Commons:Picture of the Year/2007/Preparation

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POTY barnstar 1-2007.svg
POTY barnstar 1-2007.svg

Second Annual Wikimedia Commons Picture of the Year

(Preparation· (Translations· Discussion · Organising committee · Issues / Help

Introduction · Dates · Voting · Round 1: Galleries · Round 2: Finalists · Results · Ponkan cd.png Download



Some practical considerations[edit]

I'm busy implementing the software, and it is time that we start deciding stuff:

  • Eligibility limit. Users registered before 1 November 2007 and at least 50 edits at one Wikimedia project?
  • Voting. Per category. How do we create the categories? First a nomination round?
  • Time schedule. I will be away from 22 December. If we want a calender, we need to have the winners half december. I propose the following:
    • Pre-selection/nominations (if necessary): 19 November - 28 November (10 days)
    • First round: 1 December - 7 December.
    • Second round: 10 December - 14 December (5 days)
      • From previous year's experience, I can say that processing the results may take some time... even if we use proper voting software. If we don't need a pre-selection, the time scheme can of course be more relaxed.
    • Image elibility. January - 14 November 2007?
    • Voting type: One vote per category, multiple votes per category?

Comments are appreciated. -- Bryan (talk to me) 10:21, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

Voter eligibility[edit]

50 is too low! I think the same as last year should be fine, which I believe was 400. And they have to be done by the time voting opens. pfctdayelise (说什么?) 12:37, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

meh - compromise 100/200 area maybe? 400 may be a little high tho I agree 50 is low --Herby talk thyme 12:41, 8 October 2007 (UTC)
And they have to be done by the time voting opens. is hard to implement. But it could of course be done. -- Bryan (talk to me) 14:00, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

100-200 seems about right. --MichaelMaggs 17:13, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

Image organisation and voting system[edit]

I'm working on creating categories at the moment. I think for the first round we should use approval voting - you can vote for as many or few as you want -- in all categories. And the images that go to the final, are a combination of the highest-vote-receiving and the category winners. Using the highest-vote-receivers means that if the 10 best images are all in the same category, they could all go to the final. Using the category winners ensures a range of themes and types (and remember most people will probably only vote in the final). So I think top 15 or 20 by raw votes + top 1 or 2 from each category (if they weren't already included by the raw votes). pfctdayelise (说什么?) 12:37, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

Dates[edit]

First round 1-7th, second round 10-14th Dec seems OK to me. Definitely processing time is needed in between. pfctdayelise (说什么?) 12:37, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

Image eligibility[edit]

I think all FPs from 1 Jan 2007 to 30 Nov 2007.

I think we should also have a separate QI award (and QI that is not FP), maybe have that as a "write-in" category rather than list them all, and maybe just run it during the final. pfctdayelise (说什么?) 12:37, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

Voting[edit]

Commons:Picture of the Year/2007/Voting. -- Bryan (talk to me) 11:52, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

(BitTorrent) archive[edit]

We probably want this. I'll take care of this as well, just like last year. I'll also put of the old archive up for download. -- Bryan (talk to me) 16:36, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

I agree. As part of this, or separate to it, it would be cool to have a ready cache of say 300px size thumbs, and encourage people to hotlink those thumbs outside Wikimedia if they want. pfctdayelise (说什么?) 11:50, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

Translation[edit]

It would be good if we could finalise the strings that will need translation about a week before we start, so we have that time to aggressively hunt down translators. :) I think we should aim for complete or near-complete translation in the following languages:

  • en
  • de
  • es
  • fr
  • nl
  • pl
  • it
  • ja
  • ru
  • zh
  • sv
  • pt
  • no
  • fi

That's 14, the top 14 Wikipedias, and all the Wikipedias with 100 000+ articles in natural languages (Volapük also sneaks in but as a constructed language I don't consider it a translation priority). This is not to say that translations in other languages aren't keenly sought or warmly welcomed. Indeed they are. Nonetheless having priorities helps you know where to start. --pfctdayelise (说什么?) 12:55, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

I will put up the strings for translation for the software later this week (probably Wednesday/Thursday). In the meantime we will have to make messages to get people voting, etc. -- Bryan (talk to me) 13:59, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

Banners[edit]

The banners/medals of last year should be transformed to 2007, or somebody has to make new ones. -- Bryan (talk to me) 09:24, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

{{Commons:Picture of the Year/2007/banner}}

POTY barnstar 1-2007.svg

Interested in honouring the best of the best? Vote in the Commons Picture of the Year competition 2007
Voting to select the finalists is open from 10 January until 17 January.
العربية | Deutsch | English | español | فارسی | suomi | français | Gaeilge | magyar | italiano | 日本語 | Nederlands | norsk bokmål | polski | português | русский | српски / srpski | svenska | 中文(简体)‎ | 中文(繁體)‎ | +/−

Software[edit]

