File talk:Flag of Italy.svg

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White[edit]

User:Panairjdde changed the white stripe from #eff0ef to pure white. I just reverted. I know it's odd, but that appears to be the correct color. At least, w:Flag of Italy says that in March 2003, the white was changed to Pantone 11-4201 TC. User:dbenbenn 16:37, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

The color of the Italian Flag have been officially defined on 2003 by a governative commission as follow (Pantone TX codes)
Color Pantone code HTML code
Green (brilliant grass) 18-5642TC #008966 [1]
White (Cloud Dancer TP) 11-4201TC #eff0ef [2]
Red (tomato) 18-1660TC #cf2b3b [3]
I'm Italian and can I assure that at present Image:Flag of Italy.svg has not very accurate colors, I'll try to correct the SVG file (first time in my life!) and upload the (hopfully) more faithfully version. --Fredericks 13:56, 9 December 2005 (UTC)
Done! Now it looks really more accurate :) --Fredericks 14:01, 9 December 2005 (UTC)
The hex codes corresponding to the pantone colors for the green & red above are incorrect; the white is fine. According to those links, the correct hex colors are #008966, #eff0ef, #cf2b3b (green, white, red). ¦ Reisio 15:42, 17 December 2005 (UTC)
(I agree, and changed the table above to avoid confusion. User:dbenbenn 23:32, 27 January 2006 (UTC))
The Italian constitution says that the Italian flag is green-white-red, not green-grey-red. Furthermore, any translation of Pantone into RGB is approximative, since Pantone is a standard for textile colors, and its conversion to RGB depends on many factors, among which the light you are using to enlighten the texture.--Panairjdde 09:47, 19 December 2005 (UTC)
http://www.askoxford.com/concise_oed/white?view=uk I don't see anything there saying white is "#ffffff". If the Italian government wants #ffffff for web images, then they need to specify so, otherwise the logical choice is to use the closest match to the colors they have specified. The color they've chosen isn't even "white", it's "Cloud Dancer". ¦ Reisio 15:49, 19 December 2005 (UTC)
I already told you Pantone is a classification for textile colors not for web pages.--Panairjdde 18:33, 19 December 2005 (UTC)
...and we are attempting to depict real flags made from textiles, not imaginary flags; and if they'd given a specification for web pages we wouldn't be having this discussion. Anyways, Wikipedia is about consensus, so when three other people and Italian law are on your side instead of mine, we'll use the colors you like. ¦ Reisio 22:13, 19 December 2005 (UTC)
Take a look here, and tell me if it is white or grey. Furthermore, the Italian law is on my side (I am talking about the Constitutional law). The truth is not democratic: white is white, even if you find ten friends who say it is grey.--Panairjdde 08:59, 20 December 2005 (UTC)
#eff0ef is white, and the white in the flags on that image appears to be roughly #edefee. Nobody said anything about gray, and if there's one thing I know from working on the SVG flags on Commons, it's that governments, their buildings, & their websites OFTEN use incorrectly constructed and colored flags. ¦ Reisio 12:54, 20 December 2005 (UTC)
You are wrong, #eff0ef is not white, and is not even grey, since it has different amounts of RGB. The fact that you found that the color in the image is roughly #edefee means that the Pantone textile scale can not be converted to RGB, because the final color would depend on the color of the light. The Italian law gave the Pantone colors, that is the color for the actual material the flags are to be made of, the colors of the flag are green, white (which means #ffffff), and red.--Panairjdde 16:29, 20 December 2005 (UTC)
I have to go buy a birthday present for someone, so we can continue this in a couple hours. :p ¦ Reisio 16:53, 20 December 2005 (UTC)
Back. :p ¦ Reisio 23:11, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

Locked, etc.[edit]

The matter _has_ already been discussed and AFAICT Panairjdde has ignored reason and consensus...

...but, to be redundant, dbenbenn, Fredericks, Zscout370 and myself have all seen fit to not use #ffffff and instead use roughly what the Italian government has specified as correct; a white, but not #ffffff. ¦ Reisio 14:10, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

The Italian government specified no RGB codes, but only textile colors. Any RGB conversion color is actually your choice. You can gather a majority on this matter, but the truth is this, and you provided no argument against it.--Panairjdde 09:33, 22 December 2005 (UTC)
Yep, I agree with Reisio. Panairjdde hasn't given any valid reason for his claim that the white stripe should be #FFFFFF. User:dbenbenn 17:08, 21 December 2005 (UTC)
I am going to double check if the Italians are indeed using these colors, but until I am told differently, I am sticking to my non-use of FFFFFF. Zscout370 17:53, 21 December 2005 (UTC)
According to FOTW, the colors used are not the Pantone shades, but I will have to do some deeper digging, or we might have to be in some Italians to get this sorted out. Zscout370 21:00, 21 December 2005 (UTC)
I hope you aren't referring to the images FOTW places at the top of each article - those are quite often generalized. http://www.corriere.it/Primo_Piano/Politica/2003/04_Aprile/29/bandiera1.shtml is interesting, though. ¦ Reisio 01:22, 22 December 2005 (UTC)
I seen that page, and if I read FOTW correctly, the new shades were rejected, but your right, the colors are usually generalized and mainly use the 256 websafe colors. Zscout370 01:49, 22 December 2005 (UTC)
Meh, I'll try and find some Italian government person to email and see what the current official status is. ¦ Reisio 04:55, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

From the discussion I understand that Reisio, dbenbenn, Fredericks and Zscout370 all agree on the choice of colour while Panairjdde is in the minority. I assume that further use of the 964 byte version is unwanted and have unlocked the image. Thuresson 03:12, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

Uhhh...is it me or that there are four competing versions of the flag with 964 bytes. I will try and rescript the flag by hand, using the shades I presented. Zscout370 07:30, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

This is not that pressing a matter as the proportions are correct and everyone will recognize it as the Italian flag - on top of that you have the apparent lack of the Italian government to clearly & without a doubt define the colors. I will email a contact at one or all of the government sites listed at en:Italy for some official information sometime today. ¦ Reisio 13:28, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

email sent ¦ Reisio 14:38, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

Shade of red[edit]

The version of the flag that Zscout originally uploaded on October 16 uses #cf2b3b for the red. All the versions until today used that shade; Zscout's recent upload (07:31, December 22) changed to #cc2e3b. Zach, was there a reason for that change, or is it just a typo? User:dbenbenn 17:51, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

Probably was a typo. I'll change it back. Zscout370 19:19, 22 December 2005 (UTC)
Hold up, I used the colors at the top of the page, but if that did not work, then I will go back to my original shades. Zscout370 19:20, 22 December 2005 (UTC)
Couple lines below the table there's a msg by me explaining that Fred got the hex codes wrong. ¦ Reisio 20:17, 22 December 2005 (UTC)
Alright, I went ahead and reverted to Reisio's latest version, which uses #cf2b3b, and has somewhat nicer SVG code (in my opinion). User:dbenbenn 20:53, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

Panairjdde reverted the flag again, on December 28. I just changed the flag back to the colors in the table at the top. I haven't seen any evidence that any other colors are more accurate. User:dbenbenn 23:35, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

I think this flag is pretty much perfected. :p If he reverts s'more, an indefinite protection probably wouldn't cause any problems. ¦ Reisio 23:52, 27 January 2006 (UTC)
I don't want to start a war, but if you change the colors of my flag, you'll need to protect all the flags in the world for which the governments thid not state the exact RGB codes. You are changing a symbol of a nation according to your taste, and doing so, you are setting a rule of usage: that any flag not explicitily coded by its country can be changed at your taste. If you are going to do this to the Italian flag, I'll do the same with all the flags that have no official coding.--Panairjdde 23:19, 28 January 2006 (UTC)
Not that I think it'll help, but ... nobody here chose the colors by "taste". We looked up the Italian flag law, which specifies Pantone colors. We then looked up what the most accurate RGB representations of those Pantone colors are. If you want to get the colors changed and make the change stick, you'll have to argue that either the Italian flag law specifies other colors, or that the Pantone colors we have are better represented with other RGB colors. User:dbenbenn 03:19, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

Despite the dispotic block, I am back. It seems that my points were not clear. I'll repeat them. Pantone colors are textile colors. You can't, I repeat: "can not", translate them to RGB values, since they are not meant to be used for that. "Your best", here, is not enough. You can't push the colors you like most, according to some Polish/Czeck conversion site (how comes that no English site has the same conversions? How comes that no graphic program has the RGB values for Pantone colors?). Since we are dealing with a national symbol, it would be smart on your side to avoid behaving like an elephant in a glass store. I am going to revert back the flag to the version with a white "white" stripe. Despite what the eager blocker understood. I am not menacing to vandalize anything. What I am saying, is that if you use "your best" in this case, I shall feel free to use my best with all the flags that are note coded RGB: that does not mean I shall paint the Lybian flag in white whet it is in green, but that I'll choose the exact green according to "my best". And, as a side note, please consider that the Pantone values you are adopting were changed in January 2004; the new values are on the site of the official Italian Government (last question of the page).

