Category talk:Dix, New York

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Category:Dix, New York

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Can someone please provide some evidence that this place actually exists and isn't just a non-exiting historical town that was located where Watkins Glen is now or a massive troll? Because from what I've been able to find for all intents and purposes Dix seems to just be Watkins Glen. According to http://www.townofdix.com/ it's address is Watkins Glen, the Dix town board members addresses are all in Watkins Glen, even the official Schuler County website for Dix, https://www.schuylercounty.us/497/Town-of-Dix, says that it's located in Watkins Glen. So at least from what I can tell there's zero evidence Dix actually exists and/or isn't just Watkins Glen. If it doesn't and/or turns out to be Watkins Glen, then this category should be deleted and everything in it should be transferred to Category:Watkins Glen, New York. Adamant1 (talk) 03:03, 25 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  •  Speedy keep. A ten-second detour to Wikipedia suffices to prove that Dix is a real place. A ten-second look at the URLs provided above by Adamant1 does prove that the Town of Dix's municipal offices are located in the village of Watkins Glen, and the town board members reside there (which is to be expected given that the village is an integral part of the town and its population center, and the ZIP code Watkins Glen, NY 14891 covers most of the town of Dix) but, of course, does not prove the nonexistence of the Town of Dix (why would anyone bother setting up an official website for a fictional town?) See my user talk page for a full accounting of the genesis of this spurious CfD entry. -- Andre Carrotflower (talk) 03:16, 25 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
An Administrator of all people should know that Wikipedia itself isn't an authoritative source of information for anything. It's laughable that your trying to act like it is. I'll ask you the same question here that I asked you on your talk page, if the boundary map for Dix that you linked to is correct then why are most or all of the addresses for places located inside the boundary for Watkins Glen instead of Dix? Do the people who run the race track, kennel, and many other locations in what your claiming is Dix that have Watkins Glen addresses just not know where they are located? Or maybe Schuyler County just doesn't know what it's own boundaries are and gave literally everyone the wrong addresses? --Adamant1 (talk) 03:44, 25 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Auntof6 - Understood. And just to make sure all my i's are dotted and t's crossed, I'm aware that the pink section of the Town of Dix map is labeled as a "village" but not specifically "Watkins Glen". Here's a PDF of the official zoning map from the official website of the Village of Watkins Glen clearly covering the same boundaries as the pink section on the town map.
  • Adamant1 My above comment to Auntof6 provided copious non-Wikipedia-based proof of the town's existence as a separate entity from the village. Even going beyond that, though, the mere idea that an official website for a fictional town would be set up, and prominently linked to from the official website of the county that the town is located in, and that there would also exist a separate official website for the village of Watkins Glen, and that all three of those websites would contain maps clearly delineating the town's existence as a separate entity from the village, and that this would all be set up years ahead of time - for what purpose? as part of some bizarre hoax at your expense? - strains credulity past the breaking point and, if sincere, smacks of conspiratorial thinking.
It also explained that Watkins Glen's ZIP code covers most of the town (source: Google Maps, unless you think they're in on the conspiracy too), so most mailing addresses within the town are routed to Watkins Glen as it's the nearest place with a post office. This is common in the United States, especially in rural areas such as Schuyler County.
Debating in good faith requires you not to selectively ignore points that were previously brought up by your opponent that don't jibe with your position. Either engage in this debate in good faith or don't do so at all.
