User talk:DrSmuggles

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-- Wikimedia Commons Welcome (talk) 03:12, 23 December 2019 (UTC)

Irish flags

Hello, sorry for the delay, I have a newborn at home and free time is something I’m currently lacking. I have been writing this message on three separate occasions.

Let’s put some things straight. I assume that you and User:Setanta Saki is the same person. Why do you use a second account is quite a question. Let’s put aside whether it is a case of sock puppet or anything else. Having said that I’ll proceed to teh reasons why I decided to edit your vexilological and heraldic files. Back in 2014 you have created/compiled coats of arms of Irish provinces. You decided to uniformalise every single file related to this topic. You have overwriten all avaliable Ulster flag file, in any given format: SVG, PNG, JPG – some of them originally uploaded by yourself, some existing for years (e.g. File:Ulster flag new.svg, File:Ulster Flag.svg, File:Flag of ulster.png, File:Flag of Ulster.jpg), the same happened to the other provinces (File:Flag of Leinster.svg, File:Flag of leinster.png, File:Leinster Banner.svg; File:Flag of Munster.png, File:Flag of Munster version.svg, File:Flag of munster.png; File:Connacht Flag.jpg, File:Flag of connacht.png) and every file containing these arms (Four Provinces Flag.svg, File:Ireland Flag.svg, File:All Ireland Provincal flag.svg, File:Rugby Four Provinces Flag.svg, File:Flag of provinces (Ireland).png, File:All Ireland province emblems flag.svg, File:Four Provinces Flag (Ireland) Trial.svg, File:Ireland flag map.jpg, File:Provinces of Ireland.svg, File:Provincial Arms of Ireland.svg, File:4 provinces.svg, File:IrelandRugbyProvinces.png, File:Map of IRFU provincial branches.svg, File:Flag of Ireland hockey team.svg, File:IRFU flag.svg). Not to mention your fake SVGs (File:1651 Coat of arms of Leinster.svg, File:1651 Coat of arms of Connacht.svg, File:1651 Coat of arms of Munster.svg, File:1651 Coat of arms of Munster.svg, File:1651 Coat of arms of Mide.svg) that automaticaly qualify for deletion. It was totally needless, right thing to do was to replace files in articles if you thought they were better suited, not overwriting every single file. Thankfully some of them have already been deleted, some requests are still pending.

My second point was that your approach to some of the coats of arms was rather aesthetic than accurate in terms of heraldry. Main one was and still is of course coat of arms of Connacht. Thing is you chose a very specific eagle. Never mind not giving full credit to the original author of File:Aguila de dos cabezas explayada 2.svg – User:Milenioscuro. It is extremely detailed and extremely different from anythig is acrualy used in Ireland. It is a Spanish style eagle. Go to Google Images for "Coat of Arms of Connacht" and check it out (exclude half that has its source in certain Wikimedia Commons file). Moreover, look at File:1651 Coat of arms of Connacht.png, image that apparently was your inspiration. This eagle looks nothing like that. Eagle images differ one from another but never they are so overcomplcated. File you chose to rip is almost totally unsuitable for any derivative work. Bear in mind that it actually is not used anythere in the whole wiki-universum except for the Korean site about "double headed eagle". Another thing is the arm with a sword. It is another borrowing, this time from Hungary (File:Coa Hungary Family Kinizsi.svg or something like that; once again not a word about the original author). Main problem is that while it looks elegant it is not what the coat of arms of Connacht looks like. Few months ago a request to the heraldry workshop was made to replace every single file containing your Connacht arm, as it should not have armour – it should be a regular sleeve (or even a naked white arm).

And here comes another talking point: because Wikipedia files are ubiquitous, and every avaliable variant at Wiki was your variant, your incorrect coats of arms made it to the world. They were sewn and sold, they were used in public, even during Rugby League World Cup (File:England v Ireland 2013 RLWC (3).jpg). And they really should not.

Therefore I decided to reduce the number of redundant, unused double files and to overwrite some of the existing ones. As there are no official coats of arms of the provinces I made an assuption that they should be as neutral as possible. Mainly it concerned Connacht, of course. Your arguments about quality I find a bit amusing. They are SVG files, so in ths fact they are looseless. If you mean details like feathers they are not an added value when we're talking about flags pasted into articles as 22px wide or even 200px wide pictures. As you compiled four (or rather five) different files, they differ a lot between each other both in style and in execution. Ulster and Munster are just simple drawings – no shading, no excesive details. Leinster's harp is taken directly from arms of the Republic and has a lot of details. Connacht's eagle was ment as a much bigger picture what can be noticed while looking at width of borders of different elements. In the eagle part there are borders almost two times thinner than in Munster's crowns. Arms witha a sword is in completetely different style to anything else, has shading etc. Long story short: they do not match one another. I tried to make them look kind of simmilar including border width, as they are in fact parts of one image. I chose as well a file that is in fact a half-eagle (in a coat of arms), not a half of two-headed eagle – as the difference is distinguishable.