Considering the fact that limesurvey is one big security hole, I have written my own voting software. Try it at http://tools.wikimedia.de/~bryan/poty/vote?action=token&wiki=commons.wikimedia.org&username=<USERNAME HERE>. It should probably also work with meta and enwb and enwp. -- Bryan (talk to me) 19:21, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

Features[edit]

  • Users get their voting tokens emailed by wiki mail. Available for all 714 wikis.
  • Email limiter
    • what does this mean? pfctdayelise (说什么?) 13:54, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
      • That you cannot get a token more than twice. For people who find it funny spamming somebody else' mail box by reloading the page a few hundred times. -- Bryan (talk to me) 14:05, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
  • Public list of voters
  • Per category voting
  • Public/Public to voters/Private list of votes, configurable per category
  • Approval/Single vote voting
  • SQL injection proof ;)

... and more that I still have to document. If there is anything wanted, please let me know, preferably before the start. -- Bryan (talk to me) 19:55, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

  • localisable (I think you have this but forgot to mention it :))
  • optional comment field for any vote
  • summarisation of votes? (for the committee)

--pfctdayelise (说什么?) 13:54, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

Proposed categories for round 1[edit]

My proposed categories are here: User:Pfctdayelise/POTY07 categories. There will be 14 categories (the Insects one still needs splitting in two).

So if you have any arguments about particular images being placed in particular categories, now would be a good time to hear them. :)

For the voting, I propose that (A) we use approval voting without limitation, and (B) the top 2 images by number of votes per category go through, plus any images in the top 20 ranking by votes (ignoring categories). So we will likely have 30 to 40 images for the final. Using a two-pronged approach ensures no image has its chance to make the final damaged by being in an under- or over-populated, or under- or over-popular, category. --pfctdayelise (说什么?) 15:05, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

Err - "flowers & plants" & "flowers & insects", not sure about that. Looks good otherwise --Herby talk thyme 15:10, 14 October 2007 (UTC)
Yeah, should be "flowers or plants". Maybe just "plants" then. --pfctdayelise (说什么?) 12:19, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
"Yeah" too, I was thinking it thro some more yesterday but your idea is better than anything I came up with! "Plants" sound good --Herby talk thyme 12:32, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
I have commented on the categories below. --MichaelMaggs 17:14, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

Some opinions on important topics[edit]

I’m entering late in this discussion and maybe I don’t fully understand all the details. Here are a couple of important topics I think should be further discussed and clearly settled:

  1. Time schedule: I don’t see the point in shortening the FP year to 11 months. In my opinion all 2007 pictures should be part of the contest which would take place during January 2008. This is a strong opinion.
  2. Categories and awards: I approve the creation of categories (to help voters browsing and comparing the candidates according to their preferences) and I also agree with the creation of category awards. But I don’t agree that separate votings should be made, or that one or two picture from each category should have to pass to the second round; that would insert an unnecessary bias into the contest. In my opinion there would be 3 prices, like last year, and also a special price for each category (some of them might not be awarded depending on the pictures which passed to the 2nd round). Also, all pictures going to the 2nd round would receive a “runner-up” award. I suggest the number of pictures going to the final to be equal to twice the nr of categories.
  3. Voting: why an unlimited number of votes per user? I would limit the number of votes to, at maximum, the number of categories. - Alvesgaspar 14:18, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
"Shortening the FP year" was my idea so that we could use the winners to create calendars, for example.It is somewhat unnatural the first time around but in future years we would have 12 months worth of candidates. I am not too fussed but I would like to hear what others think. In a practical sense it may be better as we avoid clashing with the fundraiser.
Categories: I don't totally understand what you propose. Please explain more. My reasoning for including both raw-votes-winners and category-winners is this:
  • You can't force people to vote in all categories. Therefore, some categories may be less looked at due to perceived "boring" subjects.
  • Categories are not equally well represented. For example our pictures of people are much less than pictures of arthropods. So some authors may complain that their works have a bias for or against them, because they are in categories that have many or few other items in them. If the idea is purely about quality, it shouldn't matter if there are 50 other photos of a similar subject or not.
  • Any formation of the categories will be somewhat arbitrary and subject to bias - related above due to some categories being overrepresented and others underrepresented. For example "insects with flowers" is not a very natural category. But we have enough photos to form that category.
Number of votes: In a purely technical sense, we can either offer people one vote per category or as many as they like (approval). I don't think there's an easy way to offer "up to 5", as an example. One vote or approval voting are also the easiest to count. Approval voting is quite a common method that is also used in the WMF Board elections for example. pfctdayelise (说什么?) 13:57, 16 October 2007 (UTC)
  • Comments on pfctdayelise's response
    • FP year - My problem is not the shortening of the period in 2007 but the creation of an artificial FP year from December to November. I don't understand what you mean by "clashing with the fundraiser".
    • Categories: - Though I agree with the creation of categories it is important that all pictures are shown together, to avoid the "boring" sindrome. Of course, all should have a tag with its category. Also, people should use their votes as they wish, disregarding the existance of categories.
    • Votes and awards - Maybe "twice the number of categories" is a better solution for the number of votes per user in the first round, considering the number of awards. I still don't have a strong opinion on how to handle votes on the final round. I agree with MichaelMaggs below on the awards.
    • Final round - Twice (or 3 times?) the number of categories is a possibility for the number of pictures to pass to the final round. Those should be simply the most voted pictures in the whole bunch. - Alvesgaspar 23:08, 16 October 2007 (UTC)
      • I somewhat agree with you that we should have the top images in the final, but on the other hand I also agree with pfctdayelise that diversity would be good. But perhaps by per-category voting will ensure by itself that a diverse number of images will pass, even when just the top number of votes is chosen for the final. -- Bryan (talk to me) 19:27, 17 October 2007 (UTC)
      • I want to note that I will not be available the first week of January. That is of course not a problem, since the software is open source and we certainly have people who would be willing to run it in my absence. So from a totally personal point of view I would like the POTY either before or after that ;) I also think that more potential voters like me will not be online from the Christmas to the first weekend of January. And a calendar (if managable) would be very cool of course. -- Bryan (talk to me) 19:32, 17 October 2007 (UTC)
      • To Alvesgaspar: perhaps we have different views about categories. My view now is that we need to use them to reduce the cognitive (and bandwidth) demand on the voter. It is simply not reasonable to show people over 300 photos. There is just no way that more than a handful of people will even come close to looking at them all. Voting by a category or 20-30 is a much more acceptable approach. pfctdayelise (说什么?) 12:38, 18 October 2007 (UTC)
      • Also about the fundraiser: the WMF fundraiser is likely to be held at the same time as POTY if we do it in Nov/Dec. This will reduce the attention we can call within the Wikimedia community to the POTY competition, reduce availability of translators, and reduce the Sitenotice space we can use! None of these are the end of the world though, especially if we are organised. pfctdayelise (说什么?) 12:40, 18 October 2007 (UTC)
      • To 说什么?: I don't undesrtand. Then December shouldn't be a good time for POTY ! - Alvesgaspar 17:09, 19 October 2007 (UTC)
        • Er, that was my point when I said they would "clash"? pfctdayelise (说什么?) 01:39, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