-- Andre Carrotflower (talk) 03:54, 25 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The fact that you persist in believing this is some elaborate hoax smacks of conspiratorial thinking. Administrative boundaries change and go away all the time. There's nothing conspiratorial about it either. Acting like that's not the case or that I'm somehow treating this as a massive conspiracy is just bad faithed. Either that, or your just ignorant as to how city planning works. If you are just unware that towns can either disincorporate or be absorbed into neighboring ones then I really wonder why your involved in this discussion in the first place and I'd kindly ask that you find other things that you aren't ignorant about to comment on.
most mailing addresses within the town are routed to Watkins Glen as it's the nearest place with a post office. That's patently false. There's a post office in Beaver Dams which is like a 3 minute drive from the kennel compared to a 12 minute drive from the kennel to Watkins Glen. So that's not the reason the Kennel's address is Watkins Glen. In the meantime, like I said before Van Zandt Hollow is officially located in Watkins Glen, despite it being on the far north western side of what your claiming is Dix. No one is sending a nature preserve/valley mail. They are using the address to find out where it's located on the map though. Otherwise you'd have to argue that the county of Schuyler County is intentionally miss-leading people by saying Van Zandt Hollow is in Watkins Glen when it isn't.
One more point, Dix is supposedly a town that contains the village of Watkins Glen inside of it. But like you said everything outside of Watkins Glen proper is rural areas. Montour Falls is directly south of Watkins Glen and it's not a part of Dix. There's nothing above what your claiming is the boundary of Watkins Glen except a lake. There's a campground to the east of it and a state park to the west. The rest is just farmland. So where exactly is this supposed town of Dix located if it's not Watkins Glen? Even if I grant you that the boundary of Dix is based on something that actually exists or existed at some point, how exactly is a bunch of farmland, a lake, or a state park a town and/or an urban area? --Adamant1 (talk) 04:33, 25 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Funny you should mention "how city planning works" as that's what I got my master's degree in. Yes, municipal boundaries change sometimes, but per New York State law, such boundary changes need to be filed with the Department of State's Local Law division (per [1]; see under "Cities and Towns" heading). There's nothing in the NYS Department of State Local Law Filings database that indicates any recent boundary changes for Dix. Meanwhile, this story about an accused child sex offender on mytwintiers.com indicates that the Town of Dix itself still existed at least as of a day ago, and has a functioning government (including at least a town court).
"So where exactly is this supposed town of Dix located if it's not Watkins Glen?" Once again, here's the official town map I linked to earlier: [2]
"Even if I grant you that the boundary of Dix is based on something that actually exists or existed at some point, how exactly is a bunch of farmland, a lake, or a state park a town and/or an urban area?" Because the entire surface area of New York is made up of cities and towns. To repeat, there is literally no patch of land in the state, whether urban, suburban or rural, that is not part of either a city or a town. Here is a vector map of all of them, based on information from the New York State Office of Information Technology Services.
-- Andre Carrotflower (talk) 05:08, 25 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Oh, almost forgot. Here is the part of the United States Postal Service website where, if you type in 14891, it shows that "Watkins Glen, NY" is the only allowable city name for mail addressed to that ZIP code. Then compare the Google Map link I provided above with the vector map I also linked to, and you'll see that ZIP code 14891 (and, therefore, mailing addresses given as "Watkins Glen, NY") covers basically the entire town of Dix. -- Andre Carrotflower (talk) 05:28, 25 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, municipal boundaries change sometimes ("rarely" per..... I'd be interested to know what "rarely" means in that context. Unfortunately I couldn't find anywhere that lists how many towns in New York have dissolved over a certain period of time, but "rarely" could mean literally anything. That said, my thesis here isn't that Dix necessarily dissolved as an administrative entity, but more that it become/changed it's name to Watkins Glen essentially dissolving Watkins Glen into it. A simple name change isn't necessarily a desolation. Supposedly like 2 villages are dissolved a year in New York. So it's not that far fetched that Watkins Glen was dissolved and Dix just changed it's name at some point. Obviously not everyone or everything automatically catches up at exactly the same time when a place is renamed or changed. Especially if your talking about boundaries in OpenStreetMaps (the one for Watkins Glen was added 13 years ago). In the meantime seems to come up if I search for Dix, New York in Google Maps. Although that could just be me.
