36, 30 April 2023 (UTC)
Very good project, I often see people of the former RVN posting photos on the internet. And with the passage of time, much of these has disappeared from the web and may never be seen again. And I am not able to upload them to Commons (except for scans of those official documents) due to copyright protection laws, which is very distressing to me.
As for the Court of the Imperial Clan, I recall that I was only planning to upload some of the photos but not the documents of it. 源義信 (talk) 07:26, 30 April 2023 (UTC)
源義信, Ah, that makes sense. That is true, this is how a lot of history is lost today. The Wikimedia Commons has more longevity than most random websites or blogs. Many museums and even universities just completely delete all their old content when "modernising" (appifying) their websites, and many older websites just get deleted after the owners either lose interest or die. A lot of elderly people wrote websites about the things they were most passionate about back in the day, a lot of this has been lost. Lots of hosting services have gone offline, some websites fall because of a lack of reader donations (several websites I had used in my youth, like one for mating Demotivational posters went completely away because they couldn't pay the monthly $ 40,- hosting fee).
The Wikimedia Commons hosts these files with the donations of the readers of Wikipedia and just general donors, as long as Wikipedia remains popular these files are safe (unless copyright ©️ law changes to become even stricter). Very few people realise that The Internet Archive is a free indefinite hosting of their blogs, many people simply don't care.
As for old documents that isn't relevant to them, most heirs will probably just destroy them as they don't think that they're important. Many children don't even know about their parents' websites. And eBay deletes all information six (6) months after unlisting an item. With Meta's Facebook I've read that many surviving family members try to completely erase the online presence of their relatives, so someone could post something today, they die tomorrow, and then overmorrow their children have either the choice of preserving their memory or deleting their profile and everything they have ever posted. Plus, Meta's Facebook can just randomly delete your account, I've used an account for years and then I was locked out because I had to provide a telephone 📞 number, I tried using my telephone number but it didn't accept it and when I tried to contact customer support I didn't get any message, then I had a cousin in the United States of America call them (as they do offer better customer support there) and they essentially told him that I should just register a new account, I came to find that all my comments, uploads, Etc. were deleted as if I just wasted years of my life doing nothing, all replies were also deleted because there were no more original posts. I looked this up and multiple people had their accounts deleted because Meta sometimes randomly asks people to provide a telephone 📞 number for "extra security" and accounts will become invisible 🫥 until such a number is provided, many other people also couldn't register their mobile telephone numbers (I just never received the SMS). These random things occur all over the internet 🛜, at least the Wikimedia Commons doesn't delete all of a user's uploads after blocking them and they can be indefinitely undeleted afterwards. For example, user "Musée Annam" uploaded a lot of good historical images of Vietnam to the Wikimedia Commons under several accounts that got nuked, I found out about these images and requested undeletion with the correct copyright ©️ licences (sometimes they were already tagged correctly but admins just deleted them because he's a known copyright ©️ violator), this is impossible on any other website. Either you defend your work or it's gone and if you're not allowed to defend it nobody will, here others can defend it. — Donald Trung 『徵國單』 (No Fake News 💬) (WikiProject Numismatics 💴) (Articles 📚) 07:50, 30 April 2023 (UTC)
Another thing that happens is that a new admin or admins get appointed and they just delete an entire forum's history "to start over" or because they are just trolling (this is how the original "WikiInAction" Sub-Reddit was deleted, deleting over 10 (ten) years of posts exposing corruption and misinformation at Wikipedia), likewise a change in the term of service can delete entire forums on hosting services, or a single problematic comment in an old post can cause admins to nuke their entire forum history. I've never been active in internet forums simply because of how fickle longevity on them is, if I do use one I always back up using the Internet Archive's Wayback Machine. -- — Donald Trung 『徵國單』 (No Fake News 💬) (WikiProject Numismatics 💴) (Articles 📚) 07:55, 30 April 2023 (UTC)
  • I kind of forgot to add that Việt-Nam is kind of lucky, neither the Communists nor the Capitalists tried to deliberately destroy old archives like they did in Mainland China during the Cultural Revolution. The French colonial empire didn't even try to destroy the old documents documenting their atrocities like Winston Churchill did with "Operation Legacy" where they deliberately destroyed countless of documents to censor any negative image of the British Empire.
A huge Spanish colonial archive was also destroyed when during the colonial times the Spaniards moved the archives of (I think Guatemala) from one city to another and destroyed around 2 million documents "because they weren't important". In Vietnam's case most Nguyễn Dynasty archives were destroyed in the aftermath of World War II (two) and during the First (1st) Indo-China War, but afterwards most archives were spared (the Vietnam War was mostly fought in rural South Vietnam with only occasional flashes in the cities, all the archive-hosting cities were captured with minimal violence). --Donald Trung 『徵國單』 (No Fake News 💬) (WikiProject Numismatics 💴) (Articles 📚) 08:06, 30 April 2023 (UTC)

Quality imports

Request a colour reversal.
Use this template.

