Category talk:Arpitan/Francoprovençal

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Merge Categories[edit]

Right now there are two redundant categories Category:Franco-Provençal language and Category:Arpitan language (plus their subcategories). These are synonyms for the same language. It doesn't make much sense to have two categories since the point of a category is to find the files you are looking for. The name situation is a bit confusing (see e.x. en:Franco-Provençal_language#Origin_of_the_name), but basically "Franco-Provençal" or "Francoprovençal" are most commonly used in linguistics, while "Arpitan" is used by a portion of the speech community. Debates about this naming issue can get very controversial and heated, just browse around Wikipedia for a bit and you will find plenty of edit wars and debates. While I personally prefer the term most often used by scholars (Franco-Provençal), I think it is also important to recognize that many of the files in these two categories are contributed by people from the speech community who prefer the term "Arpitan". To accommodate everyone and avoid edit wars, I think it would be best to create a category that includes both names. I'm not sure what that name should be, but something along the lines of "Category:Franco-Provençal/Arpitan", "Franco-Provençal (Arpitan)", or "Francoprovençal-Arpitan". Any thoughts? --Terfili (talk) 08:11, 9 August 2016 (UTC)

{+} Fusion, Francoprovençal language & Arpitan language are the same thing. --Diddou (talk) 14:42, 10 August 2016 (UTC)
The appellation of Franco-Provençal doesn't respect the principle of least astonishment WP:LEAST. Are we talking about a mixed language of french and provençal (occitan)? No, it makes a confusion. That's why it is best to use "arpitan". Most speakers of this language use "arpitan", which is more respectful. And the term began to be usual in the academic literature of international researchers and in the literature of local specialists. --Diddou (talk) 14:42, 10 August 2016 (UTC)
User:Diddou is right. "Franco-Provençal" was always a misnomer and is becoming an archaic one. -- Tuválkin 20:55, 10 August 2016 (UTC)
Let's not get into discussing which term is more suitable, because there will be no long term consensus. If we move everything to "Arpitan", someone is going to eventually argue that linguists use "Francoprovençal" (I have never come across "Arpitan" in a linguistic publication, at least in those by Swiss linguists that I consulted while doing research into this language there). If we choose "Francoprovençal", language activists are eventually going to argue for that. That is why I'm proposing a category name that includes both, like "Category:Francoprovençal/Arpitan". By the way, none of the native-speakers of this language that I know in the Canton of Fribourg, one of the few areas where this language is actually still used in daily life (and I know a lot of them), use (or have even heard of) the term "Arpitan". They either call it "patê", by a local name like "fribordzê" or "gruvérin", or maybe "Francoprovençal" if they have some academic background, without any negative connotations. Good luck going to a village like Cerniat, La Roche, or Treyvaux, where plenty of people still use the language daily, and asking people if they speak "Arpitan". --Terfili (talk) 00:52, 11 August 2016 (UTC)
In Valais (Switzerland), the language is still alive. In some villages, the family transmission still works and young people are fluent. Even if the older people say "patoués / patois", by talking a little with them, they add that it is a real language, it is the "arpitan language".--Diddou (talk) 15:24, 16 August 2016 (UTC)
I never doubted that "Arpitan" is used by people. But pretending that it is the undisputed common name preferred by speakers and "Francoprovencal" an outdated one is just inaccurate. This has nothing to do with it not being "a real language", it's just the result of no historical political or cultural unity of the speech area. The speakers of this language historically simply never developed a common identity or sense of linguistic unity, and so we have the choice of either using the somewhat cold and "soul-less" term that linguists coined, or using a relatively recent neologism (or as I suggest for our purposes here on Commons, to use both together). --Terfili (talk) 05:37, 17 August 2016 (UTC)
Hi there! I think the best way to call the fusioned categories is "Arpitan (Francoprovençal)" or "Arpitan/Francoprovençal". ISO 638-3 frp. Savoyerli (talk) 06:13, 11 August 2016 (UTC)
Putting Arpitan first is fine with me too, alphabetic (and thus neutral) and based on the order in Ethnologue (though the Ethnologue should always be consulted with caution). --Terfili (talk) 07:45, 11 August 2016 (UTC)
Merge these synonyms, and the name "Franco-Provençal (Arpitan)" seems fitting since Franco-Provençal is the scientific name, though it is clear it is nor a mix of French and Provençal Occitan, and Arpitan is the name used by a fraction of speakers and by activists. Oliv0 (talk) 06:16, 11 August 2016 (UTC)
Francoprovençal without hyphen would be better: "Francoprovençal/Arpitan"? What do you think? Savoyerli (talk) 21:20, 11 August 2016 (UTC)