Meanwhile, this story about an accused child groper on mytwintiers.com] indicates that... I mean, I could do that and to a much more effective degree. Like, meanwhile if I search Google News for "Dix, New York" nothing comes up but there's 144,000 articles when I search for "Watkins Glen, New York." If Dix was actually a think you'd think those numbers would be reversed. Also, if I search for "Dix, New York newspaper" there's jack squat. Yet "Watkins glen, New York newspaper" comes up with many results, including https://www.observer-review.com/, https://www.newsbreak.com/channels/watkins-glen-ny (zero results for "Dix, New York" on that site BTW), https://www.fingerlakes1.com/category/schuyler-county/watkins-glen/ (That one has a whole page for Watkins Glen articles and apparently only one result for the word "Dix"). I'm sure you get my point. Essentially, Dix is supposedly an exiting town, yet weirdly it doesn't have any local news outlets and barely comes in search results if it even does at all. Except for your one cherry picked article about a child groper. "Shrug." As a side to that, if you do a search for "Dix" on the Watkins Glen chambers of commerce's website nothing comes up either. Which just seems weird. For all intents and purposes Dix literally doesn't exist. Otherwise I'd be interested to know why you think it doesn't seem to come up in searches anywhere.
the entire land area of New York is made up of cities, Indian reservations, and towns, some of the latter of which contain one or more villages. Wow, you mean states are made up of smaller administrative boundaries? Golly gosh, who would have thunk? you really do learn something new every day.
is a vector map of all of them, based on information from the United States Geological Survey. I can't speak specifically to the accuracy of New York's data sources, but the USGS is notoriously inaccurate and out of date. That said, I was actually looking at a random map from some New York county website on ArchGis a few weeks ago and the data was from like 1899. Unless they meant 1999, but that's still not super recent.
Adamant1, what exactly are you even trying to do here? Being ignorant about the United States does not entitle you to make a fuss how things work over there. Thanks to WP, even here in Europe I am able to read up and understand the concept of towns/townships, without ever having left the continent. The whole concept is laid out in en:Civil township where it is stated that in New York, such Civil Townships are called "Towns". You don't need an urban area present to make something a town. The town of en:Red House, New York, has a population of 27 according to this list. Yes, that is the same amount of people like the ones who live in de:Mosebolle which is as rural as it can get. So what if "towns" are not universally defined? There IS a definition for "town" in NY state, and en:Dix, New York fulfills it, apparently since 1835. I see the burden of proving the town's non-existence with you. --Enyavar (talk) 06:07, 25 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Being ignorant about the United States does not entitle you to make a fuss how things work over there. I'm not really sure what's that in reference to since I live in America and actually have a background that's relevant to this subject area. Plus, I know how to do a Google search like everyone else. See my second comment above your message for exactly what I'm trying to do here. To give you a hint find information about Dix to show it actually exists, not a bunch of empty search results or references to Watkins Glen. Honestly I made that pretty clear in my first message, which you apparently didn't read.
There IS a definition for "town" in NY state At the end of the day how NY state defines "town" is a secondary strawman. The reason I opened this RfC had nothing to do with clarifying NY states definitions of it's administrative boundaries. Otherwise your free to point to where I said "this category should be deleted and everything in it should be transferred to Category:Watkins Glen, New York if no one can tell me how NY state defines a town."
I see the burden of proving the town's non-existence with you. I'm sure you know there isn't a way to prove a negative and that's not how this works either. That said, I think I've pretty adequately provided the context for why I think it doesn't exist (again, see my second comment in the message above yours for some examples of it's "non-existence"). Your more then welcome to prove me wrong by showing it does though. I'm more then willing to provide some examples of what type of evidence would show it exists if you want me to. A good starting point would be to answer why you think it doesn't come up in search results, including on Websites that are based in Watkins Glen. --Adamant1 (talk) 06:43, 25 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
"Your [sic] more then [sic] welcome to prove me wrong by showing it does though" - I gave you an official town website and map, an official county website mentioning the town, an official state GIS map showing the town, a news report from two days ago with Dix as the dateline and mentioning the existence of a Dix Town Court, and a searchable New York State Department of State database containing no information on any recent changes in the town's boundaries or dissolution of the town, which would be legally required to be in that database if it existed. If you don't consider all of that information, all derived from official government sources, to be enough to prove the town's existence, then you're simply not willing for it to be proven to you, and what we're doing here isn't really a debate. Now, please, at long last, can some admin come by here and put this discussion out of its misery? -- Andre Carrotflower (talk) 06:48, 25 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I gave you an official town website I assume your talking about http://www.townofdix.com/. If so, I'm not saying it isn't official but it's a random .com website hosted on GoDaddy and made with Website Builder. Most websites for towns in New York are .gov, professionally made, and not being hosted on GoDaddy.