Fact that noone've got enough time and self-determination to face the challenge of tackling few dozens of files doesn't mean that there was some kind of a wide agreement on using files in the existing state.

Going back to the copyright issues, elements I used are all shared with free licences and a minor change of colour shade won't make them copyrighted by IRFU or anyone else. There are no copyrighted elements in my versions of given files.

And lastly, "your" files were published with CC-BY licence what means that anyone can modify them. This includes myself. There was no need to negotiate it, especially with user DrSmuggles who on paper has nothing in common with the files and while file's author left Wiki years ago abandoning few dozens of edited files.

If you were to report me for editing files, please go ahead, just leave as well a direct link to this message. Aʀvєδuι ⁺ 22:50, 6 October 2020 (UTC)

Hi Arvedui89,

No problem at all I can appreciate the time constraints of a new born and I can certainly sympathize, I forgive all, I will be working late myself on call till Saturday so pre-emptive apologies for any tardiness on my side.

I’m no nefarious sock puppet far more boring, my old Setanta Saki/Caomhan27 account was created a very long time ago and the email address associated with it is no longer accessible unfortunately but I honestly haven’t had time like yourself. I check in now and again with the new account on occasion I have a nostalgia for some files and pages created and contributed to and like to see others perhaps like yourself with a similar interest.

I believe the files you are referring to are also over a decade or more old now, I believe at the time it was simply to streamline and clean-up previous files but it’s a long time ago. The clean-up was carried out by administrators on request as far as I recall. I designed many files back then and was slightly clumsy in in uploading to put it mildly being a newbie but contributed or started pages in reference to Ireland and its flags/arms where there was almost no quality information or versions in relation to them at the time. For example the old 1651 edge of map images (which are real not fake simply not uploaded under the correct format tag).

I realise many things are subjective here and obviously creators have personal bias. Given that I’m from Ireland and Connacht myself the flags also have a home connection which led me to invest time in researching origins etc and was instrumental in my creation of files and adding to the wikipages.

So on to the two flags/segments in question I would confidently say there is no one current “correct” ubiquitous version of the Connacht flag (in fact the current version now predominates in many places) numerous incarnations exist with various differences and there certainly is no “detail cap” on any segment (so this point is not strictly valid). My research showed the armoured hand is very prominent on some Connacht versions and is in fact present on the arms of the medieval Schottenklöster in Regensburg ( I will upload these versions to the page if necessary in a short time). The hand is also in a different pose although these to vary as does length etc but compared to the 1651 version it is different (not definite a historical cue). The sword and hand itself however is quite different and considerably less detailed for example the fingers etc are not drawn to the same standard on the original. I do not think you can honestly dispute that fact. While the eagle is question on the new approximation is less detailed as you say it is quite a nice a close replica (you may disagree) but certainly no need to change to simply reduce detail also I believe the original matches a composite of the granted arms and the 1651 image most closely and in higher detail. Perhaps you could upload it to the page as an alternate version.

With regards to the Leinster harp included this is from a very old version pre my own I think, it was of a very basic design compared the original harp I think you would agree. Today in Ireland the harp flag of Leinster and the harp presidential flag of Ireland have been used interchangeably with small variances in the province of Leinster today, you will never see the alternative version on any provincial flagpole in Ireland you will see the current one. So while not 100% perfect is of a higher calibre. I am open to a new variant design if we can cast it in a similar design bracket. Perhaps we may co-ordinate when we both have some free time on Sundays ( If you are free then).

Also I will certainly add back in credit for the eagle core to Milenioscuro is was previously and was correctly included some time back. I do know my designs are free to use it was the “probably” I thought a tad insulting but I am sure that was unintended.

On the Rugby and Hockey Flags you’ll obviously note I did not revert your uploads, in fact I liked what you did in regards to the IRFU flag as I know it is a closer facsimile of their flag version. I had previously uploaded a similar version which was not accepted as it was deemed to be “a substantially similar” to the current copyrighted IRFU which may leave it open for copyright claims and so I changed the designs to ensure it was not. I found it a little stringent myself at the time but if you are happy that this is not the case then that’s fine with me.

I think as a seasoned user you are knowledgeable that the long standing and detailed original files ( currently used in Ireland, throughout the world & on historical and information websites and in international tournaments including Rugby league/Bowls/Badminton/etc but not limited to) should remain in place until there is agreement on any replacement. I can say I have no issue with a newer even higher quality versions of the Leinster/Connacht being used as I want the best for the Wikipedia flags of Ireland section, but I honestly do not currently see this as fact in this case but as I said I am happy to work on something in collaboration when we both have some free time if that’s agreeable to you. May I ask if you yourself are from Ireland ?.

Apologies again I only get home quite late.

All the best and have a good evening, I hope you get some probably well deserved sleep ;)

Stay safe KR DrSmuggles (talk) 22:34, 7 October 2020 (UTC)