More input[edit]

I, too, am a bit late joing the discussion.

Software: The voting software seems very impressive: I presume users will be able to see thumbnails as they vote, not just links to the images?

Voting: Last year, users could not vote for their own images, which caused big problems when vote-checking. I think we should remove that limitation this time. It will simplify things a lot, and will at worst just add one vote to each Wikimedian-created image.

Period: An 11-month period seems ok this time, to allow the announcement of the winner to be made in early January. After that, press announcements relating to 2007 get to be of less interest. Next year and onwards we should have the full 12 months.

Categories: I'm concerned about both the number of categories, and the arbitary nature of some of them (eg "insects with flowers"). We don't need to have 12 categories just so that we can make a calendar. Some categories may be rather low on numbers, and might result in winners which are perhaps not as impressive as they might be. Having non-impressive winners is, in my view, undesirable as it doesn't show Commons off to the best extent. If categories are considered useful at all I would like to see them restricted to fewer, and with slightly more 'natural' titles. For example:

  • 1. Birds
  • 2. Mammals
  • 3. Animals (other)
  • 4. Plants
  • 5. Landscapes
  • 6. The built environment (including buildings and man-made contructions)
  • 7. Diagrams and illustrations
  • 8. People and human activities
  • 9. Miscellaneous (including objects, satellite, fire, aircraft, boats etc)

with special prizes for:

  • 1. Overall winner, Picture of the Year (all images eligible)
  • 2. Wikimedian Picture of the Year (work created by a Wikimedian)
  • 3. Non-Wikimedian Picture of the Year (non-Wikimedia source)
  • 4. Category winners.

It's not IMO a good idea to force each category to have a 'winner'. There may be some categories where no category prize is awarded if none of the images get enough votes to go through to round 2.

I'm less sure of the need for the others, and am very wary of making things too complicated.

Eligibility: It's been suggested that the overall Picture of the Year award should be restricted to Wikimedian images. I don't agree: why should POTY exclude outside images when they are just as eligible for FP consideration?

Rounds: How to decide which images go forward to round 2? I'd like to see the top n images go forward, regardless of category. Approval voting across all categories would be fine for that (eg vote for as many or as few images as you wish). Don't have strong views on what n should be. Perhaps 20? Then, in round 2 voters vote separately in each remaining category - those that have not been knocked out.