I gave you a news report from two days ago with Dix as the dateline and mentioning the existence of a Dix Town Court And I gave you like 8 examples of news websites that specifically mention Watkins Glen and don't have any mention of Dix. Why does your one example prove your right but my 8 examples not prove anything in the other direction? If anything your the one not willing to change your opinion. If Dix exists, cool. I'm actually pretty reasonable about this and am more then willing to change my mind if you can provide actual evidence that it does. Show me a Dix newspaper. Show me a map from a reputable source that has the boundary of Dix on it. Provide an actual reason for why the kennel has a Watkins Glen address. Give me a reasonable answer for why you think Dix doesn't come up in searches, including on local Watkins Glen websites. I'm more then willing to accept any of that if it actually makes sense.
Why would I accept that the kennel's address is Watkins Glen due to it being the nearest place with a post office when there's a post office in Beaver Dams literally two blocks away though? There's a huge difference between being proven wrong versus one side just spouting obvious nonsense and then crying foul when their nonsense isn't immediately taken at face value as the 100%, undeniable truth. Literally all you've done is the later. It's not that I'm being unreasonable though. It's that the "evidence" your providing is nonsensical cherry picking that doesn't prove anything. Sorry, but that's totally on you. Hell, there isn't even any results for "Dix, New York" on Twitter even though they supposedly have a Twitter page. I can guarantee your only response to that fact would be to ignore it cry foul about how I'm just not willing be proven wrong or whatever. --Adamant1 (talk) 07:23, 25 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Your standards of proof are unreasonably high, and it is evident that for any source I come up with, you will come up with a reason why it's not valid. Therefore, this is not a good-faith debate and not a productive use of my time. It is now 3:38 AM where I live, and I have literally wasted my entire day dealing with your quite frankly embarrassing inability to tolerate losing a debate. Further disruptive behavior will have to be dealt with by another admin. I am exhausted and going to bed. -- Andre Carrotflower (talk) 07:33, 25 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Totally. The existence of a local newspaper is such an unreasonably high standard of evidence to show a town exists. Sure dude, whatever you say. Yet you can't even answer a simple question about why Dix doesn't come up in searches anywhere. If anything your the one being disruptive. Whatever part of your day you've wasted on this is totally on you. I didn't ask for your input. Nor did I want it. You weren't obligated to join this discussion and you added absolutely nothing useful to it either. Literally all you've done since the start of this is attack me and act defensive. Maybe do both of us a favor and skip it next time. It's not like I didn't have better things to do with my day then waste it countering your obviously false, defensive crap. --Adamant1 (talk) 07:45, 25 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Adamant1, given it was you who started this discussion on a category created by Andre, you very much forced this discussion on him even if you two hadn't been discussing Watkins Glen yesterday. But given your conviction of the town's non-existence, please achieve the deletion of Dix in all of Wikipedia's language versions, and when you're finished with that little task, we can continue here. After all, Commons is the media repository for WP, and stuff can't be deleted as long as it is in use in the projects. --Enyavar (talk) 08:39, 25 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry, but I don't really gear my edits toward catering to the preferences of whomever created the category originally. Nor was or is there a guaranteed outcome to this either. Nothing about this required his input or participation. Someone else could have commented and made the same points he did without the vitriol. It's not on me that he came into the discussion from the start purely to grind an axe. I can almost guarantee that if he hadn't of participated other people would have and the discussions would probably be over by now. If that meant deleting the category or not. Really, I could ultimately care less either way what the outcome of this is.
