User talk:Donald Trung/Archive 443

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Wikidata weekly summary #571

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This Month in GLAM: April 2023



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The Signpost: 8 May 2023

News, reports and features from the English Wikipedia's weekly journal about Wikipedia and Wikimedia

Photograph of Mr. Diem

Hello, Donald Trung,

Last time you asked me if I had any early portraits of Mr. Ngo Dinh Diem and my answer was no. However, it occurred to me today that there is a book that may help you. I found this book, which is titled "Đời Một Tổng Thống: Hình ảnh sử liệu độc đáo về con người Ngô Đình Diệm". I checked the photographs in the book, which include photographs of Ngo Dinh Diem as a young man, working as Tri-huyen, Tri-phu and Tuan-vu. Unfortunately, there are no photos of him as Thuong-thu, but these are closer to that period (he started as Tuan-vu in 1929 and became Thuong-thu in 1933).

The book was edited by Minh Hùng. You may find it online, if not, I can also send the PDF file to you by email. Actually, I have uploaded a photo from the book before.

I hope this may help you. 源義信 (talk) 06:02, 14 May 2023 (UTC)

源義信, this is great news, this means that I have access to an image of every Shangshu in 1933 for my draft "1933 reforms of the government of the Nguyễn dynasty" except for His Excellency Vương Tứ Đại (王賜大).
I'll send you an e-mail 📨 so you can send the file as an attachment in the response. (As I wasn't able to find it in a quick search, only the cover and it being used as a source at the British Broadcasting Corporation (BBC).
Hello, Donald Trung. Check your email—you've got mail!
Message added 源義信. You can remove this notice at any time by removing the {{You've got mail}} or {{YGM}} template. — --Donald Trung 『徵國單』 (No Fake News 💬) (WikiProject Numismatics 💴) (Articles 📚) 07:05, 14 May 2023 (UTC)

(This template doesn't work here. 😅😅😅)

Thank you so much for this wonderful update. --Donald Trung 『徵國單』 (No Fake News 💬) (WikiProject Numismatics 💴) (Articles 📚) 07:04, 14 May 2023 (UTC)
I have sent the book (attachment and download link) by email. 源義信 (talk) 07:30, 14 May 2023 (UTC)
源義信, thank you, I'll start uploading after doing the "Chau phe" of the Manchu Empire / Qing Dynasty, oddly enough you ended up in my spam box, I always find it weird how almost every human who sends me a message (or even Dutch government organisations and banks) end up in "Junk", while phishing scams just show up in my regular inbox or even "priority" inbox. 🤨🤨🤨 — Donald Trung 『徵國單』 (No Fake News 💬) (WikiProject Numismatics 💴) (Articles 📚) 07:32, 14 May 2023 (UTC)
Kind of an interesting thing, I noticed that the Công-Báo Việt-Nam issued by the Provisional Central Government of Vietnam was written in the Huế dialect when it was issued in Hanoi, but after the Provisional Central Government of Vietnam moved their capital city from Hanoi to Saigon-Cholon they suddenly started writing in the Hanoian dialect... In fact, the South Vietnamese government later would use a hybrid of Hanoian and Saigonese as its government language. I kind of notice that Hanoian became more prominent after the capital city of French Indo-China was moved from Saigon to Hanoi in 1902, if you read publications from Saigon from the 19th (nineteenth) century you'll find that they use heavy Saigonese dialect, but during the 20th (twentieth) century you'll slowly see more Hanoian influence, likewise, even newspapers published in Huế during the 1920's and 1930's sometimes use the Hanoian dialect.
They never address why they change the dialect they use, but if I were to guess Hanoian always had a prestige status and this was solidified with the move of the capital city (back) to Hanoi in 1902. Modern Vietnamese spelling isn't actually based on spoken Vietnamese, modern spoken Vietnamese is based on the 20th (twentieth) century Hanoian dialect while written Vietnamese is based on the 17th (seventeenth) century Hanoian dialect, these aren't remotely the same yet they never reformed it. I also noticed that in French Indo-China provincial publications often just used the local dialect with local conventions, this explains why the Huế dialect remained strong despite Hanoi outgrowing it in both size and prestige as the federal capital city of French Indo-China. — Donald Trung 『徵國單』 (No Fake News 💬) (WikiProject Numismatics 💴) (Articles 📚) 08:35, 14 May 2023 (UTC)
I forgot to add that they probably used the Huế dialect in Hanoi, but the Hanoian dialect in Saigon-Cholon because the people who filled the ranks of the Provisional Central Government of Vietnam were mandarins of the Southern Dynasty before 1945, while after Saigon-Cholon took over many people from the military of French Indo-China held important positions, I wouldn't be surprised if the French Indo-Chinese military used the Hanoian dialect as the Government-General was located in Hanoi and Hanoi was from where all co-ordination was done... — Donald Trung 『徵國單』 (No Fake News 💬) (WikiProject Numismatics 💴) (Articles 📚) 08:38, 14 May 2023 (UTC)