--MichaelMaggs 17:22, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

OK about categories... there are two ways we can look at it. One is as a topic comparison thing which was my initial thoughts. The second is as a way to reduce the demand on the voter. This is important, expecting people to review 300+ images is in no way realistic... so the categories I've constructed have 20-30 images each. If we went purely by topic, arthropods would have about 60 and... well, what do you FPC folks think about that? It will make competition much more tight among people who photograph arthropods compared to, say, people. But maybe that will be a good incentive for the future, to branch out?? --pfctdayelise (说什么?) 12:46, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

I'm not sure how many images voters had to look at in round 1 last year - maybe 250? They were all shown in thumbnails which voters could click on to see in full size, without any attempt to restrict to categories. I have to say that didn't seem to worry anyone at that time, and indeed many voters clearly took a lot of care when choosing just 5 out of the full list. I'm unclear why voters shouldn't simply be asked to look through this year's complete list in the same way and simply pick as many or as few as they want, as an approval vote to go to round 2. Only then does voting by category start, for those categories that have images that have gone through. By all means use categories to label images in stage 1, but don't restrict to per-category voting. Otherwise, you either have a bias with different categories having different numbers of images, or you consruct artificial categories which are very unnatural. I'd prefer to avoid both.

We need some more opinions here. --MichaelMaggs 16:18, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

  • Agree with MichaelMaggs on the category issue (last year there were 352 pictures!). Also, I can live with the approval type of voting in the first round. But we still have to think how to handle round two to allow the election of the winners in the various categories. Alvesgaspar 17:16, 19 October 2007 (UTC)
    • I can assure you that it were 321 ;) (I counted the votes by hand last time) Up to September we are already at 340... which means that we easily will make the 400. I think that the best idea for the first round is to present the images to the users per-category, but let the overall top 30-40 go to the final. Presenting the users the images in categories will probably already bias the voters in a more or less categorywise voting, which will ensure some diversity, while not forcing users to do so. -- Bryan (talk to me) 21:12, 19 October 2007 (UTC)
      • OK, that works for me. Present images by category, but don't force any maximum or minimum votes in the first round. --MichaelMaggs 21:18, 19 October 2007 (UTC)
        • Bryan, sounds good. That way we can also offer a single gallery if people really want.
        • The gallery last year had 321 images and that page was around 2.5mb. I personally much prefer using a larger gallery like this, which would make the page 2x or 4x bigger.. and then add another 80 images...! It's a little bit mad. I think Bryan's suggestion is a good compromise. pfctdayelise (说什么?) 01:45, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

Software layout[edit]

Poty2007 voting 1.png
Poty2007 voting 2.png

I'm not really sure about this. Maybe a "gallery view" is better, where the comment text boxes are shown beneath the images? -- Bryan (talk to me) 09:22, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

  • A gallery view would be best I think, as it allows voters to compare images without as much scrolling. What will happen to the comments? Presumably they will be available for viewing during the stage 2 vote? --MichaelMaggs 16:55, 20 October 2007 (UTC)
    • Good point on the comments - probably we should only collect them on round 2. I definitely agree - put the user stuff below the image. Much better use of screen real estate. :) pfctdayelise (说什么?) 09:05, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

Second version. -- Bryan (talk to me) 14:45, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

  • Thanks looks very good to me Bryan - thanks for the work --Herby talk thyme 14:47, 23 October 2007 (UTC)
  • Yes, the second version looks great, thank you! Where do we put our vote? - Alvesgaspar 15:17, 23 October 2007 (UTC)
    • You need to tick the checkbox next to the title, below the image. Is this not clear? Any suggestions to make it more clear? Maybe an explicit "vote for this image" button. -- Bryan (talk to me) 20:29, 23 October 2007 (UTC)
  • Looks good to me, too. --MichaelMaggs 16:04, 23 October 2007 (UTC)
  • Looks great. Good job. Lycaon 16:12, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

Please test the voting software[edit]

Go to //commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Commons:Picture_of_the_Year/2007/Voting&withJS=MediaWiki:Poty2007.js and follow the instructions on that page to vote. Please leave a comment if it is not working or the instructions are unclear. Note that the we still need to work out which categories we divide the stuff in. -- Bryan (talk to me) 09:22, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