Outside of that your assertion that Commons is Wikimedia's media repository and that means I should deal with it on Wikipedia first is nonsense for several reasons. One, they are separate projects and how Wikipedia does things have zero bearing on how things are done on Commons. Two, this CfD has absolutely nothing to do with "media." Let alone have said anything about deleting any "media" related to Dix, Watkins Glen, or anything else for that matter.
Three, sorry, but you don't get to dictate the terms of who participates in this discussion or how. If "you" don't want to continue this, then be my guest and see your way out of it. Everyone else (including me) is free to participate in the discussion or not however they see fit to though. If you have an issue with that, cool. Just stay out of it then. This isn't your or Andre Carrotflower's show though dude. Both of you had your chances to discuss it before I opened the CfD. As far as my side of it goes, it's not like I didn't try to talk to Andre Carrotflower about this whole thing before I opened this. He wasn't willing to discuss things though. So I decided to get feedback about it from people who were. That's just how this works. No one is obligated to sit through other people's defensive, dishonest drama just so they can resolve a disagreement. Now I'd appreciate it if you stopped making this personal and commented on the actual topic of the CfD, if Dix actually exists or not. This isn't about me or the prior dispute with Andre Carrotflower. The repeated attempts to make this personal is getting disruptive. So I'd appreciate it if it stopped now and we got back on topic. Thanks. --Adamant1 (talk) 09:15, 25 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
No one is obligated to sit through other people's defensive, dishonest drama just so they can resolve a disagreement. - Now that is the spirit, let's wrap it up. On the actual topic of this CfD:  Keep because no mention can be found that Dix was dissolved into Watkins Glen in the recent years, and the place definitely existed in the past, if only as the administrative shell-district around Watkins Glen. So until otherwise proven, the place's continued existence seems much less far fetched to me than its sudden and unmentioned dissolution. --Enyavar (talk) 13:02, 25 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Now I'd appreciate it if you... commented on the actual topic of the CfD, if Dix actually exists or not - But that's the whole crux of the issue here. There is no genuine dispute over the existence of the Town of Dix. I'm willing to accept that this CfD may initially have been made in good faith, but over the course of this discussion, a cornucopia of ironclad evidence for the town's existence has been provided, derived from official government sources that would be readily accepted as reliable by any intellectually honest publication. Now it's important to note that disruptive behavior doesn't always have to take the form of swearing, personal attacks, threats, or the like, and we've now reached the point in this discussion where your persistence in questioning the town's existence and the validity of my sources is itself disruptive. -- Andre Carrotflower (talk) 13:17, 25 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
There is no genuine dispute over the existence of the Town of Dix. Can you point out where I said there was a "dispute" over the existence of the town of Dix? Because I've been pretty clear from the start of this that I think the town of Dix probably existence, but just recently changed it's boundaries to widen the area of it covered by Watkins Glen. I've never disputed that Dix existed at one point or claimed it's purely a hoax though. I simply asked if people could find references showing it exists and what it's actual boundaries are, because there's clearly some uncertainty about what area is purely Dix and what is Dix/Watkkins Glen. It seems like you and a few other people are boxing ghosts based on your opinions of assertions I haven't actually made anywhere in the meantime.