Best regards, Panairjdde 10:25, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

It'd be better if the page cited when those colors were changed (again), but considering that it is an official government site (afaict), that archive.org doesn't have a copy of that page, and that the colors are so near the other PMSes we've been using, I wouldn't mind switching to these Pantone colors for now. They come out to #008d46, #f3f2ef, & #d2232c, btw (for the lazy ones out there :)).
As for the unending question about Pantone approximations (yet again)...
It may seem odd, but there are established standard RGB values for basically all the Pantone colors (even from Pantone itself [4]) and imo (and others', e.g. Image talk:Flag of Sweden.svg) [not to mention everyone else who's taken part in this discussion] they come out fine. ¦ Reisio 11:00, 31 January 2006 (UTC)
I switched to the new RGB codes you gave (I was too lazy to look up the conversion myself). See Panairjdde, wasn't that easy? User:dbenbenn 17:35, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

Green-grey-red[edit]

I know I'm going to re-open an hot thread, but... as italian (and a lot of other italians thinks so), it's quite ridicolous to have a flag in which our "white" has become "grey"... or something similar. I know that you guys are making a lot of "math calculation" over which hex code using for the central color, but... Don't you see that the color used is optically grey, when the colours of the flag are constitutionally green, white and red? Something must have to be done. Maybe we have not to be so "accurate" when accuracy goes against the common sense --151.49.108.168 14:10, 4 February 2006 (UTC) ups sorry: --Gatto Nero 14:20, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

It's optically white, it's merely darker than #ffffff. Our goal, as I understand it, is to create accurate reproductions of official flags, not to satisfy people who aren't familiar with their own nation's flag specifications (or the meaning of the word "white"). ¦ Reisio 21:39, 4 February 2006 (UTC)
Apart the fact that your "optically white" is darker than red, according to you, may I suggest you an exchange on the validity of Pantone colors RGB codes here?--Squerciele 01:29, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
The Italian government apparently says the shade of white in the flag is Pantone 11-0601. Who are we to disagree? User:dbenbenn 02:06, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
You don't seem to understand that the problem is not the Pantone color decided by the Italian Government, but the conversion of the Pantone code (a textile and thus adsorptive code) into an RGB code. To make it more clear, the Pantone codes are to be used by producers of the flags. The colors of the flag are green-white-red, and therefore you can't put grey as color!--FlagUploader 12:10, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
So? Any (constructive) comment on my remarks?--FlagUploader 14:48, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
We've been through this before, Panairjdde. If you have any evidence that some other RGB code is more appropriate, please present it. If your evidence convinces others, the flag will change. If not, not. A bare statement that "you can't put grey as color!" is not sufficient to convince anyone here. User:dbenbenn 21:14, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
You know well that my edit of the UK flag was reverted on the same basis you are opposing here (white should be "as bright as possible"). Are you going to apply the same rule in both cases? To be clear: why is an "optically white" value for a textile color correct in this case, while it is not correct in UK case? The codes you are providing here and the ones I provided there have the same right to be used, since _neither_ of them are official. And, please, provide a good reason for your position, apart being the majority.--FlagUploader 23:45, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
Let's try to stay on topic here; discussions about other flags belong on other pages. The white in this flag is, apparently, officially specified as Pantone 11-0601. Apparently, the most accurate RGB representation of this Pantone color is #f3f2ef. User:dbenbenn 00:55, 11 February 2006 (UTC)
Are you saying that different policies must be adopted for different flags? Is everything here based on your personal taste, so that we use #ffffff if you feel so, and #zkrpds if you feel otherwise? You are not answering, after four days at least, why are you applying a textile code to a RGB medium. What are your sources? There is no official Pantone to RGB conversion, so how are you choosing these values?--FlagUploader 23:53, 11 February 2006 (UTC)
New source: http://www.governo.it/Presidenza/cerimoniale/quesiti.html. The Pantone colors are different than originally reported. Zach (Smack Back) 22:33, 11 February 2006 (UTC)
Ok, here is what I got from putting the images from Pantone --> RGB --> Hexidermal
  • Green: (17-6153) --> 0,141,70 --> #008d46 [5]
  • White: (11-0601) --> 250,254,255 --> #fafeff [6] (some other websites have this Pantone shade, but turns out in RGB 255,255,255, which is not correct. #ffffff becomes 255,255,255, which is officially declared Pantone "Safe.")
  • Red: (18-1662) --> 210,35,44 --> #d2232c [7]
I put the colors into MS Paint, then took the RGB into Inkscape, and i am spitting out what the RGB --> Hex converter is telling me. Zach (Smack Back) 22:49, 11 February 2006 (UTC)
Note, when I uploaded the one edition with the colors I mentioned above, I had the red bar over-lapping the green bar, so I had to delete it from the history when I uploaded the new, error free version. Zach (Smack Back) 22:51, 11 February 2006 (UTC)
Note that the new versions you uploaded were invalid SVG. I've fixed it, without changing the colors. Reisio above said the white should be #f3f2ef, not #fafeff, but I have no opinion about who's correct.
Zach, you might want to try Firefox. The newest version has built-in SVG support! So if you click on Media:Flag of Italy.svg, you actually see the flag. User:dbenbenn 03:38, 12 February 2006 (UTC)
While I am not sure who is right about the shade of the white, but I will try to look into it more. Zach (Smack Back) 04:15, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

Pantone 11-0601[edit]

Ok, I went to http://www.avas.cz/nastroje/barvy/pantone-textile-cotton.php?pg=34 and the color above gave me 250,243,246 (#faf3f6) but I suggst this should not be used, since this looks very pinkish at my end. http://www.pashminaz.com/colors.php came out as 244,243,238 (#f4f3ee). As Dbenbenn said earlier, Reisio has chosen #f3f2ef (243,242,239), but I am not sure what his source is. But, my other question is, why are we even fighting over the white strip? Are there problems with the green or the red, but just not as obvious? Zach (Smack Back) 04:29, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