Tested yesterday (@Meta) and worked just fine for me --Herby talk thyme 09:34, 30 October 2007 (UTC)
  • When you first visit the POTY page (and it sends you the token), it should say more big and bold CHECK YOUR EMAIL FOR THE VOTING TOKEN LINK.
  • There should be a page in the 'data' menu or just on the front which briefly explains how voting works.
  • Um, well that is good, but just like a paragraph "Round 1 has raw approval voting. You can vote for as many images as you like in as many categories as you like. The categories only arrange images thematically - only the votes determine the finalists." pfctdayelise (说什么?) 13:51, 30 October 2007 (UTC)
  • On the category views, the tick box should be directly above the comment box for the same image, rather than having them so separated.
  • Are the pictures randomised when they are shown?
  • Pictures are randomized per user. This means that each time you load the category, you see them in the same order, to prevent annoyance, but you see them in a different order than another user (try it with another account). -- Bryan (talk to me) 13:35, 30 October 2007 (UTC)
  • Foucault_pendulum_animated.gif in illustrations failed to show up for me. (large size, small was ok)
  • Yes, some of the large pictures are broken and I have not checked them yet. -- Bryan (talk to me) 13:35, 30 October 2007 (UTC)
  • ✓ Done -- Bryan (talk to me) 20:43, 1 November 2007 (UTC)
  • On the index page it would be good to have Category name (number of images) like Arthropods (72)
  • Sure, will do that later. -- Bryan (talk to me) 13:35, 30 October 2007 (UTC)
  • When I viewed a category but failed to vote it borked ("Something went wrong! Please report this error! ") Would be good to maybe confirm "Are you sure you didn't want to vote for anything in this category?". (OK what happened was I hit "submit" but I actually wanted to just go back to the index view. So maybe have a separate button for that)
  • Fixed that, I will add a return button later.
  • It would be cool if it could remember my votes overall, not just for the last category I voted in. (I see you can re-enter a category and it remembers your votes in it already.) Would be cool to separate the "already voted in" categories from the "not yet voted in" ones.
  • It feels like there should be a button "finally submit all my votes" or "logout" or something.
  • Don't know whether that is necessary... votes are saved when you hit submit. Maybe a back-to-commons link? -- Bryan (talk to me) 13:35, 30 October 2007 (UTC)
  • It seems like you can revisit and change your votes, correct? I applied for another token and it sent me a new email with the same link, my votes already there, and no problem. That's cool, but we should tell people (on the site and in the email). Maybe just say "Your votes are saved whenever you click 'Submit'." pfctdayelise (说什么?) 13:51, 30 October 2007 (UTC)
  • Or change the text to "Save your vote" ? -- Bryan (talk to me) 11:59, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
  • Maybe would be good to have a link in the 'data' menu that is like 'View on Commons' so there is like a "public" link to the galleries, that people can share, and also look out without being logged in to vote.
  • Do you mean a link per gallery or just a general link to the gallery index? -- Bryan (talk to me) 13:35, 30 October 2007 (UTC)
  • Nice to see 'Author: NASA, License: PD', but be careful on the illustrations. (PD-old?)
  • Not sure what you mean? -- Bryan (talk to me) 13:35, 30 October 2007 (UTC)
  • Some of the illustrations have Wikimedia users listed as the authors. They are the scanners, I think, not the authors. pfctdayelise (说什么?) 13:51, 30 October 2007 (UTC)
  • Would it be possible to change the panorama category only to one-per-line?
Hm. Maybe -- Bryan (talk to me) 13:35, 30 October 2007 (UTC)
  • I guess we will need some explanation text when we decide what to do about QI :)
I have to say I will be so happy if we do plain approval voting, because there are so many awesome photos. :) pfctdayelise (说什么?) 12:52, 30 October 2007 (UTC)
Image:F-15 vertical deploy.jpg when this comes up in the group list it say License:PD is it possible to change these so that it shows licensing as PD-USGov-Military-Air Force or id the Author as USAF. Gnangarra 05:58, 31 October 2007 (UTC)
I know its only a test setup category name Animals that are not mammals, birds or insects (test) shouldnt it be Animals that are not mammals, birds or arthropods (test) or name Arthropods as insects. On the live version they should be the same... Gnangarra 06:01, 31 October 2007 (UTC)
Cc-by-sa-2.5,2.0,1.0 should it not be CC-by-SA-2.5,2.0,1.0 capatilised? Gnangarra 06:04, 31 October 2007 (UTC)
With the test its gives multiple tokens to the same account. Gnangarra 06:15, 31 October 2007 (UTC), even after cache refresh and deleting cookies it came up with prior votes from the other tokin. Gnangarra 06:24, 31 October 2007 (UTC)
I think that is intentional. pfctdayelise (说什么?) 11:26, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
Yes it is. It's to prevent people from stealing your tokens. -- Bryan (talk to me) 11:59, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

Software issues[edit]

  • RTL support. I imagine your software is not designed for this. :) What do you think about it? We could put a call out now for Arabic or Hebrew, and if someone volunteers to spend some time helping, work on it now. If no one volunteers I don't think they can complain too much about crap interface. pfctdayelise (说什么?) 11:26, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
  • No clue about that I think making the sidebar appear on the right side of the screen for some specific languages is too much work. -- Bryan (talk to me) 12:03, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
  • That's sad...wouldn't it just be a matter of a different CSS sheet (float right instead of left) and wrap all text in dir=rtl tags? pfctdayelise (说什么?) 05:13, 3 November 2007 (UTC)
  • What will happen with the final? Will voters need to reapply for a token? Will the old link still work? Will people who voted in the first get a reminder to vote in the second if they don't remember after some days? Will people be able to vote in only the final? (certainly hope so :)) --pfctdayelise (说什么?) 11:26, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
  • Tokens expire when you use them to prevent people from stealing tokens. I was thinking that people are automatically sent an email at the start of the final? -- Bryan (talk to me) 12:03, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
  • What's the archive status or plans? I think you told me this but I forget. pfctdayelise (说什么?) 11:27, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
  • The plans are that I'm going to ask the devs to put the old archive + the new archive I'm going to make on download.wikimedia.org. I have already put the relevant data in a database, so generating this archive is something fairly easy.
  • Are you planning to ask/force some other dev types to do a security/data audit? It would suck if we found out halfway through that half the votes weren't logged correctly or something. :) pfctdayelise (说什么?) 11:30, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
  • Everybody note that the software is open source so please take a look at it if you know some Python. -- Bryan (talk to me) 09:39, 3 November 2007 (UTC)
  • Is there something to stop people requesting tokens for other people and thus email spamming them? Does it only send like one or two tokens per account? pfctdayelise (说什么?) 11:35, 2 November 2007 (UTC) You already said yes to this. pfctdayelise (说什么?) 11:36, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
  • People can only request a token twice. After that they cannot request one anymore, until they visit the voting page. The counter will then be reset. -- Bryan (talk to me) 12:03, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