Also, does there have to be a "dispute" about something for someone to open a CfD? The last time I knew people could open CfD if they wanted feedback/clarity from other people in the community about the topic of the category. What exactly was wrong or disruptive about me doing that? I just thought people clarifying things if they could would help resolve the question of if the category for the state park should go in Category:Watkins Glen, New York or not. Since it makes a huge difference to that if the park is in Watkins Glen or Dix. Again, what exactly is disruptive about that? --Adamant1 (talk) 15:30, 25 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  •  Speedy keep Found mentions on official websites within seconds, as well as advertisements for vacation homes. All part of a widespread hoax? If so, we really want this category! Guido den Broeder (talk) 14:22, 25 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep - It's on the county website. Show that the county website isn't real or that it's outdated, or that's just the end of the conversation. The overlap with Watkins Glen is just based on a misunderstanding of how that all works. Historical villages sometimes straddle multiple municipalities. sometimes municipalities share post offices, yada yada. — Rhododendrites talk |  15:24, 25 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@Rhododendrites: Show that the county website isn't real or that it's outdated Just an FYI, but the map of Dix on the county website is from 2012. Which isn't super recent. If you do a search on the same website for Dix the second result is a link to a Town of Dix Zoning map from 2015 but it's a dead link. There isn't really anything else meaningful in the search results for Dix besides that. Just a tone of spreadsheets that don't have anything to do with Dix. Which I find rather odd. If I was to guess something changed between 2012 and now about the area. The zoning map being a dead link makes me think it probably relates to zoning. You can chalk it up to me just misunderstanding how boundaries overlap or whatever fine, but it's still suspicious that only thing meaningful the county website has about Dix is in it's search results is a dead link to a zoning map from 7 years ago. --Adamant1 (talk) 18:08, 25 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
You have a hunch. That's good enough for you to conduct an investigation, find evidence, and bring that evidence here. It's not enough to justify this sort of time sink without evidence (a deadlink and a map being 10 years old is not evidence of anything). I don't plan on replying further in this thread. — Rhododendrites talk |  18:18, 25 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep. Our job here is to categorize media not to play Sherlock Holmes. Adamant1 is free to request the English article be deleted as fake but I think Adamant1 knows how badly that would go. Evidence indicates that this is a reasonable and useful categorization. Also, don't start with "Can someone please provide some evidence that this place actually exists" and then say "I've been pretty clear from the start of this that I think the town of Dix probably existence" when called out on it. If you think the place exists, then withdraw this nonsense and get into a discussion per image or per category about whether this fits a boundary for it (if it is not the current boundary, who cares? it is a categorization that makes sense either way). -- Ricky81682 (talk) 21:09, 25 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    • Comment. "Adamant1 is free to request the English article be deleted" - no, he isn't. Adamant1 is topic-banned from deletion discussions on en.wiki. Of course, that would suggest not performing such backdoor deletion attempts on Commons either... SnowFire (talk) 18:36, 27 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  •  Keep Real place, and I found this place on the county website. It even has an English Wikipedia article that's well-sourced. If that's not enough info to validify this location, then there's nothing else that can be done. --SHB2000 (talk) 01:17, 28 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    @SHB2000: It's good you found that it's a real place, but I disagree that the English Wikipedia article is well sourced. The sites used by the references are to places that are reliable sources, but if you actually look at them, none of them support the existence of the town. For example, two of them are dead links (I just tagged them as such in the article) and others link to the general page for a site rather than a page with info about Dix. -- Auntof6 (talk) 03:04, 28 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    As if the US Census Bureau alone wasn't reliable enough... SHB2000 (talk) 03:20, 28 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    @SHB2000: The Census Bureau is a reliable source, but my point is that the reference pointing to it doesn't support the existence of a town called Dix. It lists a CDP called Dix Hills, but that isn't the same as far as I can tell. -- Auntof6 (talk) 03:27, 28 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    And as if what Rhododendrites and ACF's arguments also weren't enough for you. Anyway, I don't expect on replying further in this thread unless absolutely necessary. SHB2000 (talk) 08:27, 28 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    If the English Wikipedia article is not well sourced, then that is an issue for the English Wikipedia, not for Commons. If the page is a hoax, on the other hand, then this deletion discussion may be warranted. However, there are plenty of sources (such as the county's own website) that indicate that Dix is not merely a hoax, as mentioned by other users above. Epicgenius (talk) 02:44, 31 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
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