Here is something interesting I came across, I was reading the edit history of a page to see if it was ever moved before and found this comment that the IP address later edited out:

START QUOTE, ATTRIBUTED TO THE LINK ABOVE.

== Vietnamese culture ==

Vietnamese culture does not belong to East Asian cultural sphere or Sinosphere, only ignorant Vietnamese people, passionate about Chinese culture think that Vietnam belongs to East Asian cultural sphere. The Vietnamese who love Chinese culture and always want Vietnam to become part of Sinosphere are idiots, traitors to the nation. It can only be said that: “Vietnamese culture is transitional culture between Indosphere and Sinosphere”. If we say that Vietnamese culture belongs to Sinosphere, we are trampling on the 1000-year effort of fighting against the Chinese invaders to protect the Vietnamese culture of our ancestors. Vietnamese culture originated from Southeast Asian cultural sphere (Phùng Nguyên, Đồng Đậu, Gò Mun, Đông Sơn, Sa Huỳnh, Đồng Nai cultures) which has nothing to do with Sinosphere at all (The Phùng Nguyên, Đồng Đậu, Gò Mun, Đông Sơn, Sa Huỳnh, Đồng Nai cultures looks like to Indian culture or also likely the originating from India). However, now most of Vietnamese people, especially young people, do not understand that and even praise Sinosphere. Heartbreaking for Vietnamese people who always claim Chinese culture as their own, they also do despicable things like translating Vietnamese songs into Chinese. Use words of Chinese origin such as: Tiểu Tam, Tổng Tài, Bách Hợp, Đam Mỹ, Soái Ca, Soái Tỷ, Nam Thần, Hảo, etc. Currently, China's toxic cultural products such as Chinese Costume Movies (Phim Cổ Trang), Xianxia Movies (Phim Tiên Hiệp), Wuxia Movies (Phim Kiếm Hiệp), Chuanyue Movies (Phim Xuyên Không), Second Sino-Japanese War Movies (Phim Kháng Nhật), Chinese LGBT Movies, Chinese Horror Movies, Chinese Music (Ex: Độ ta không độ nàng), Chinese Mobile Games (Ex: Võ Lâm Truyền Kỳ Mobile, Tru Tiên 3D, etc.), Tiktok are imported into Vietnam. But young Vietnamese people do not understand these are extremely toxic things and still love them. Most young Vietnamese like some Chinese actors in Chinese movies such as: Dilraba Dilmurat (Địch Lệ Nhiệt Ba), Zhao Liying (Triệu Lệ Dĩnh), Yang Mi (Dương Mịch), Liu Yifei (Lưu Diệc Phi), Ju Jingyi (Cúc Tịnh Y), Hawick Lau (Lưu Khải Uy), Xiao Zhan (Tiêu Chiến), etc. Young Vietnamese people also tend to like to wear costumes called Viet Phuc (imitating Hanfu) and shoot historical MVs (Ex: Tự Tâm, Nước Chảy Hoa Trôi, etc.) even though these are not Vietnamese costumes and these MVs are propaganda of harmful cultures.. In addition, there are food containing chemicals, poor quality and counterfeit utensils imported from China through Vietnam. Sinosphere only includes countries: Chinese mainland (except Tibet, Xinjiang, Guangxi and Inner Mongolia), Hong Kong, Macau, Taiwan, Japan, North and South Korean Mongolian culture belong to Eastern European cultural sphere as Central Asian countries: Kazakhstan, Uzbekistan,… but Mongolian culture is a mixture of Eastern European cultural