Decisions needed[edit]

BTW: the reason we need to decide these things is so there is enough time to prepare translations (without having a panic and everything at the last minute).

eligibility

  • Voter eligibility: 50 is too low, 400 is too high. Is 200 OK?
  • Symbol support vote.svg Support 200 -- Bryan (talk to me) 12:15, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
  • Symbol support vote.svg Support 200, in any one project -- sufficient to enable new users to comment, prevent other other issues. Gnangarra 06:29, 3 November 2007 (UTC)
  • Symbol support vote.svg Support 200 -- Alvesgaspar 11:19, 3 November 2007 (UTC)
  • Symbol support vote.svg Support} 200 in any one project, per Gnangarra. Giggy\Talk 23:40, 3 November 2007 (UTC)
  • Symbol support vote.svg Support 200 --MichaelMaggs 12:37, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
  • Symbol support vote.svg Support 200 would be fine -- Lycaon 13:49, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

Dates

  • Dates: we really need to decide this soon:
    • December option: First round: 1-7 Dec, Second round: 10-14 Dec (5 days). Pro: people are into "end of year" mood, we can produce calendars etc with the winners. Con: coincides with fundraiser (can't use sitenotice), doesn't count all of 2007.
    • January option: First round: 10-17 Jan, Second round: 20-24 Jan (5 days). Pro: can use all of 2007 FPs, not coinciding with fundraiser. Con: People might be in holiday mode? (esp. me & Bryan...), can't really do calendar.
  • I'll be having very limited internet access from 23 Dec - 5 Jan, so either options are fine to me. -- Bryan (talk to me) 12:15, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
  • either option, does calender need to be Jan-Dec? Gnangarra 06:29, 3 November 2007 (UTC)
  • Symbol support vote.svg Support January option -- Alvesgaspar 11:07, 3 November 2007 (UTC)
  • Symbol support vote.svg Support January option -- Lycaon 13:50, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

Method

  • Voting method round 1: Is everyone happy enough with arbitrary category presentation & raw approval voting for round 1? How many make it to the final? Top 20?
    • Symbol support vote.svg Support raw approval in round 1 (though I would prefer a limited # of votes per user). Twice the number of categories seems fine to make it to the final (around 20?) - Alvesgaspar 11:18, 3 November 2007 (UTC)
  • Voting method round 2: Approval again, or single vote?
  • I would prefer a single vote for round 2. -- Bryan (talk to me) 12:15, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
round one is fine the exceptional will rise to the top any category, single vote rnd 2. Gnangarra 06:29, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

Prizes'

  • Prizes: at the moment it looks like single Picture of the Year, with unofficial category winners. Any objections? Other suggestions?
    • Much better to have 3 prices, like last year. It would be nice to have also category prices, but it's still not clear in my head how to do it. Just one vote per user seems short to elect all winners. -- Alvesgaspar 11:18, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

OK, the conclusions seem clear...

  • Voting: 200 edit requirement, single account on a single project. one person with multiple eligible accounts can still only vote once.
  • Voting method, round 1: raw approval voting, arbitrary presentation categories. Top N images go to final. N =2x number of categories.
  • Voting method, round 2 (final): single vote.
  • Dates: January. Disappointing lack of input...but I can settle for a 08-09 financial calendar. ;) The extra time won't hurt for organisation, though I think I will be busier in January than Dec so we will need some more people to step up so it runs smoothly.
  • Prizes: Picture of the Year and two runners-up (as last year).

Speak now or forever12 months hold your peace. --pfctdayelise (说什么?) 12:12, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

Edit requirement should state "as of" (date of begin of voting). — xaosflux Talk 03:00, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

Messages[edit]

Please correct/change/fill in the messages on Commons:Picture_of_the_Year/2007/Translations#English. Please only start translating when a message in English is finished. -- Bryan (talk to me) 12:50, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

What's next[edit]

  • Dates: 10-17 Jan, Second round: 20-24 Jan (5 days).