#f3f2ef came from avas.cz as well ¦ Reisio 05:26, 12 February 2006 (UTC)
(Answer to Zach) My point is that Pantone codes are not directly convertible into RGB codes, as you noticed by the fact that different sites give different RGB codes for the same Pantone code. That is true, of course, for all of the three colors, but while Reisio chose shades of red and green that are "wrong" (for the reason just given), but still green and red, they chose a white that was, at best, grey.--FlagUploader 22:25, 12 February 2006 (UTC)
What "reason just given"? Everyone agrees that converting Pantone to RGB is hard and imprecise; for that reason, we have to simply try to find the best way to represent the official Pantone colors. You haven't given any reason to think the codes Reisio gave above are "wrong". User:dbenbenn 01:21, 13 February 2006 (UTC)
You said that "converting Pantone to RGB is hard and imprecise; for that reason, we have to simply try to find the best way to represent the official Pantone colors." However, in one case (the UK flag) you said that the best thing to do is to assume a white "as white as possible", while here you advocated a grey "white" stripe. Since it was clear (at least to me) that grey is not an option, since there are no grey Italian flags anywhere, I put a white "white" stripe, but you reverted my edit. Now the colors of the flag are changing according to the latest website giving a Pantone approximation. As regards Reisio notice that I was contesting the grey color chosen for the "white" stripe, which has never been used in any Italian flag, and thus was clearly wrong.--FlagUploader 14:53, 14 February 2006 (UTC)
With the UK flag, the white Pantone is "Safe," since if there was a shade for white, it would have been specified in a construction sheet I got from the Flag Institute of the UK. Zach (Smack Back) 00:43, 15 February 2006 (UTC)
...while in this case, since the color chosen was clearly wrong but a Pantone code was provided, it was "Safe" to select any color preferred by Reisio/Dbenbenn/IDontRememberWhoWas ? These "rules" about "as bright as possible" and "safe" sprung up in one case, and not in the other, why?--FlagUploader 17:33, 15 February 2006 (UTC)
According to http://www.af.mil/library/symbol/colors.asp, there is no such thing as Pantone White/Safe, so they said to use 0/0/0/0 in CMYK or 255,255,255 in RGB, which both translates to #ffffff. So, if there is a white color on the flag, and the white color is not defined, but the othes are, it will be safe to assume that the Pantone shade is going to be #ffffff. Zach (Smack Back) 21:49, 15 February 2006 (UTC)
I had that problem with the earlier shades, since the direct Pantone shade was a very, very greyish color. But, now with these shades, the white color looks more like a "milk white" that was described to me earlier. While you are right to address that Pantone --> RGB is pretty rough, what I can suggest is to launch an email to the Italian Government and see if they suggest any codes into CMYK (Inskcape also works in CMYK). Or, see if I can get some color swatches, put them into a scanner, and see what comes out. Zach (Smack Back) 00:01, 13 February 2006 (UTC)
CMYK is crap imo. Up to date Pantone numbers (wishful thinking at this point, I think) or government-specified RGB is the way to go. If you send an email, don't bother to send it to the Ministry of Foreign Affairs - they never got back to me. ¦ Reisio 01:37, 13 February 2006 (UTC)
The Pantone is not disputed if I am reading this correctly, it is just the RGB colors that is pretty screwy. From what was pointed out to me before, we could take a peek at http://www.ipzs.it/home.htm, the office that prints Italian stamps, passports, and official documents. I could see what they say. Zach (Smack Back) 02:47, 13 February 2006 (UTC)
I could try and get a copy (most likely pirated) of http://www.pantone.com/products/products.asp?idArea=3&bShowProducts=1, a Program by Pantone to get colors from pantone to RGB and Hex. Want to give this a spin? Zach (Smack Back) 03:04, 13 February 2006 (UTC)
Could we give http://www.unimelb.edu.au/webcentre/tools/developertools/pantone.html a shot? While this is not the best source, this is something we could use. Zach (Smack Back) 03:06, 13 February 2006 (UTC)
Give it a shot at what? Are we trying to find an RGB approximate to 11-0601 that doesn't look pink? I say we make the Italian flag fuchsia in protest of their indecision & disorganization. :p ¦ Reisio 09:18, 13 February 2006 (UTC)
I had fuchsia wall-paper in my NC home, its scary. Zach (Smack Back) 02:38, 14 February 2006 (UTC)
Since these are textile color specifications, the best software solution would be the "PANTONE(R) for fashion and home color chooser", v3.0. http://www.pantone.com/products/products.asp?idArea=4&idArticleType=38&idProduct=295 (Anonymous contributor), 05:36, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
Ignoring the software approach, one could just order 4-inch swatches of the cotton textiles specified ($5.75USD each), and use color management equipment to create RGB/hex values from the actual fabric. Perhaps averaging the values across the entire texture using a reliable scanner would be sufficient. This might even be superior to the software approach since the actual fabric would be involved. (Anonymous contributor), 05:36, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

My edit of may 19th 2006[edit]

I recovered the previous version from Dbenbenn, the verion FlagUploader used #FFFFFF as white. I don't know why the summary is in italian. Paulatz 12:25, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

"You may like it or not, I don't, but those are" not "the official colors." Those are a free interpretation of the "official" colors, which are a textile description. --FlagUploader 09:01, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

This discussion is ridicolous; the official colors are specified by the Constitution as told many times (and anybody knows that light blue or grey, no matter how light it is, is NOT the correct color: white (#ffffff) is correct. I hope the situation will be restored quickly to a rational point (white=white). It is worrying how apparently some people here are not thinking but just applying the "law" (that was NOT written for the electronic representation of the flag, but they ignore it). --Ggonnell 10:19, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

To be excessively and completely redundant...
White != #ffffff (http://www.askoxford.com/concise_oed/white?view=uk), and that's right, they didn't make any specific instructions for digital representation, so what we have is what they did specify. Even if they had specified an alternative set of colors for digital, I think it'd still make sense to use the colors that you'd actually see in reality. ¦ Reisio 11:27, 29 July 2006 (UTC)
White! #ffffff! --Jacopo86 17:08, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

Upload war[edit]

Can you all please stop "upload warring" and settle this dispute? I find it ridiculous that this is about the color difference between #fafeff and white. I doubt anybody will ever recognize the difference, and I assume most screens don't even produce different colors for them. —da Pete (ばか) 07:06, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

While the difference is small, we decided to not use pure white, since there is not be a Pantone shade for pure white. Since there is, we have to go with an offwhite color. Things were fine until started to revert again without reason. I will revert and lock the image if this continues, again. User:Zscout370 (Return fire) 07:51, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

Hmmm, upload war moved to other italian flags? See recent uploads to Image:Naval Ensign of Italy.svg and Image:Civil Ensign of Italy.svg --Denniss 22:49, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

Protected those too and reverted to the agreed colors. User:Zscout370 (Return fire) 03:03, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

Report from Commons:Bar italiano[edit]

Hi, in order to solve the controversy about the color I have raised a formal discussion on the "italian Bar" about this flag; up to now 16 people (me included) have replied:

  • one person doesn't care at all
  • 1 person prefers to leave everything unchanged
  • 1 prefers the light blue shade
  • 10 prefer #FFFFFF
  • 3 prefer #FFFFFF but do not care a lot because they cannot see a big difefrence on their monitors

furthermore several interesting points have been raised:

  • the governement has no power on the color of the flag, which is specified by the constitution of the Italian Repubblica, article 12. and would require a constitutionl law to be changed
  • consequently the pantone colors are to be considered more of an advice then a law
  • some people remarked that pantone colors have to be converted to exadecimal values with a bit of common sense
  • some other people remarked that the flag is older than both the pantone and the exadecimal colors.

concluding, I'll wait a couple more days if some other italian people wish to express their opinion, actually a large majority the italian commoners would prefer the real "#FFFFFF" white for the flag. Bye, Paulatz 12:31, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

You give away your bias by saying real "#FFFFFF" white. If it's white, it applies to the definition of the word, which is not going to be "#ffffff" for any language. Regardless, we should be aiming for what the official government-approved flags look like.
I don't see a problem with a more generalized (#ffffff-using, if you prefer) copy of the flag at a location other than this, but it can't have a silly name like 'True Flag of Italy.svg' and it cannot be used to replace this one in every instance (I imagine it would not be suitable to replace this one in almost all instances, actually, but here and there it might make sense). ¦ Reisio 13:12, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
What are you talking about?? I have not asked you anything. I have just reported the italian community's opinion. I don't see the point, I suppose you simply haven't read what I've written. Paulatz 13:44, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
I responded primarly to your final line which included "a large majority the italian commoners would prefer the real "#FFFFFF" white - are you saying that this is their opinion and not yours? :p ¦ Reisio 20:05, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
If you write that this image is "Flag of Italy", then you should allow other versions to be called "True Flag of Italy".
Note also that Commoners have no right to chose the colors of an image for all Wikipedias. Whatever is your intention, it is on each single Wikipedia to decide if to use this version or anything else.
As regards the colors, I can only repeat that Pantone are textile colors, and cannot be used for rgb coding.
As a further support to my pov, comes the hilarious story of User:Zscout370 (from Commons:Village_pump#Flag_of_Italy). For those not knowing it, Zscout, after supporting the use of very light blue as central stripe, appeared triumphally on Village pump, claiming to have found the same colour declared by the Italian government on Pantone website, so he was going to fetch the rgb codes of the "official Pantone conversion" (so to speak). After a while, my beloved Zscout returned, and sadly proclaimed he did actually convert the Pantone color to rgb, but "it came out as a very dark Pantone shade, almost pinkish". End. No conversion of the file to this "official" color. Why? Because Zscout did not "like" the pinkish version (at least not enough as he does with the blueish one, I suppose).
--FlagUploader 21:07, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
From what I was told earlier, the flag is supposed to be a "milky white" color. And, while Pantone officially gave out one shade, it was not even close to what we have right now. It became more red when I put it into Inkscape. As I said at the Village Pump, I am going to exhaust all of my flag resources in the next few days to find the color shades. User:Zscout370 (Return fire) 21:34, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
Z, just fyi - be careful and watch the values in the inputs in Inkscape, sometimes changing one causes others to alter from what you input...which can lead to unexpected hues. ¦ Reisio 06:59, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

Since Google is giving me nothing but grief, I decided to write the Italian Embassy in the US and see how it goes. What will most likely happen is that if I do get an image, I use will it to get the right colors and upload that separately. Then, yall can decide if that is good enough. However, I think this is my last chance to get some answers, since all of my Italian contacts have dried up and there is no one left, that I personally know, that I can poke and prod. I know there is a Government printing office too, the same office that prints the passports and stamps, in Italy and if someone wants to bug them, go right ahead. User:Zscout370 (Return fire) 22:38, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