sphere and Sinosphere while other Central Asian countries are mixed of Eastern European cultural sphere and Islamic culture. Indosphere only includes countries: India, Sri Lanka, Bangladesh, Bhutan, Nepal, Myanmar, Thailand, Malaysia, Singapore, Indonesia, Philippines, Brunei and East Timor. The actual Indosphere only includes: India, Sri Lanka, Bhutan, Nepal, Myanmar and Thailand Bangladesh mix of Indosphere and Islamic culture Malaysia, Singapore, Indonesia, Brunei mix of Indosphere and Islamic, Western culture Philippines and East Timor mix of Indosphere and Western culture Indochina Culture only includes countries: Vietnam, Lao and Cambodian. Culture of three countries mix of Indosphere, Sinosphere and Western culture (French culture). Some Vietnamese people still spread superstitions things belonging to Sinosphere like the I Ching (Kinh Dịch), Feng Shui (Phong Thủy), Zi Wei Dou Shu (Tử Vi Đẩu Số), Sexagenary Cycle (Can Chi), 12 Zodiac Animals (12 Con Giáp), Four Holy Beasts (Tứ Linh), Yin and Yang (Âm Dương), Four Symbols (Tứ Tượng), Bagua (Bát Quái), Five Elements (Ngũ Hành), etc. Many people have unreasonably wasted money on these superstitions. Some other Vietnamese people propagate Talismans (Bùa Ngải), Necromancy (Lên Đồng), Requiem (Cầu Siêu), Sortilege (Xin Xăm), etc. Some others spread the worship of bogus Chinese gods such as Guan Gong (Quan Công), Kitchen God (Táo Quân), Caishen (Thần Tài), Tudigong (Thổ Công), Jade Emperor (Ngọc Hoàng Thượng Đế), etc. Some spread the teachings of Confucius such as Junzi (Quân Tử), Three Obediences and Four Virtues (Tam Tòng Tứ Đức), etc. All are superstitions. In addition, Vietnam has 100 million people but cannot find 10,000 people who know Han-Nom (<0.1%) and Han-Nom characters is no longer the official writting system of Vietnam, this is also evidence to conclude that Vietnam is not part of Sinosphere. However, there are still some Vietnamese people who have the idea of restoring the Han-Nom script (The Nom script imitating the Han characters is nothing called invented). In short, Vietnamese culture is affected by Sinosphere completely due to infection and poisoning, but Vietnamese culture has never belonged to Sinosphere. Chinese people and Chinese culture have always been Vietnam's arch-enemies, but most young people today don't understand it. Sinosphere/East Asian cultural sphere is a vague, illusory concept. Every country has its own culture, and the cultural influence of each other is very normal. But not all that have the same point must be grouped together. 62.14.234.232 (talk) 09:44, 18 March 2023 (UTC) Anonymous user 62.14.234.232

END QUOTE.

This was later changed to:

"Vietnamese culture belongs to East Asian cultural sphere ? Vietnamese culture does not belong to East Asian cultural sphere or Sinosphere because culture of Vietnam is transitional culture between Indosphere and Sinosphere, only Vietnamese people who love Chinese culture think that Vietnam belongs to East Asian cultural sphere.

Culture of Vietnam has the attribute of mixing between the Indosphere, Sinosphere and Western culture (French culture).