We now have about 6 weeks to finalise the English messages and get as many translations as possible. Also get some more committee members. Also prepare winner's images (the SVG award things).

  • 31 Dec: entries close. We can then finalise the list of eligible images and enter the categories in the software. We can also create the archive for download.wikimedia.org .
  • 8 Jan: spam all Wikimedia channels. :) (should we spam twice, like "coming soon" and "now open"?)
  • ~ 8 Jan: upload final versions of all translations
  • 10-17 Jan: respond to any help requests, check voter log for possible fraud.
  • 18-19 Jan: double, triple, quadruple check tallies
  • 19/20 Jan: announce final voting open
  • 25 Jan: double, triple, quadruple check tallies, announce winners.

Commons:Picture of the Year/2007/Translations[edit]

Translation is now open. Please fill in as many translations as possible before Christmas. -- Bryan (talk to me) 20:16, 17 November 2007 (UTC)

I spammed some non-English VPs. pfctdayelise (说什么?) 12:50, 28 November 2007 (UTC)
Maybe also spam commons-l? -- Bryan (talk to me) 17:57, 2 December 2007 (UTC)
Done. After New Year once we get the categories done, we will have to start approaching individuals and begging politely. :) --pfctdayelise (说什么?) 12:59, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

Categories[edit]

Time to decide about the categories. Do we keep the current, or are people in favor of mixing them all up? -- Bryan (talk to me) 20:16, 17 November 2007 (UTC)

Above, I suggested the following:
  • 1. Birds
  • 2. Mammals
  • 3. Animals (other)
  • 4. Plants
  • 5. Landscapes
  • 6. The built environment (including buildings and man-made contructions)
  • 7. Diagrams and illustrations
  • 8. People and human activities
  • 9. Miscellaneous (including objects, satellite, fire, aircraft, boats etc)

with special prizes for:

  • 1. Overall winner, Picture of the Year (all images eligible)
  • 2. Wikimedian Picture of the Year (work created by a Wikimedian)
  • 3. Non-Wikimedian Picture of the Year (non-Wikimedia source)
  • 4. Category winners.

--MichaelMaggs 21:02, 17 November 2007 (UTC)

I think you need to include arthropods, too??
I think it is better if we don't have category winners this year and leave them as just "presentational" or "thematic". There has not been enough discussion about having separate category "awards".
Birds and Landscapes will need to be split, like Birds 1 & Birds 2, because they are too big. Also no special cat for panoramas? pfctdayelise (说什么?) 13:10, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

That would be a shame, but I agree there hasn't been much interest in discussing categories. I assume we will at the very least have a prize for the best image created by a Wikimedian as well as the overall POTY prize, and that there will be two runner up prizes as last year. --MichaelMaggs 16:26, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

Comments[edit]

The software allows an (optional) comment field. For which parts of the competition should we allow comments? What should we do with them? -- Bryan (talk to me) 19:24, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

Only for the final, and use them in results pages, press quotes etc as last year. Voters should not see others' comments as they are voting. --MichaelMaggs 19:47, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

Downtime[edit]

We are moving to a new permanent stable server, therefore we are experiencing some downtime. -- Bryan (talk to me) 10:34, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

fi.wikinews[edit]

Voting software is telling me that Finnish Wikinews doesn't exist. Any fix to this? --AtteL 18:31, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

Yay, now we have images[edit]

Thanks to LadyofHats :)

--pfctdayelise (说什么?) 23:45, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

Dates?[edit]

Are the dates including or excluding the last day? So is it:

  • 10 Jan. 00:00 UTC to 16 Jan. 23:59 UTC

or

  • 10 Jan. 00:00 UTC to 17 Jan. 23:59 UTC

-- Bryan (talk to me) 20:32, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

Inclusive I think. 7x24 hours.
BTW did you get a message from User:Jhs? He experienced some errors in the software. pfctdayelise (说什么?) 00:03, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

Commons:Picture of the Year/2007/Galleries - one last check[edit]

Hi, please have one last check of Commons:Picture of the Year/2007/Galleries! Before I can tell our translators it is finalised. Are any minor rearrangements needed? (Did I put all the mammals in Mammals? Are all the things in Arthropods actually arthropods?) Please move any if necessary and adjust the totals, or just make suggestions here.

I will only allow about 36-48 hours or so for changes, so as not to pressure the translators too much. Sorry for the short notice. --pfctdayelise (说什么?) 15:03, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