The problem, again, is that the Italian Government gave no rgb codes, otherwise there would have been a decree issued somewhere. Since the only proble to solve was the one of distinguish Italian and Mexican flags in international meetings, they simply issued the textile codes. No need to issue the rgb ones, therefore. Even if some office sends you an image of the Italian flag, it would be just the image of one Italian flag, not an image of the Italian flag.--FlagUploader 01:32, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
At least it will give me a basis to work from. Since it is Sunday in the US right now, I think I should have an answer by the end of the week. If not, there is a consulate an hour from my home and I will bug them next. User:Zscout370 (Return fire) 01:38, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

@Reiso: I cite your own words in this page: " Anyways, Wikipedia is about consensus, so when three other people and Italian law are on your side instead of mine, we'll use the colors you like. ¦ Reisio 22:13, 19 December 2005 (UTC) ". I think there is now a large consensus (see the italian bar or, if you don't understand the language, the accurate report of Paulatz up here) that the white on the italian flag should specifically be encoded by #ffffff. --Ggonnell 07:02, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

That would be relevant if only it.wikipedia.org were commons.wikimedia.org. ¦ Reisio 09:53, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
Commons:Bar italiano is commons.wikipedia.org.--FlagUploader 17:24, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
I have uploaded a printable version of all the involved flags, so if someone ever wish to print it on a cloth he can use the True Pantone Colors. I have asked the admin who blocked the image to revert (1, 2, 3). Bye, Paulatz 07:51, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
Sounds fair. Unprotecting Flag of Italy now, will unprotect in a little bit the others. User:Zscout370 (Return fire) 09:04, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
Done. As I explained to Reisio on EN Wikipedia; this is not worth it. From our goal to provide accuracy, we done things and said things that really, we should't have. As a vexillologist, I tried to use whatever I could to define the flag correctly, though as you can tell, I screwed up big time. Now, as for the above solutions; that is perfect. It stops the war, plus gives me an image I can try and toy around with. I will try and post SVG samples of the white code later on, but before I do anything else, are yall sure it is just the white colors that seemed wrong to you, or was it all of them? I want to be sure of this before I go off writing letters, since the only thing I can forsee really solving this is writing to the same people that came up with the damn codes in the first place. I personally wish they were more forthcoming, like how Bulgaria and Canada were, but now, time is on our side, so we all should just relax, have a nice drink, and just focus on something else other than this. Thank you, apologies to all, please forgive me, and if yall want, try and work with me please so we can try to get this right, somehow. User:Zscout370 (Return fire) 09:23, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
As I've said, I'm not going to be active against anything like this - my only concern atm is to keep Captain Sockpuppet & co. from propagating Image:True Flag of Italy.svg and the like. ¦ Reisio 09:53, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
Yes, we have discussed the matter; I personally don't dislike the pantone "white" hue that much, but the problem is that it looks really ugly with many monitors expecially LCD ones that often has a lower color resolution than the dear old CRT. When the image is rendered at low resolution the difference is really minimal, but at higher resolution it doesn't look white, nor milky at all. The red and green shades are all right to me, Furthermore I stepped in the dispute mainly to stop the war Panairjdde's war which was getting more and more annoying. Paulatz 09:58, 31 July 2006 (UTC) P.S. is Reisio accusing me of being a sockpuppet??
No :p Panairjdde or whoever - check his en page. ¦ Reisio 14:14, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
Yes. You are actually famous as a paladine of correctness and civility. You are the right person for this job.
You did not even understand the meaning of "True" flag and its use on Wikipedias, yet you hit revert like a mad.--FlagUploader 17:24, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

2006 Update[edit]

Sadly, I have none. I tried government offices, but nothing worked out too great. Also, from what I saw on the Commons Noticeboard, FlagUploader was blocked as a sockpuppet of another user (the check was made during a dispute with the Polish flag, where I was not involved). My question is this; with the above updates, do you think should we explore more about the color issue or no? User:Zscout370 (Return fire) 22:27, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

It's certainly not at the top of my todo list, but I'm not going to stop seeking confirmation from an authority as to what the Pantone (or whatever) colors are. ¦ Reisio 22:47, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
Ditto, though I am not sure who we could ask now. User:Zscout370 (Return fire) 23:10, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
If I go to Italy this coming year maybe I'll harass some clerk. :p ¦ Reisio 00:22, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
I'll try Google again, but also my flag friends again and see if they will actually respond. User:Zscout370 (Return fire) 03:23, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

2007 Update[edit]

Mcicogni 12:02, 6 June 2007 (UTC) FOTW reports, correctly, a government decree (by all means an act with force of law within the powers given to the President of the Council of Ministers, i.e. the prime minister), that gives an authoritative, and different, set of Pantones, for printing on polyesther fabric. It explicitly states that other fabrics must give the same result as a reference flag held by the competent department (thus implicitly allowing other fabrics to be used). The reference is to "Decreto del Presidente del Consiglio dei Ministri 14 aprile 2006", art. 31:

Art. 31 (Definizione cromatica dei colori della bandiera della Repubblica)

1. I toni cromatici dei colori della bandiera della Repubblica, indicati dall'art. 12 della Costituzione, sono definiti dalla circolare della Presidenza del Consiglio dei Ministri del 2 giugno 2004, UCE 3.3.1/14545/1, con i seguenti codici Pantone tessile, su tessuto stamina (fiocco) di poliestere:

Verde 17-6153
Bianco 11-0601
Rosso 18-1662.

2. L'utilizzazione di altri tessuti deve produrre lo stesso risultato cromatico ottenuto sull'esemplare custodito presso il Dipartimento del Cerimoniale di Stato della Presidenza del Consiglio dei Ministri, nonché presso ogni Prefettura e ogni Rappresentanza diplomatica italiana all'estero.

I have looked on the Pantone site to check how they render these colors into RGB, since they are the ones most likely to get them "right", or at least to give the lesser evil, and I found some info on their Color Finder, and I looked within the HTML source to find out the exact color used. Results are below.

Color Pantone code from Italian law Name given on Pantone site HTML rendering from Pantone site
Green 17-6153 Fern Green 17-6153 TC #009246 
  
White 11-0601 Bright White 11-0601 TC #F1F2F1 
  
Red 18-1662 Flame Scarlet 18-1662 TC #CE2B37 
  

I'm Italian, and looking at the rendering Firefox does of the SVG the red and the green look all right on my uncalibrated LCD monitor, which is arguably one of the worst media to render colors on. The white looks grayish, but again, I feel it's really a matter of calibrating the display and choosing the right temperature of light.

Shouldn't we update the SVG with these colors?

We tried before, but as you can tell from above, once we made the changes, edit wars ensued on the Commons and en.wikipedia. However, I would support a change if others agree to it. User:Zscout370 (Return fire) 19:20, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
I'm in favour. —Nightstallion (?) 12:34, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
hmm the color name says bright white, but the older white is much much brighter, imho the older one looks brightest and best... oscar 08:28, 9 June 2007 (UTC)
Regardless if I chose the American or European Print for any fabric, it still comes out with the same result. I admit the name is a bit strange. I have posted this on the Italian Village Pump at it.wikipedia so the edit war we had in 2005 doesn't occur again. User:Zscout370 (Return fire) 08:35, 9 June 2007 (UTC)
thx to tooby also it:Wikipedia:Bar/2007_06_9#9_giugno now points to this topic, good to have alerted the people there :-) best regards, oscar 09:04, 9 June 2007 (UTC)
I prefer the old version. The pantone colors and government decree are for the fabric flag. The HTML conversion for the pantone colors exists, but the government decree is about only the fabric flag. So, for the web use, I'think is better the older versions, because the "pantone" version is quite orrible on LCD monitor poorly calibrated. --Il palazzo 12:13, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

Il Palazzo is right. If we use the new image of the Italian flag everyone who isn't Italian will think that our flag is red, grey and green. So I have only one thing left to say to show that I agree with him...

heil, Il Palazzo! ;-) (I love excel saga!) --151.43.13.29 (andreafox in it.wiki) 15:37, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

Official colors, please - if your government says it's not #ffffff, then it's not. If you don't like it, take it up with your government. ¦ Reisio 19:17, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