Sinosphere only includes countries: Chinese mainland (except Tibet, Xinjiang, Guangxi and Inner Mongolia), Hong Kong, Macau, Taiwan, Japan, North Korea and South Korea

Vietnamese culture originated from "Southeast Asian cultural sphere" (Phùng Nguyên, Đồng Đậu, Gò Mun, Đông Sơn, Sa Huỳnh) which has nothing to do with Sinosphere at all (The Phùng Nguyên, Đồng Đậu, Gò Mun, Đông Sơn, Sa Huỳnh cultures looks like to Indian culture or also likely the originating from India).

In addition, Vietnam has 100 million people but cannot find 10,000 people who know Han-Nom script (<0.1%) and Han-Nom script is no longer the official writting system of Vietnam, this is also evidence to conclude that Vietnam is not part of Sinosphere. However, there are still some Vietnamese people who have the idea of restoring the Han-Nom script.

62.14.234.232 (talk) 09:44, 18 March 2023 (UTC)"

While the IP address is Spanish there's little doubt that the person who wrote the comment is Vietnamese, the mentality written in the above texts is extremely common in Việt Nam and frankly quite bizarre, the quote "Sinosphere only includes countries: Chinese mainland (except Tibet, Xinjiang, Guangxi and Inner Mongolia), Hong Kong, Macau, Taiwan, Japan, North Korea and South Korea" as if there was more direct Chinese influence in Việt Nam than in Japan, in fact in Korea and Việt Nam Classical Chinese remained the only prestige language until the 20th (twentieth) century, while in Japan Classical Japanese shared this title. Both Korea and Việt Nam used the Confucian examination system with little change from Imperial China while Japan did not do this to the same degree. There seems to be this idea of "Southeastasianism" in Việt Nam which try to claim that Việt Nam has more in common with Indonesia, the Philippines, Thailand, Malaysia, Etc. than with any country in East Asia.

The origins of this mentality are in the Third (3rd) Indo-China War where the Socialist Republic of Việt Nam became the enemy of the People's Republic of China, before that nobody questioned the Chinese origins of most of Vietnamese culture. My guess is that because of this mentality there is a stigma against the celebration of anything that "looks Chinese" in Việt Nam, even if it's fully Vietnamese. For this reason very little interest online exists in Vietnamese culture before 1945 (ironically) outside of China. I see more Chinese people accurately covering the Nguyễn Dynasty and earlier Dynasties than Vietnamese people. It's quite bizarre honestly. --Donald Trung 『徵國單』 (No Fake News 💬) (WikiProject Numismatics 💴) (Articles 📚) 16:01, 14 May 2023 (UTC)

To add to the above, the claim "Vietnam has 100 million people but cannot find 10,000 people who know Han-Nom (<0.1%) and Han-Nom characters is no longer the official writting system of Vietnam, this is also evidence to conclude that Vietnam is not part of Sinosphere. However, there are still some Vietnamese people who have the idea of restoring the Han-Nom script (The Nom script imitating the Han characters is nothing called invented)." Is quite interesting, because the exact same claim could be made about North Korea, in North Korea knowledge of Traditional Chinese characters has completely disappeared and North Korea has propaganda very similar to Việt Nam, namely that Korean culture is ancient and Chinese influence is "foreign", that Chinese culture is "alien" in Korean history, and that Korea is somehow different and special. Korean nationalists and Vietnamese nationalists often fully agree with each other and use the exact same myths, seeing the above comment is like seeing someone poisoned 🤢 by an ideology speaking 🗣️ in that ideology. At the Vietnamese-language Wikipedia you rarely see Hán-Nôm characters outside of the title of the article, even if something was fully in Traditional Chinese characters there's almost never a Traditional Chinese transliteration, this same debate was held at the English-language Wikipedia over a decade ago and there the Vietnamese nationals largely voted to remove them while non-Vietnamese people recognised their educational value in those articles. I find it fascinating that you can read an entire library in Việt Nam about works fully in Classical Chinese and yet never see a single Traditional Chinese character. The more I see this type of discourse online the more I realise that Professor Liam Kelley is absolutely right. I also find it interesting that it was a Champa nationalist at the English-language Wikipedia trying to remove the Traditional Chinese characters from as much articles as possible or possibly omitting them. I wonder 🤔 how this discussion will evolve a decade from now... --Donald Trung 『徵國單』 (No Fake News 💬) (WikiProject Numismatics 💴) (Articles 📚) 16:29, 14 May 2023 (UTC)