Merge[edit]

Do you agree the merging of Category:Franco-Provençal language and Category:Arpitan language (plus their subcategories)? The category name will be discussed later. --Diddou (talk) 15:06, 16 August 2016 (UTC)

  • Symbol support vote.svg Support --Diddou (talk) 15:06, 16 August 2016 (UTC)
  • Symbol support vote.svg Support is there any way we could justify two overlapping categories? --Terfili (talk) 05:37, 17 August 2016 (UTC)
  • Symbol support vote.svg Support I left a message on frwiki just to get a better idea from comments but I was already pro-merge in the beginning (not my field, BTW). I also think Arpitan is more correct, but we'll settle that later.--Alexmar983 (talk) 16:38, 19 August 2016 (UTC)
  • Symbol support vote.svg Support I think that it will be easier if these two terms are mixed.Giettois (talk) 12:51, 28 August 2016 (UTC)
  • Symbol support vote.svg Support I agree the merging Arpitan/Francoprovençal. Savoyerli (talk) 08:03, 29 August 2016 (UTC)
  • Symbol support vote.svg Support --Dzakye (talk) 08:15, 18 September 2016 (UTC)
  • Symbol support vote.svg Support: Yes, of course: Both words mean the same there’s no question about that. -- Tuválkin 22:16, 18 September 2016 (UTC)
  • Symbol support vote.svg Support --Segognat (talk) 09:31, 21 September 2016 (UTC)

It has been nearly a month since the start of the discussion, and so far no one has argued that we should continue to have both categories. I think we should go ahead and decide what the name should be. Please remember that this shouldn't be based on what we personally think is the best term, but about how this category can be most conveniently used by everyone. Also remember that redirects can be set up, so people will still find the category. Finally, some categories like "Symbols of Arpitania" or "Arpitan Wikipedia" would not be affected.

I propose that we list proposals below, and everyone can give one vote either pro, contra, or neutral per proposal. I am going to list all the proposals that were made during this discussion, as well as the two current category names. If anyone has another preference, they can of course add it. --Terfili (talk) 03:51, 5 September 2016 (UTC)

Arpitan[edit]

  • Symbol oppose vote.svg Oppose Both terms are commonly used; we should use a combined name for the sake of user-friendliness and convenience. --Terfili (talk) 03:57, 5 September 2016 (UTC)
  • Symbol oppose vote.svg Oppose Only "francoprovençal" is officially used according to refs in fr:Francoprovençal#Dénominations de la langue [1] [2]. The first ref (Ministère de la Culture et de la Communication) links to Langues et cité, n° 18 : le francoprovençal from the bulletin of Observatoire des pratiques linguistiques, Ministère de la Culture et de la Communication, which speaks of only "some activists": p. 2 "Il est difficile de savoir si arpitan, le dernier substitut qu’utilisent actuellement certains militants, connaitra plus de longévité que les autres" (questionable longevity of this neologism), p. 6 "Le passage du terme francoprovençal vers celui d’arpitan reflète en ce sens la volonté de certains militants de cette langue d’imposer une auto-catégorisation de leur réalité linguistique". Oliv0 (talk) 05:27, 18 September 2016 (UTC)
  • Symbol support vote.svg Support The Fédération Internationale de l'Arpitan (Recent article on French newspaper and official website) organizes the international match of language (Review) (in which meet the majority of speakers' associations of France, Switzerland and Italy). According to a Swiss linguist (university of Fribourg), Arpitan is more and more used (in Freiburger Nachristen, 16.05.13 and GoogleTrends) Savoyerli (talk) 08:23, 18 September 2016 (UTC)
  • Symbol support vote.svg Support Arpitan is more and more used. Francoprovençal is outdated and disrespectful for the speakers, it was an invention of an Italian linguist which suggests that the language is limited to a mere juxtaposition of french and occitan elements. --Diddou (talk) 20:19, 18 September 2016 (UTC)
  • Symbol support vote.svg Support, after some of the arguments already stated on this page. (As for linguists’ use of the word "Arpitan" in scholarly documents, see, for one, Alexandre Raymond’s 2009 dissertation on orthography.) -- Tuválkin 22:13, 18 September 2016 (UTC)
  • Symbol support vote.svg Support, as expressed previously by Diddou. --Segognat (talk) 09:31, 21 September 2016 (UTC)
  • Symbol support vote.svg Support, As an user of the Wikipedia in arpitan language, I agree with the arguments of Diddou and Savoyerli. Auvé73 (talk) 14:55, 25 September 2016 (UTC)