The reference is for printing it on Polyester textile flag, and obvious a CRT or LCD (or paper in a color printer) isn't a Polyester flag, so using the same pantone the resulting color is different.... The point "2" say that if other textile is used (the italian legislator undestand that using different material give different resulting color), it must have the same cromatic appearance (no bond on using pantone or other color system, the important thing is that the visual cromatic appearance is the same) of the flag used by "Dipartimento del Cerimoniale di Stato della Presidenza del Consiglio dei Ministri, nonché presso ogni Prefettura e ogni Rappresentanza diplomatica italiana all'estero" (the flag used by gov agency). A monitor isn't a "other textile", but following the same reasoning i think that "printing it on screen" must give the same cromatic appearance of the printed flag, so "red, white and green", and not the "red, grey and green", that is the result of using a color code intended for the printing on a single specific textile (and its cromatic result). IMHO. --Yoggysot 08:31, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

I support Yoggysot. it:Utente:Panairjdde--151.73.188.241 12:20, 10 June 2007 (UTC)


Here we are again: the previous discussion on similar topic was more or less closed we I proposed to create two versions of italian flag and related insigna: one fit for monitors and one fit for printing (expecially on textile), see Image:Printable Flag of Italy.svg. At that time it was clear enough that nearly no italian commoner supported the Pantone color which, even if formally correct, resulted in a pinky (or azurine) shade of white.
The new greyish shade is somehow better than the previously proposed tones, still I don't think they can be considered as a valid interpretation of the decreto.
On the other hand I support an update of the printable versions. Paulatz 15:40, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

As stated above from others the governament decree is about printing the italian flag on a polyester textile. I've actually not often seen an LCD monitor waving or fluttering in the wind. The solution suggested by Paulatz should satisfy both positions: a colour set for printable image and "red, white and green" for on-screen svg. --Pap3rinik 21:42, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

And the on screen flag is the image Flag of Italy.svg. I think we would need some time to figure this out, but all I ask is that whatever the outcome is, I don't want a repeat of last time where people were change the name of the images to "True Flag of Italy" and all that mess? Agreed? User:Zscout370 (Return fire) 00:47, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
Well that sock puppet guy is gone AFAIK, we should be able to do sane things again. ¦ Reisio 01:17, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
Ok. I know that with the Polish flag going to a greyish color, instead of white, I think we can build our case to use the official colors. Unless the Italian Government comes out with something else, this is the best choice to go with. User:Zscout370 (Return fire) 05:16, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
Pantone = matter color
RBG = light color
How can you argue to use a matter color to define a screen image? The grayish white could be right for polyester, but of course is wrong for LCD/CRT screens. The law in his text refers ONLY to textile (TC) colors, and is not suited to screen or paper use.
art. 12 of the Italian Constitution states that the flag is verde, bianco e rosso a tre bande verticali di eguale dimensione (Green white and red, in three vertical stripes of the same dimension). It doesn't say "grey" or "greyish white". --Jollyroger 09:46, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
These are the fact: in 1946 italian constitution states that official flag of Italy is green, white, red.
Art.12 della Costituzione della Repubblica Italiana: La bandiera della Repubblica è il tricolore italiano: verde, bianco e rosso, a tre bande verticali di eguali dimensioni
Than we have applicative decreto for textile flag (cited above). So strictly talking we don't have official colors, for ink printing on paper or printing on screen, with exception for original 1946 constitution. This is correct law interpretation. Well, I want to repeat, with laws cited here we don't have any statement about what kind of white is needed for our purposes. But I can ensure, that Pantone's 11-0601 white, in real (material textile) flag of the Repubblica, with bright sky and full light, is white, not grey-white, not lightblue-white, not yellow-white. I'm asking to me really you think that same color on screen, textile and paper has same appearance?
Art.31 comma 2 del D.P.C.M. 14 febbraio 2006: L'utilizzazione di altri tessuti deve produrre lo stesso risultato cromatico ottenuto sull'esemplare custodito presso il Dipartimento del Cerimoniale di Stato della Presidenza del Consiglio dei Ministri, nonché presso ogni Prefettura e ogni Rappresentanza diplomatica italiana all'estero.
Law says don't matter what kind of white you are using, is important that this white has same effect of a Pantone's 11-0601 white on poliestere. Screen and paper aren't made of poliestere, so I think, sincerely, that use simple translated html color code from Pantone's site don't take in consideration real effect that real color has on that kind of textile.
The conclusion of all these words is: Resio can explain to me why you have to perpretate this kind of war again white #ffffff? Really I don't understand.  ELBorgo (sms) 10:20, 11 Jun 2007 (UTC)
Looks like Resio and Zscout370 are the only one who support the grey-striped flag. Can we give up with this madness?--TcfkaPanairjdde 12:49, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
I have watched a lot of national flags with white color in it. With exeption of Poland, that has a strange color that looks like light-grey but is white, all the other have #ffffff as white color. Ad example, how people know that cuban flag's white is #ffffff? Cited source there, don't says antything about what kind of white needed...
Hoping that italian flag remains white, I invite to stop talking about nothing and to leave images as they are.  ELBorgo (sms) 14:05, 11 Jun 2007 (UTC)
While not the Cuban flag, we just need something like this from the Italian Government and that is it. The Bulgarian version has the TC colors (I am not sure how they came out with their colors). As for the Cuban flag, the website I used to cite the color is the closest thing I could come up with. Album des Pavillons 2000 suggests to use the colors 186c for the red and 280c for the blue. User:Zscout370 (Return fire) 21:44, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
An update: see PANTONE 11-0601 TC Bright White page and read the advice... Pantone itself says to us that RGB(241, 242, 241) (#F1F2F1) is NOT 11-0601 TC ... (note that TC is acronym for Textile Color and we are talking of screen color, paper print color... or you want to print commons image directly on your t-shirt? )...  ELBorgo (sms) 16:00, 11 Jun 2007 (UTC)
I hope not: wearing a poliestere t-shirt will make you sweep and smell! Paulatz 17:43, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
Please, using official colors (art. 12 "Costituzione Italiana"), not "invented" like "light grey". Are you Italian? I think no. Why is so necessary change colors of flag? I don't know... --Leoman3000 20:22, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
Pantone color is only for printed flags, for all other application the right colors are green, white and red, so when you will print wikipedia you will use pantone, now and here must be used rgb color. --Skyluke 20:57, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

We are actually trying to have an image that looks like a real (printed/textile) flag... as opposed to some fantastical flag made of #ffffff-colored pixels. ¦ Reisio 23:40, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

The problem is that you do not understand that there are at least two real flags: the textile one, which is subject to Pantone codes from the official decree, and the graphical one, which is subject to Constitution.
The effect of such a difficulty of yours is the madness of the grey-red flag of Poland, which is the most perfect under an official point of view, but ridiculous under a practical one: you can point to everything you want, but you can't really make people believe that Poland's or your proposed Italy's flag have a white stripe which is actually grey.
So, please, stop this madness.--TcfkaPanairjdde 09:42, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
Yes, please ;) --F l a n k e r 14:12, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
Furthermore I would like to point that an official flag can be only made of tissue, in no way a digital image can be considered a flag. Paulatz 14:56, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
About the Constitution bit, yes, the Constitution says the flag is green, white red and is a vertical tricolor. All the law mentioned at the top does is "for these colors, here are the correct shades." Anyways, I emailed the Italian Government to see if they can give me hints. User:Zscout370 (Return fire) 19:31, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
Good luck!!! --Skyluke 19:48, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
About the Polish flag image we have....there is a lot of discussion (even more than what we have) but most of it was in Polish. I am not sure how they got their colors, since they used a method that I am not familiar with. They even mentioned about our debate a few times. I will ask some of the Polish admins to see what they did (and if you still have problems with that image, take it up with them). User:Zscout370 (Return fire) 19:36, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

Tinkering[edit]

Until I hear from the Italian Government, I will try and toy around with the test image I made at Image:Flag of Italy test.svg. Pretty much, I will try to find a white that while it still says "bright white," but come as close to a white image as much as possible. The ideals I got, from the fabric sample at http://www.ferreiraguimaraes.com.br/cores/BRANCO.jpg, is #faf8f9 for a brighter image and f7f6f4 for a little darker (but still lighter than what is suggested above). User:Zscout370 (Return fire) 20:07, 12 June 2007 (UTC)


My uncle that works in Rome made a great (Italian) job: he printed the flag as it is now (with a professional photographic printer, not minnows!) and gave it to a friend who works at Palazzo Chigi. He affirmed that the green-#ffffff-red flag is EXACTLY as the one there.