  • Here are some remarks (copy of the message in your talk page):
  1. I think there are too many galleries. Maybe the following could be fused: Objects and Miscellaneous (Miscellaneous); Other animals and Mammals (Other animals).
  2. Instead of "Maps, illustrations, emblems and art", maybe "Graphic art and maps"
  3. I don't like the name "The built environment". Why not just "Constructions" ?
  4. Instead of "Arthropods" (not familiar to many users) I would put "Insects and other arthropods".
  5. Image:Sunset-cartagena-tower-Igvir.jpg should be in "The built environment", not "nature views";
  6. Image:Fishmarket 01.jpg should be in "Other animals", not "Miscellaneous";
  7. Image:Klosterkirche hirschhorn fenster.jpg, Image:Pere lachaise detail.jpg and [[:Image:Steenbrugge Grafmonument 02.jpg] should be in "Maps, illustrations, emblems and art", not "Miscellaneous";
  8. Image:TulipStair QueensHouse Greenwich.jpg should be in "The built environment", not "Miscellaneous";
  9. Image:Uniformity.jpg should in "Objects", not "Miscellaneous". -- Alvesgaspar 16:07, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
  • Some more details:
    • Image:Diagrama bicicleta.svg is being delisted as it is identical to another one. Should be removed IMO.
    • I noticed that the pictures are alphabetically ordered. Is it going to be that way in the contest or do you intend to insert randomization?
    • How many images will there be in the final? - Alvesgaspar 16:28, 3 January 2008 (UTC)


Hm, it seems like a mistake that Image:Diagrama bicicleta.svg became an FP in the first place. Nonetheless when 2007 ended it was still recognised as an FP so I think it should stay for POTY.

The images will be randomised, same as last time, both within the voting software and on the gallery pages. For Arthropods 1 and 2, everyone will see the same set of images within Arthropod 1 or 2, though.

The top 28 images will go to the final, which is 2x the number of voting categories. (Although when we count the votes we ignore the categories, so in theory the top 28 could all be from the same category.)

Fishmarket 01.jpg

This one is tricky: it is a dead fish at a market. Should it be "Other animals", "People and human activities" (the market), or "Miscellaneous"? I put it in Misc because it seems weird to put it with "other animals" (which are all alive), and although a market is a human activity it is pretty remote. All the other images in Commons:Picture of the Year/2007/Galleries/People and human activities involve people directly - there is at least one person in the picture - so I don't think it belongs there, but it's an open question really. --pfctdayelise (说什么?) 01:35, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

I renamed "Maps, illustrations, emblems and art" to "Graphic art and maps". Should Image:Klosterkirche hirschhorn fenster.jpg, Image:Pere lachaise detail.jpg and Image:Steenbrugge Grafmonument 02.jpg be in Misc or Graphic art & maps? Graphic art sounds like 2D, doesn't it? --pfctdayelise (说什么?) 01:44, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

Is this Japanese Larch Larix kaempferi Cone 2000px.jpg a plant or an object? pfctdayelise (说什么?) 01:47, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

Ah, this last one I overlooked. Definitely a plant. Lycaon 06:55, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
  • Looks ready, I couldnt find any other issues Gnangarra 10:10, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
  • No, I don't think Image:Diagrama bicicleta.svg should be included because when the contest start it will be no longer a FP. Also, and according to the guidelines, the voting period is 9 days, which means that the picture should have been delisted on the December 31 at 23:04.
  • Any other thoughts about my proposal for the fusion of cathegories? -- Alvesgaspar 10:56, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
    • Any input from anyone else about the bicycle diagram??
      • I do agree with Alvesgaspar on this one. For three reasons: the two stated by Alvesgaspar and the fact that the delisting was not about quality but about a technicality (no two almost identical images can be featured). Lycaon 10:11, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
    • For joining the categories, I tend to agree with Lycaon that they will be too big. I was trying to aim for about 30-35 images per category but we got many more FPs this year than I anticipated. Input from anyone else???? --pfctdayelise (说什么?) 03:32, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
      • I like the categories the size they are. We do need to bear in mind that in many parts of the world connection speed is quite slow. When I had a slow connection I would frequently click on "stop" & go elsewhere if loading took too long. The work has been well done - it may not be perfect but that is life and we can work on other ideas for next year. What we have is good - let's use it - thanks --Herby talk thyme 07:43, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

OK. I think the categories stay at 14, the Bicycle diagram goes. So if anyone wants to remove it and adjust everywhere I wrote 515 to 514 that would be great. ugh. --pfctdayelise (说什么?) 13:34, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

Time zones[edit]

So I guess the competition will open at 0000UTC 10th Jan. Just for reference here is that in everyone's local time. Luckily it is 11am for me. pfctdayelise (说什么?) 13:37, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

Where is POTY 2007 ?[edit]

It is past 9 here, in Europe, and there is no visible sign of POTY 2008, except for a tiny line on top on Commons pages (very difficult to read, by the way). I saw no announcements, either in Commons (Main Page, FPC, QIC, etc.) or in the other wikis. Anything wrong? -- Alvesgaspar 09:15, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

What do you mean by POTY 2008? You mean 2007?
I announced to commons-l and foundation-l virtually exactly at 0000UTC, and a couple of hours later to the Village Pump. You can help post announcements too, you know. --pfctdayelise (说什么?) 11:01, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

JS[edit]

JS is at MediaWiki:Poty2007.js, just because I'm going to forget it later. pfctdayelise (说什么?) 11:09, 13 January 2008 (UTC)