Franco-Provençal[edit]

  • Symbol oppose vote.svg Oppose As per my comment above. --Terfili (talk) 03:57, 5 September 2016 (UTC)
  • Symbol support vote.svg Support As per my comment above. The official French spelling is francoprovençal, but the category name is in English: we should decide between Francoprovençal and Franco-Provençal based on their presence or absence in English dictionaries. Oliv0 (talk) 05:32, 18 September 2016 (UTC)
  • Symbol oppose vote.svg Oppose As per my comment above and because it's better notr use the hyphen. Savoyerli (talk) 08:23, 18 September 2016 (UTC)
  • Symbol oppose vote.svg Oppose The fact of the hyphenated denomination being in dictionaries at the moment should not be a reference point because although it also used to be everywhere in French dictionaries it managed to change. The reason why it changed was that the hyphen of this misnomer was a supplementary burden for a language denomination intended from the start to indicate a SINGLE language. English has not adopted the French reformatting readily enough. It should adopt it now, if French, more directly involved because this language is (at least) spoken on its territory. --Dzakye (talk) 08:35, 18 September 2016 (UTC)
  • Symbol oppose vote.svg Oppose Outdated, disrespectful and wrong term (without hyphen -). The removal of the hyphen has been decided in 1969 at the University of Neuchâtel. --Diddou (talk) 20:19, 18 September 2016 (UTC)
  • Symbol oppose vote.svg Oppose, as expressed previously. -- Tuválkin 22:16, 18 September 2016 (UTC)
  • Symbol oppose vote.svg Oppose, as expressed previously by Diddou. -- Segognat (talk) 09:31, 21 September 2016 (UTC)

Arpitan (Francoprovençal)[edit]

  • Symbol neutral vote.svg Neutral I think separating the terms with a slash is more clear, but I could live with a parenthesized name. --Terfili (talk) 03:57, 5 September 2016 (UTC)
  • Symbol neutral vote.svg Neutral but see my comment above about the hyphen in English. Oliv0 (talk) 05:34, 18 September 2016 (UTC)
  • Symbol support vote.svg Support As per my comment above. I think this proposition is the best one. Savoyerli (talk) 08:23, 18 September 2016 (UTC)
  • Symbol support vote.svg Support If we choose to keep Francoprovençal, this way is better in order to show the modern term first, and the second as traditional. --Diddou (talk) 20:19, 18 September 2016 (UTC)
  • Symbol oppose vote.svg Oppose, as expressed previously. -- Tuválkin 22:16, 18 September 2016 (UTC)
  • Symbol support vote.svg Support --Segognat (talk) 09:31, 21 September 2016 (UTC)

Franco-Provençal (Arpitan)[edit]

  • Symbol neutral vote.svg Neutral See my comment above. --Terfili (talk) 03:57, 5 September 2016 (UTC)
  • Symbol neutral vote.svg Neutral but see my comment above about the hyphen in English. Oliv0 (talk) 05:34, 18 September 2016 (UTC)
  • Symbol neutral vote.svg Neutral Savoyerli (talk) 08:23, 18 September 2016 (UTC)
  • Symbol oppose vote.svg Oppose --Diddou (talk) 20:19, 18 September 2016 (UTC)
  • Symbol oppose vote.svg Oppose, as expressed previously. -- Tuválkin 22:16, 18 September 2016 (UTC)
  • Symbol oppose vote.svg Oppose, as expressed previously by Diddou. --Segognat (talk) 09:31, 21 September 2016 (UTC)

Arpitan/Francoprovençal[edit]