Now let's scroll up to the laws. Decree of the President of the Council of Ministers, April 14th, 2006, article 31, comma 2. Here it is:

"2. Utilization of other fabrics must render the same chromatic result as obtained with the sample kept at the State Protocol Department of the Presidency of the Council of Ministers, and in every Prefecture and every Italian Diplomatic Delegation abroad as well."

This decree was made because when the colors were decided in 2004 (I remember 2003, but who cares), there was a tough quarrel about the dark tone of the colors. This was because the law omitted the fabric that had to be used with the Pantone colors: "polyester fiocco stamina fabric". A simple-fabric-Pantone-colors version was then tried: it was called "disastrosa". This mistake was later officially amended with the 2006 decree.

That means one simple thing. On fabrics other than "fiocco etc. etc." (cfr. comma 1) you can use the colours you want, just let it have the same chromatic effect to the official ones. And since this flag and its white stripe comply with the Italian laws that concern the national flag, it is IMHO perfect by law.

But this is a humble opinion. And if I am wrong, I am open to any denial.

Peace. Frank87 20:17, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

I don't think you are totally wrong at all; you probably have greater access to offices than I do (all Italian Embassies in the US gave me the silent treatment). I remember about the color issues, since I was on a mailing list that discuss flag issues, and some Italians gave their opinion. One of the things you wrote, about having the same chromatic effect, that is what we are trying to get at here Frank, but since we had problems the last time around with edit wars and single purpose accounts, we want to figure it out before we do anything again. I'll try to get at closest to white as I can, but still have the Pantone shade included. User:Zscout370 (Return fire) 22:45, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
Zscout, law is tough - though, is law (dura lex sed lex). All people that says "#ffffff is double evil" (F=6) have no law support. And I don't just mean the DePreCoMi, but the Italian Constitution itself. Article 12 is short and clear: "The flag of the Republic is the Italian tricolour: green, white and red, in three vertical bands of equal dimensions."
While green and red may be relative definitions, white is "#ffffff", and not something else. Otherwise it's grey, pink, sky-blue, light-yellow...but NOT white.
Don't crush your eyes in search of the true Italian white: it's an useless, meaningless effort. If people open an edit war in the name of the grey band, say these words. "The Italian Law's on our side. Game over." Who decides on the Tricolore, the Wikicrowd or the Italian Republic? I think it's number 2.
Cordialmente.Frank87 10:27, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
And the Italian Republic mentioned about the colors above. But, after talking with some of the Italian users on IRC, we are going to take a break from the issue for both sides to compile research materials. We know the colors are green, white and red (according to the Constitution) and the protocol office said for those colors, use these shades. Now, the thing we are researching is if the Italian Government has a preference to what is used in digital reprints of the flag (like how the Bulgarians and Canadians have it). User:Zscout370 (Return fire) 21:18, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
Feuerwehreinsatzübung.JPG

Take a quick look at this image on the right: the "white" stripes on the firemen's jackets are not white. They are grey, instead. But these stripes have an intense reflection, which makes them look as pure bright white. One actually would never guess they aren't really white, until getting very close to them. This because of the particular tissue, which needs to be made that way for the best reflection. Does this help in explaining that the final scope is a really bright color, which might look bright white even if it isn't white? This has nothing to do with the official color, which remains “white”, as the Italian Constitution says. --g 23:14, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

If you look at one of the non-#ffffff flag versions we've had (one uploaded by zscout, let's say), it will appear white...unless of course you're looking at it with a #ffffff area nearby (like if you're using a default WP theme) ...then by comparison naturally it will appear darker to you. This doesn't meant it's not white, it just means it's not #ffffff. To be clear, #ffffff is white, but white is not #ffffff. ¦ Reisio 00:52, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
As Zscout370 said above, we are going to investigate whether there are official indications about digital reprinting or not. I would have liked to be more active, but I'm temporarily our of Rome, so I expect to be active on this matter in a couple of weeks time; but other Pedians in Rome have already been asked to help, let's see who comes first to a solution. Another problem we have is that there isn't a sort of official office for the flag, so we also need to discover which is the office we should ask to. I wouldn't swear that the Government is really the one which can say the last word about the flag, but this is my mere opinion, and however we will try to know more.
About html, when your browser recognises the tag color="white", it usually renders a #ffffff color. So do most important palettes, like Pantone. I believe that in the meanwhile, if we have to refer to "white", we ought to keep on the #ffffff, unless we find different indications (imho, of course :-) --g 07:59, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
@Zscout: if I look at the non-#ffffff flag version I happen to notice it is not white; maybe with particular monitors it could look plain white, but with mine it is grey.--TcfkaPanairjdde 10:06, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

Summing up[edit]

To me the question appears quite simple:

  • the flag of Italy is red, white and green;
  • every expert of colors knows that "white", like many other colors (i.e. green, blue, etc.), is a family of colors and several white do exist (milky white, bright white, etc). #fffffe *is* white, just have a look!
  • Italian government says that the Italian flag should appear exactly like a Pantone-defined flag printed on a very specific textile-media. It means that copying the Pantone codes on any other media is intrinsically wrong;
  • the only scientific method to clone the appearance is to ask a physician to measure the wavelength of the light reflected from an official Italian flag in a Italian sunny day and to find he HTML color code that reproduces that wavelenght on a PC screen;
  • different PC screens render the same HTML color code in different ways, so the color code found by the physician would not be good for most of other Commons users.

In conclusion, it is evident to me that:

  1. copying the textile Pantone color codes (of white, but also of red and green) to reproduce the flag on a screen is intrinsically wrong;
  2. the choice of the best color code is intrinsically arbitrary (it depends by your screen, the clouds in the sky when you measured the colors of the textile flag, etc.)

The most reasonable way to pick the best (not the "right") colors for the italian flag imho is simply to find agreement in the community. And it seems to me that the community is saying that white has to be brighter. --Fredericks 12:01, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

Dear Fred, I would say it even clearer. White has to be R255 G255 B255. Source: Wikipedia.
#fffffe is R255 G255 B254. A very, very light yellow, but not white Source: the (great) site you linked. Simple as that!!!
So I understand the quarrel about red and green - but still I think that the "what the #fffff***" question is di lana caprina (made of goat wool): much precision about nothing! Frank87 13:47, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
The green and red isn't the issue, it's mostly the white if I read the discussion right. User:Zscout370 (Return fire) 18:04, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
I agree with Fede, except for the fact that the measurements should be done by a en:physicist, not a en:physician. I think that the definitive argument in favor of #ffffff is that any other choiche depend on external factors that we can control: the color themperature of the monitor, its color calibration and the rendering software. For example the proposed color looks ok for me on my laptop with windows, but not with linux, and it looks worst on the monitor I have at work. Paulatz 13:34, 16 June 2007 (UTC)
And if the Italian Government mentions something, we will try and use what they have. I'm done playing around with the image until I get some letters back. User:Zscout370 (Return fire) 21:54, 16 June 2007 (UTC)
You said that already several times; let's hope you won't come back with silly proposals until you gather real evidence.--TcfkaPanairjdde 13:52, 17 June 2007 (UTC)
I won't. User:Zscout370 (Return fire) 21:49, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

Looks likt the first madness (the Image:Flag of Poland.svg has ended, let's hope this madness will have the same fate.--TcfkaPanairjdde 18:00, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