Draft 3

{{Underconstruction}} {{cat see also|Quality imports|lang={{PAGELANGUAGE}} }} <noinclude> {{shortcut|COM:QIM|lang={{PAGELANGUAGE}} }} <languages/> [[File:Quality Download logo 4.svg|35px]] <translate> <!--T:2--> '''Quality imports''' are media files that meet certain quality standards (which are mostly technical in nature). <!--T:70--> There are currently '''{{PAGESINCATEGORY:Quality imports}}''' media files marked as Quality imports, which is roughly {{formatnum:{{#expr:({{PAGESINCATEGORY:Quality imports|files|R}}/{{NUMBEROFFILES:R}} round 5) * 100}} }}% of the available files ({{NUMBEROFFILES}}). <!--T:3--> This page highlights recently promoted files that meet the {{pg|Commons:Quality import guidelines|quality import guidelines}}. If you think that a particular file meets the criteria, you may nominate it at [[Commons:Quality imports candidates]]. All Quality imports can be found in a category called [[:Category:Quality imports|Quality imports]]. You can browse Quality imports by '''[[:Category:Quality imports by country|country]]''', '''[[:Category:Quality imports by subject|subject]]''', '''[[:Category:Quality imports by century|century]]''', '''[[:Category:Quality imports by format|format]]''' (for example photographs, books, movies, paintings, music, Etc.), '''[[:Category:Quality imports by file type|file type]]''' (JPEG, PNG, SVG, MP3, MP4, Etc.), or '''[[:Category:Quality imports by author|user/author]]'''. <!--T:4--> Quality imports are divided into [TO BE DETERMINED] subgroups. Any individual file may be placed in one or more of these groups: <!--T:5--> * Media files with special technical merit. These files can be used as reference tools for teaching and explaining concepts. </translate> <translate> <!--T:6--> * Media files with a particular subject. This group has subgroups such as "birds" and "man-made structures". </translate> <translate> <!--T:7--> * Media files created in a particular manner. For example, animations and pictures created with the use of a microscope. <!--T:8--> (Before adding new media files to these pages please see [[Commons talk:Quality imports]].) </translate> </noinclude> <translate> == Quality imports by technical merit == <!--T:24--> </translate> TO BE ADDED <translate> = Quality imports by type = <!--T:61--> </translate> TO BE ADDED <noinclude> [[Category:Commons projects-en|Quality imports]] [[Category:Quality imports| ]] </noinclude>

Draft 2

{{Underconstruction}} {{cat see also|Quality imports|lang={{PAGELANGUAGE}} }} <noinclude> {{shortcut|COM:QIM|lang={{PAGELANGUAGE}} }} <languages/> [[File:Quality Download logo 4.svg|35px]] <translate> <!--T:2--> '''Quality imports''' are media files that meet certain quality standards (which are mostly technical in nature). <!--T:70--> There are currently '''{{PAGESINCATEGORY:Quality imports}}''' media files marked as Quality imports, which is roughly {{formatnum:{{#expr:({{PAGESINCATEGORY:Quality imports|files|R}}/{{NUMBEROFFILES:R}} round 5) * 100}} }}% of the available files ({{NUMBEROFFILES}}). <!--T:3--> This page highlights recently promoted files that meet the {{pg|Commons:Quality import guidelines|quality import guidelines}}. If you think that a particular file meets the criteria, you may nominate it at [[Commons:Quality imports candidates]]. All Quality imports can be found in a category called [[:Category:Quality imports|Quality imports]]. You can browse Quality imports by '''[[:Category:Quality imports by country|country]]''', '''[[:Category:Quality imports by subject|subject]]''', '''[[:Category:Quality imports by century|century]]''', '''[[:Category:Quality imports by format|format]]''' (for example photographs, books, movies, paintings, music, or different file types) '''[[:Category:Quality imports by author|user/author]]'''. <!--T:4--> Quality imports are divided into [TO BE DETERMINED] subgroups. Any individual file may be placed in one or more of these groups: <!--T:5--> * Media files with special technical merit. These files can be used as reference tools for teaching and explaining concepts. </translate> <translate> <!--T:6--> * Media files with a particular subject. This group has subgroups such as "birds" and "man-made structures". </translate> <translate> <!--T:7--> * Media files created in a particular manner. For example, animations and pictures created with the use of a microscope. <!--T:8--> (Before adding new media files to these pages please see [[Commons talk:Quality imports]].) </translate> </noinclude> <translate> == Quality imports by technical merit == <!--T:24--> </translate> TO BE ADDED <translate> = Quality imports by type = <!--T:61--> </translate> TO BE ADDED <noinclude> [[Category:Commons projects-en|Quality imports]] [[Category:Quality imports| ]] </noinclude>