  • Symbol support vote.svg Support I think using a slash, and no hyphen in "Francoprovençal" is most concise and clear. I don't particularly care about the order. --Terfili (talk) 03:57, 5 September 2016 (UTC)
  • Symbol neutral vote.svg Neutral but see my comment above about the hyphen in English. Oliv0 (talk) 05:34, 18 September 2016 (UTC)
  • Symbol support vote.svg Support Savoyerli (talk) 08:23, 18 September 2016 (UTC)
  • Symbol support vote.svg Support Both terms are nowadays equal, on the one hand in the revival younger dynamic supporters, on the other hand in the traditional and scientific-traditional circles. Putting "Arpitan" in front or after "Francoprovençal" is just a matter of preference, but it has its importance both psychologically and pramatically. Psychologically: The first term mentioned always comes out as the leader: Using the term "Arpitan" first would be a way to acknowledge the effort of the active contributors on wikipedia, who support the term "Arpitan". Pragmatically: The term "Arpitan" has been preferred to "Francoprovençal" and to many other denominations (Burgundian, Romand, Patois) among other things because it communicates less ambiguously and more strikingly than Francoprovençal. Using "Arpitan" first, in front of "Francoprovençal" would induce people not to confuse that language with a langue of the Provence or a language of France only. --Dzakye (talk) 08:53, 18 September 2016 (UTC)
  • Symbol neutral vote.svg Neutral I could live with this --Diddou (talk) 20:19, 18 September 2016 (UTC)
  • Symbol oppose vote.svg Oppose, as expressed previously. -- Tuválkin 22:16, 18 September 2016 (UTC)
  • Symbol support vote.svg Support --Segognat (talk) 09:31, 21 September 2016 (UTC)
  • Symbol support vote.svg Support, for the same reasons as expressed previously by Dzakye. Meanwhile, in 2010 SIL adopted the name "Arpitan" as the primary name of the language. Auvé73 (talk) 14:55, 25 September 2016 (UTC)

Francoprovençal/Arpitan[edit]

  • Symbol support vote.svg Support As per my vote above. --Terfili (talk) 03:57, 5 September 2016 (UTC)
  • Symbol neutral vote.svg Neutral but see my comment above about the hyphen in English. Oliv0 (talk) 05:34, 18 September 2016 (UTC)
  • Symbol neutral vote.svg Neutral Savoyerli (talk) 08:23, 18 September 2016 (UTC)
  • Symbol oppose vote.svg Oppose See my comment above about the disambiguating role of the term "Arpitan". --Dzakye (talk) 08:55, 18 September 2016 (UTC)
  • Symbol oppose vote.svg Oppose --Diddou (talk) 20:19, 18 September 2016 (UTC)
  • Symbol oppose vote.svg Oppose, as expressed previously. -- Tuválkin 22:16, 18 September 2016 (UTC)
  • Symbol neutral vote.svg Neutral --Segognat (talk) 09:31, 21 September 2016 (UTC).
  • Symbol oppose vote.svg Oppose. Auvé73 (talk) 14:55, 25 September 2016 (UTC)

Discussion[edit]

Well, @Savoyerli:, @Giettois:, @Alexmar983:, @Diddou:, @Oliv0:, @Tuvalkin:, and anyone else would might be following the discussion, what do you think? --Terfili (talk) 03:02, 18 September 2016 (UTC)

The vote has been going on for over a month, and no one new has voted in over two weeks, so here is the summary:

  • Arpitan: 2 oppose, 5 support = +3
  • Franco-Provençal: 6 oppose, 1 support = -5
  • Arpitan (Francoprovençal): 1 oppose, 3 support, 2 neutral = +2
  • Franco-Provençal (Arpitan): 3 oppose, 3 neutral = +3
  • Arpitan/Francoprovençal: 1 oppose, 5 support, 2 neutral = +4
  • Francoprovençal/Arpitan: 4 oppose, 1 support, 3 neutral = -3

This means that overall, there is the most consensus on the name "Arpitan/Francoprovençal" for the merged category. If there are no objections, I will create this category and move files over in a few days. --Terfili (talk) 07:30, 13 October 2016 (UTC)

I have now merged all categories and reorganized them a bit. Hopefully it is easy to find files on any given topic now. --Terfili (talk) 13:18, 23 October 2016 (UTC)