Yes, whatever you say, sockpuppet. ¦ Reisio 19:51, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
Perhaps TCFKAP exaggerated a little - but he's not fully wrong. The Polish flag had the same trouble, that is a grey-dark red flag - which is not the Polish flag at all. I even told the Poles to give a look here, because there was a similar debate. And now the flag (at least the white half) is the real one. I repeat more clearly what the Italian law says:
  • Flag with Pantone colors as they are: NO
  • Flag with what the Pantone colors look alike in a certain fabric and in a bright, sunny day: YES
I personally made the test (through my Roman uncle): the white pigment, on the official fabric, on a bright, sunny day, gives the #ffffff effect. The law says: is the effect that matters. So, the #ffffff is law-backed. Checkmate, White wins. Frank87 08:56, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
I have not heard anything from my email to the Italian Government, i'll try a postal note when I get back from vacation. But while we are still debating about the white, is there any issues with the green or the red colors on the flag or are they ok? About the Polish flag issues, I am not sure how they settled it. I do remember the Polish citing us during their flag dispute issue and they somehow stuck with the grey (I am not sure how they got that consensus, but I can ask). But I still see some articles at en.wikipedia with the dark red and FFF white (with a black border). I, along with Frank, would like to solve the issue (at least protections didn't occur this time, so that is a step up). About the sockpuppet issues, I do understand there is a User:Panairjdde existed and commented on this issue, but the account was closed properly and there is no rule violation, so Reisio, you can stop with the sockpuppet stuff, please. User:Zscout370 (Return fire) 22:28, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
1+1=37 ¦ Reisio 00:41, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
Huh? I mean, what's that sum? I honestly didn't get it Frank87 16:39, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
My sentiments exactly. ¦ Reisio 17:40, 28 June 2007 (UTC)
After letting this issue sit for a while, and taking a trip, I realize that my letters to the Italian Government fell of deaf ears. Even I notice from the Polish users people still try and change the white from the official greyish color to ffffff. I'll change the red and green now, but keeping the white at ffffff, since it seems no one told me anything. User:Zscout370 (Return fire) 23:12, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
<irony> There are more important problem to solve in Italy: the Senate café has no ice cream, and that's a very serious problem, you know. </irony> Z, welcome to Italy: the country which declared its symbols as official in the 2000s, 60 years after their first use. Bureaucracy. Frank87 11:45, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
I can see why my ancestors left Sicily. Anyways, while I admit this issue was a pain, but I personally believe it was handled better, I talked to some of yall on IRC and on it.wikipedia, so we had better communication, no protections and no blocks. I pray, along with you, that this never gets raised again. User:Zscout370 (Return fire) 01:18, 11 July 2007 (UTC)


Why the current green and red are      #008D46      (0,141,70) and      #D2232C      (210,35,44)?? Where did you find these HTML/RGB equivalencies??
I ask because the equivalencies I find are      #009246      (0,146,70) and      #CE2B37      (206,43,55), the ones that are on the table above by Mcicogni.
And another question, if      #FFFFFE      is not white then why you consider      #D2232C      as red?? Should not red be only      #FF0000      (255,0,0) then?? And the same applies to green, which should be      #00FF00      and all these would make your flag             ...
Xagasi 22:55, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

This has been under debate for many years and I kindly ask that we not reopen it. However, I will see why the first issue you raised is occurring. User:Zscout370 (Return fire) 00:32, 26 November 2007 (UTC)
Yes, I have read it all, forget the white, although I have my opinion. But what about the green and red?? where did you get those codes??Xagasi 01:19, 26 November 2007 (UTC)
There is an Italian law that defines the green and white. This ss where you can see it, if you can read Italian. User:Zscout370 (Return fire) 05:19, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

We should use #009246 #f1f2f1 #ce2b37 and protect the file. ¦ Reisio 06:01, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

Where is this table that Xagasi speaks of. As for protection, I see no need now, and if there is a need, there is no way I am going to do it. I am too involved in this. User:Zscout370 (Return fire) 06:12, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

Here. We don't need protection now, because the colors are all wrong; I suspect if the colors are corrected again, those who like to revert to inaccurate colors will return. ¦ Reisio 06:24, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

I think of the various versions of this image has those shades. Or I have it in a test image. Um...let me look in my deletion logs and I can find it. User:Zscout370 (Return fire) 06:32, 26 November 2007 (UTC)
Lo and behold, I still have it up. I had to change the white slightly, but the image is at Image:Flag of Italy test.svg. I still would not recommend the switching of the images, due to the facts of what happened in 2005. Because of what happened here, edit wars occurred at least at two Wikipedias, God knows where else. User:Zscout370 (Return fire) 06:41, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

Zscout370, yes I have read that Italian Law, and from there is where I get the same exact colours that Reisio and Mcicogni said, the ones in your new test flag, #009246 #f1f2f1 #ce2b37. I get them from this link Pantone color finder. I was just wondering where you got these 2 other slightly different colour codes for red and green. The white I have seen has a lot of controversy and I don't care if you want #ffffff or #f1f2f1, although I think that Law is very clear and says it is #f1f2f1. Xagasi 10:47, 26 November 2007 (UTC)


The law, precisely, is this one (pdf), and this is the official text about the flag:

Art. 31
(Definizione cromatica dei colori della bandiera della Repubblica)
1. I toni cromatici dei colori della bandiera della Repubblica, 
indicati dall’art. 12 della Costituzione, sono definiti dalla 
circolare della Presidenza del Consiglio dei Ministri del 2 giugno 
2004, UCE 3.3.1/14545/1, con i seguenti codici Pantone tessile, su 
tessuto stamina (fiocco) di poliestere:
Verde 17-6153
Bianco 11-0601
Rosso 18-1662.
2. L’utilizzazione di altri tessuti deve produrre lo stesso 
risultato cromatico ottenuto sull’esemplare custodito presso il 
Dipartimento del Cerimoniale di Stato della Presidenza del 
Consiglio dei Ministri, nonché presso ogni Prefettura e ogni 
Rappresentanza diplomatica italiana all’estero.

These are then the colors, as painted on "fiocco". Point 2 exactly means that the other tissues (and one could consequently conclude: any other kind of material) must produce the same visual effect as the named colors produce on "fiocco", whatever color codes you might need to obtain specifically that effect. An official sample-flag is in any Italian embassy (and in the Government's ceremonial office). I believe that since what matters is how these Pantone codes look like when printed on fiocco, we should perhaps refer to a "perfect" picture of an official flag and extract from it what we need for the image. Now, the problem could be that cameras might be unfaithful in capturing the "true" real colors, but I'm no technician so I don't know how serious this risk could be; however I hope that this can be a solution. --g 22:21, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

I tried contacting the Italian Government myself about the issue. I first tried the Consulate in Los Angeles, then I tried the Government ministry that deals with protocol. Once again, I heard nothing. If I can very frank with you, I think a solution with what the Polish did is something that we will have to do. We need to have a version where it follows Italian law. Then, for symbolical purposes, we can have a Italian flag that has the center stripe white and the green and red whatever we decide. User:Zscout370 (Return fire) 02:01, 27 November 2007 (UTC)
I don't see a problem with that, but this file should be the legally conformant one. ¦ Reisio 02:09, 27 November 2007 (UTC)
And the red and green are close on this one, but the white is not. Even for the Polish flag example I bring up, because I had this explained to me recently, the "official" Flag of Poland image has the legally correct red but the white is ffffff, what the users demanded. I think that is what we should do for this image; fix the red and green and keep the white the way it is. User:Zscout370 (Return fire) 07:45, 27 November 2007 (UTC)
Yes, well, I am a user, and I (and some others) want this image to be accurate. Upload one that uses #ffffff to Image:Flag of Italy simplified.svg or something if you like. ¦ Reisio 18:07, 27 November 2007 (UTC)
And as I said before, I will not lock this image once such a change is made. User:Zscout370 (Return fire) 22:12, 27 November 2007 (UTC)
Reisio, it is now clear you are not here to solve the matter, but to satisfy your ego. Please, go and play somewhere else.--TcfkaPanairjdde 00:07, 9 December 2007 (UTC)
If your nth account said it, it must be true. ¦ Reisio 19:50, 9 December 2007 (UTC)
Do you ever say something useful, or is it always "blah, blah, blah"? --TcfkaPanairjdde 01:47, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

An idea, again[edit]

For right now, I am introducing the following idea; until we get the white issue sorted out, we should leave that color alone. Hence, for right now, it is #FFFFFF. However, in the test image and in the charts provided here, we should switch the red and the green. I am shopping this in #wikipedia-it now; I got one yes and much confusion. I hope this works out for the time being. User:Zscout370 (Return fire) 01:22, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

I strongly support this solution, by now. I still believe that a professional shot of an official sample-flag would solve the whole completely, but without it, Zscout370's one is imho the best idea. --g 01:29, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

Commons:Administrators'_noticeboard/Attention#Image:Flag_of_Italy.svg. User:Zscout370 (Return fire) 00:58, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

"I proposed an agreement, we should stick to that. Colors back to ffffff"