Draft 1

{{Underconstruction}} {{cat see also|Quality imports|lang={{PAGELANGUAGE}} }} <noinclude> {{shortcut|COM:QIM|lang={{PAGELANGUAGE}} }} <languages/> [[File:Quality Download logo 4.svg|35px]] <translate> <!--T:2--> '''Quality imports''' are diagrams or photographs that meet certain quality standards (which are mostly technical in nature) and are valuable for Wikimedia projects. FIGURE OUT WHAT TO DO WITH THIS. Unlike {{pg|Commons:Featured pictures|featured pictures}}, quality images must be the work of Commons contributors; they need not be extraordinary or outstanding, but merely well-composed and generally well-executed. END. <!--T:70--> There are currently '''{{PAGESINCATEGORY:Quality imports}}''' media files marked as Quality imports, which is roughly {{formatnum:{{#expr:({{PAGESINCATEGORY:Quality imports|files|R}}/{{NUMBEROFFILES:R}} round 5) * 100}} }}% of the available files ({{NUMBEROFFILES}}). <!--T:3--> This page highlights recently promoted files that meet the {{pg|Commons:Quality import guidelines|quality import guidelines}}. If you think that a particular file meets the criteria, you may nominate it at [[Commons:Quality imports candidates]]. All Quality imports can be found in a category called [[:Category:Quality imports|Quality imports]]. You can browse Quality imports by '''[[:Category:Quality imports by country|country]]''', '''[[:Category:Quality imports by subject|subject]]''', [[:Category:Quality imports by century|century]], or '''[[:Category:Quality imports by author|user/author]]'''. <!--T:4--> Quality images are divided into three subgroups. Any individual image may be placed in one or more of these groups: <!--T:5--> * Pictures with special technical merit. These images can be used as reference tools for teaching and explaining concepts in photography. </translate> <translate> <!--T:6--> * Pictures with a particular subject. This group has subgroups such as "birds" and "man-made structures". </translate> <translate> <!--T:7--> * Pictures created in a particular manner. For example, animations and pictures created with the use of a microscope. <!--T:8--> (Before adding new media files to these pages please see [[Commons talk:Quality imports]].) </translate> </noinclude> <translate> == Quality imports by technical merit == <!--T:24--> </translate> TO BE ADDED <translate> = Quality imports by type = <!--T:61--> </translate> TO BE ADDED <noinclude> [[Category:Commons projects-en|Quality imports]] [[Category:Quality imports| ]] </noinclude>

Tech News: 2023-18

MediaWiki message delivery 01:43, 2 May 2023 (UTC)

End of the Movement Charter ratification methodology community review

Copied from: https://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Commons:Village_pump&action=edit&section=37 & https://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Commons:Village_pump&oldid=759225392 .

Hello,

The Movement Charter Drafting Committee has concluded its first community review of the methodology draft, which will be used to ratify the Movement Charter in 2024.

This community review included feedback collection on Meta, on the Movement Strategy forum as well as two conversation hours with communities and one conversation with the Committees of the Wikimedia projects. MCDC greatly appreciates everyone's input. The recording of the ratification methodology presentation is here and documentation can be accessed here. The timeline of the next steps of the methodology is provided here.

The WMF support team will produce a report on the community input in May. MCDC will incorporate the feedback and share an updated version of the ratification methodology in August 2023. The MCDC will continue to outreach to stakeholders regarding the updated methodology in late 2023.

Thank you for your participation!

On behalf of the Movement Charter Drafting Committee,

Zuz (WMF) (talk) 15:23, 3 May 2023 (UTC)

Wikidata weekly summary #570

Figure out translations

When writing multi-lingual templates an issue seems to arise whenever a template is not perfectly marked for translation. Edits with incorrectly placed translation tags are likewise ineligible for saving, all translatable text needs to be marked with "Translate" at both the beginning and the end, when editing such pages all lines marked for translation must be consistently marked with T-1, T-2, T-3, T-4, T-5, Etc.

Wikipedia is a journey of answering the questions you have and sharing those answers with the world. --Donald Trung 『徵國單』 (No Fake News 💬) (WikiProject Numismatics 💴) (Articles 📚) 10:28, 8 May 2023 (UTC)

Wikipedia translation of the week: 2023-19

The Signpost: 8 May 2023

Wikidata weekly summary #571