Oh yeah, another part of the myth is the above claim "The Vietnamese who love Chinese culture and always want Vietnam to become part of Sinosphere are idiots, traitors to the nation. It can only be said that: “Vietnamese culture is transitional culture between Indosphere and Sinosphere”. If we say that Vietnamese culture belongs to Sinosphere, we are trampling on the 1000-year effort of fighting against the Chinese invaders to protect the Vietnamese culture of our ancestors." I can pinpoint the origins of this myth to an exact moment, namely the Sino-Vietnamese War again, well, even older, it kind of started as a Việt Minh myth during the First French Indo-China War, but spread globally during the second (2nd) French Indo-China War, this myth tried to make anti-colonial activities during the period of French domination seem like "an integral and ancient part of Vietnamese culture" yet until 1945 the myth was "Vietnamese people are culturally submissive and always suit to the dominant power, with Great France replacing China" and explain that the name "An Nam means "Pacified South" so the Vietnamese are naturally a people that avoid war and are bad at fighting wars", both of these myths have their origins in specific contexts, the idea of Vietnamese people always wanting to avoid war in favour of peace seems very ironic today where the country is seem as "a war, not a country" and a supposed "graveyard of empires" (also incorrectly attributed to Afghanistan due to modern myths and pseudo-history). In reality real, actual history has to take a backseat for these myths to take the front seat.

To me it's clear that History is simply offensive to some people, to the nationalist of any kind actual history is something offensive goes against the narrative of "the national myth", it's not something that they see as a tool of education but rather as "an integral part of the national spirit", Communist countries are especially prone to falling into these nationalist myths (this is ironic as originally Communism was an internationalist movement).

Here is also something interesting "Young Vietnamese people also tend to like to wear costumes called Viet Phuc (imitating Hanfu) and shoot historical MVs (Ex: Tự Tâm, Nước Chảy Hoa Trôi, etc.) even though these are not Vietnamese costumes and these MVs are propaganda of harmful cultures.. In addition, there are food containing chemicals, poor quality and counterfeit utensils imported from China through Vietnam." This is an incredibly absurd statement with historical precedent, the reason the myth of "bad Chinese quality" exists in Việt Nam is because when the Việt Cộng (VC, or "Victor Charlie's") were being supplied by the People's Republic of China the United States of America and the Republic of Vietnam (South Vietnam) made counterfeit Chinese equipment that would jam and fail in combat situations, this then spread a myth among the Communist Vietnamese than anything made in China (the People's Republic of China) must be of bad quality despite these things being made by the Americans. The comment about Việt Phúc strikes me as odd, Hán Phúc / Hanfu was actually banned in China until the 1910's, the Manchu Qing Dynasty wanted to eradicate traditional Chinese costumes and replace them with Manchu ones, the Vietnamese, Japanese, and Koreans at the time continued wearing Ming Dynasty-style clothings for centuries after the Manchu conquest of China, in the popular imagination the clothes worn at the time have become a symbol (ironically) of being different from the Chinese. The critique of music video's seems kind of... Well... Odd, but my guess is that to the author Vietnamese history begins on 2 September 1945, anything before that must be "Chinese propaganda". The line "even though these are not Vietnamese costumes" is especially odd, I wouldn't be surprised if "real Vietnamese costumes" by their definition only applies to the clothes worn by ethnic minorities, I noticed a trend in Hanoi where young children no longer wear traditional Ao Dai for ceremonial occasions but new Ao Dai that closely resemble the Indian-style / Indic clothes of various ethnic minorities that would have been considered "Barbarous" by the Vietnamese before 1945. There seems to be a Pro-Sinitic movement that receives a strong Anti-Sinitic backlash.

To some Vietnamese people "not being Chinese" is both where Vietnamese identity begins and ends. --Donald Trung 『徵國單』 (No Fake News 💬) (WikiProject Numismatics 💴) (Articles 📚) 19:14, 14 May 2023 (UTC)

Naked nationalism.

The most telling quote from the above diatribe is this: "In short, Vietnamese culture is affected by Sinosphere completely due to infection and poisoning, but Vietnamese culture has never belonged to Sinosphere. Chinese people and Chinese culture have always been Vietnam's arch-enemies, but most young people today don't understand it. Sinosphere/East Asian cultural sphere is a vague, illusory concept. Every country has its own culture, and the cultural influence of each other is very normal. But not all that have the same point must be grouped together." Namely the idea that culture could be transnational is something that nationalists hate, to the Dutch nationalist (for example) there is no "Western culture", Dutch culture is completely unique and cannot be compared to Belgian culture, German culture, British & Northern-Irish culture, Danish culture, Etc. there is no "European cultural sphere", this is despite the fact that almost everything seem as "intrinsically Dutch" is either extremely recent (stroopwafels, for example) or is something that every European country had but has largely been forgotten outside of the Netherlands (windmills, clogs / wooden shoes, Saint Nicholas Day, Martinmas, Etc.), these things are then called "Oerhollands" like anything "intrinsically German" is called "Uhrpreußisch" / "Uhrpreussisch" in Germany, or "Old English" in the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. I'm not sure if Belgium has an "Oerbrabants" / "Oervlaams" / "Oerlimburgs" / "Oerwaals", of whatever it's called there, but nationalists of all countries generally follow the same trends, the Chinese nationalist also talks about "the uniqueness of Chinese culture" and they use it to justify something "unique" to China. The pop culture of Vietnamese people during the 1930's would be considered "Chinese" to modern Vietnamese people, and oddly enough Hán-Nôm is seen as "less Vietnamese" than Latin script... Let that sink in, Latin script is seen as "more Vietnamese" than a script actually invented in Việt Nam and used there for around a millennium (Nôm) or a script that was used for multiple millennia (Hán).

What's interesting is that they attack young people for not understanding, this kind of tells me that this person was young or grew up during the Sino-Vietnamese War or immediately afterwards, when the whole idea of "Vietnamese identity" was based on this war with the People's Republic of China and the cause of Vietnamese poverty being this cold war between the two (2). The Democratic Republic of Việt Nam (North Vietnam) happily gave the South China Sea to their "eternal friends", but one (1) war later and the Socialist Republic of Việt Nam would claim the polar opposite. Imagine Europeans finding it controversial that they somehow belong to "Western culture", up until 1945 Việt Nam was in all aspects of its culture a miniature of China, sure things that had gone out of fashion in China had remained in Việt Nam and the cultures evolved separately, but the claim that Vietnamese culture is somehow outside of the cultural sphere China belonged to is extremely absurd. The only reason people deny this is political, it simply became politically incorrect after the Sino-Vietnamese War to state the obvious. --Donald Trung 『徵國單』 (No Fake News 💬) (WikiProject Numismatics 💴) (Articles 📚) 19:45, 14 May 2023 (UTC)

Looking at this again I realise that I turned this into a reply way too lengthy to expect any volunteer to read, I'll archive it because it's incredibly long and doesn't really concern the original subject. -- — Donald Trung 『徵國單』 (No Fake News 💬) (WikiProject Numismatics 💴) (Articles 📚) 19:47, 14 May 2023 (UTC)

Wikidata weekly summary #572

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    • EntitySchemas: We've continued work on the new datatype to link to EntitySchemas in statements. (phab:T214884)
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