Just who do you think you are, Zscout? We should do whatever you say? Haven't you been a supporter of the use of the official colors in the past? Now you're the main opposition. If you don't oppose something... then don't oppose it. Make sense. ¦ Reisio 20:32, 1 December 2007 (UTC)
Because this is the general feeling that I have realized now from speaking to the Italian users. If I went forward with my previous stance, then what happened the first time around would have occurred and I would not like to repeat the problems on en.wikipedia again (which you and I had to cleanup). This is the solution that me and Italian users agree with for the time being, so that is why I am happy with this happy medium. I also spoke to the Polish users, who gave me ideas on what to do with this issue. User:Zscout370 (Return fire) 22:12, 1 December 2007 (UTC)
Yes, yes, so you've said over and over blah blah blah if I wanted a parrot I'd buy one. The time being is over. ¦ Reisio 01:49, 2 December 2007 (UTC)
I'm not changing the image. User:Zscout370 (Return fire) 10:32, 2 December 2007 (UTC)
I haven't asked you to, and what's more it's not up to you. ¦ Reisio 00:57, 3 December 2007 (UTC)
Please, white must be white, not grey as you want. First of all, the law you quoted says that those Pantone colors must be used on polyester, but in the second paragraph the law says that on other clothes the chromatic result must be identical to the flag kept by the President of Republic, which is white. Moreover, our Constitution, the top of italian law, is quite clear: italian flag must be green, white and red. Green, grey and red is not the italian flag, everything says the opposite (including the law) is wrong. And you should know that laws often say stupid things (for example, in USA public displays of affection are forbidden on Sunday). So, please, make white as white. :-) --Tooby 07:13, 4 December 2007 (UTC)
In Pantone textile colours set there is not a pure white (like an RGB 255 255 255) so this is why the Pantone textile colours set is not correct for the video rapresentation (in fact the brighter Pantone grey is really the one adopted by Italian flag). Anyhow, I like very much the present colours, I think they can't be nearest the real. --F l a n k e r 21:49, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

Dear Reisio, I gently but warmly beg you: bitte, stop diesen dummen Farbkrieg. Everyone is pro-6xF, and the 6xF stripe proved to be legally correct. If you can't get this, I will explain it you with a simple syllogism.

  • Italian Law asks for what a polyester "stamina (fiocco)" fabric looks like when painted with a #f1f2f1 pigment.
  • It has been proved (I personally asked my uncle in Rome to check out this issue, as I wrote earlier) that what a polyester "stamina (fiocco)" fabric looks like when painted with a #F1F2F1 pigment is #FFFFFF.
  • Therefore, Italian Law asks for #FFFFFF.

You are alone against the law and the rest of the community. Don't you feel a little like Don Quixote against the windmills? --Frank87 22:25, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

As an alternative, you might read the Constitution of Italy, which currently says: La bandiera della Repubblica è il tricolore italiano: verde, bianco e rosso, a tre bande verticali di eguali dimensioni.. Actually, bianco means white. Not grey. Source: Constitution of Italy. --Felyx 15:17, 16 December 2007 (UTC)

<let's laugh about it> The white is often referred as mozzarella white. Would you ever buy a grey mozzarella?!?!? I don't know your taste, but I'm not really into eating rotten cheese. </let's laugh about it> Frank87 18:47, 16 December 2007 (UTC)

Remember that RGB is not a precise definition of color, just a sort of "recipe" to create colors. The rendering of the color depends on the device on which the color is created or the medium on which it is printed. So, saying that something "looks #ffffff" makes no sense at all if you don't specify a "device profile" (depending on color temperature, for example, #ffffff can look yellow-ish or blue-ish or anything in-between). That's what the Italian law is trying to do by defining a specific fabric and a specific Pantone color code (by the way, Pantone is NOT a standard for textile colours), and that's also why no RGB code is given by that same law. Conversion from Pantone to RGB only has meaning if you specify the profiles you're using for the conversion, and end-users will only see the correct colors if their monitors are well calibrated and the software they're using to view the image can make use of embedded color profiles (which normally isn't the case for web browsers).
I personally think the monitor issue is also to blame, but honestly, this issue is over, let this die. User:Zscout370 (Return fire) 10:01, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

Respect consensus[edit]

Reisio did not reach the consensus for his own version of the Italian flag, but it is still pushig its meaningless colour scheme through another image, Image:Bandiera della Repubblica Italiana PMS 20060414.svg, which he claims to be a Category:Flags of Italy member. After several requests to give the reasons for the inclusion of its green-grey-red flag it is stil avoiding an answer (see Image talk:Bandiera della Repubblica Italiana PMS 20060414.svg): maybe someone else than me can oblige Reisio to show the right of this image to be called "Bandiera della Repubblica Italiana". Thanks. --TcfkaPanairjdde 01:08, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

Even if we had reached a consensus here, it would have no bearing on Image:Bandiera della Repubblica Italiana PMS 20060414.svg, as there is nothing debatable about it. ¦ Reisio 01:26, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

(how comes that only now, after several mesages, you are answering?) You called that image "Bandiera della Repubblica Italiana", which means "Flag of the Italian Republic". Here the consensus says that the Flag of Italy has not the shade you are supporting; this holds true whatever name you give to your version. --TcfkaPanairjdde 01:29, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

"how comes that only now, after several mesages, you are answering?"
Because more less-informed people that might not have run into you before will read this page.
I actually called that image 'Bandiera della Repubblica Italiana PMS 20060414' which means Flag of the Italian Republic PMS 20060414. It's very specific; there is no ambiguity. The lack of consensus here is over the "white" of the "Flag of Italy" as depicted in this file, and nothing more. ¦ Reisio 01:37, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

And you did it wrongly: this consensus is about the "flag of Italy", which means that you are not allowed to upload another version with the name in another language. --TcfkaPanairjdde 01:50, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

I'll happily entertain you further at Image talk:Bandiera della Repubblica Italiana PMS 20060414.svg, if you like. ¦ Reisio 02:12, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

For how long? --Frank87 19:31, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

Who knows — probably for as long as he can think up new angles. ¦ Reisio 21:17, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

He won't. I won't. And - as far as I read in the it.bar - nobody at it.wiki will. Reisio, hands off the Flag. no menace intended --Frank87 22:03, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

Will what, think up new angles? Then I guess the entertaining might not go on for that long. ¦ Reisio 22:27, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

New Category[edit]

Please add this flag to the category state ensigns alphabetically under "Italy" Fry1989 (talk) 23:29, 28 January 2010 (UTC)


Descrizione[edit]

{{editprotect}} New descriptions

Български: Знаме на Италия
Čeština: Italská vlajka
Emiliàn e rumagnòl: Bandiera italiana
English: Flag of Italy
Esperanto: Flago de Italio
Français : Drapeau de l'Italie
Arpetan: Drapél de l'Étalie
Furlan: Bandiere de l'Italie
Gaeilge: Bratach na hIodáile
Latina: Vexillum Italiae
Ligure: Bandiera italiana
Latviešu: Itālijas karogs
Lumbaart: Bandera da Italia
Malti: Bandiera ta' l-Italja
Napulitano: Bandiera d''a Italia
Nederlands: Vlag van Italië
Occitan : Bandièra d'Itàlia
Polski: Flaga Włoch
Piemontèis: Drapò dl'Italia
Sardu: Bandera de s'Itàlia
Slovenčina: Vlajka Talianska
Slovenščina: Zastava Italije
Volapük: Stän Litaliyäna

New categories: [[Category:Flags of Italy]] [[Category:Green, red, white flags]] [[Category:SVG flags - Italy]] [[Category:Vertical tricolor flags]] Homo lupus (talk) 00:30, 20 April 2010 (UTC)

አማርኛ: ጣልያን ሰንደቅ ዓላማ
العربية: علم إيطاليا
Български: Знаме на Италия
Čeština: Italská vlajka
Emiliàn e rumagnòl: Bandiera italiana
English: Flag of Italy
Esperanto: Flago de Italio
Français : Drapeau de l'Italie
Arpetan: Drapél de l'Étalie
Furlan: Bandiere de l'Italie
Gaeilge: Bratach na hIodáile
Latina: Vexillum Italiae
Ligure: Bandiera italiana
Latviešu: Itālijas karogs
Lumbaart: Bandera da Italia
Македонски: Знаме на Италија
Malti: Bandiera ta' l-Italja
Napulitano: Bandiera d''a Italia
Nederlands: Vlag van Italië
Occitan : Bandièra de l'Itàlia
Polski: Flaga Włoch
Piemontèis: Drapò dl'Italia
Soomaaliga: Calanka Talyaaniga
Sardu: Bandera de s'Itàlia
Slovenčina: Vlajka Talianska
Slovenščina: Zastava Italije
Volapük: Stän Litaliyäna

Also, the categories [[Category:Tricolor flags]] and [[Category:Vertical striped flags]] should be removed because [[Category:Vertical tricolor flags]] is a subcategory of each. Homo lupus (talk) 00:42, 21 April 2010 (UTC)

✓ Done User:Zscout370 (Return fire) 01:33, 21 April 2010 (UTC)
Minor correction to a mistake I made in linking the Amharic description:
አማርኛ: የጣልያ ሰንደቅ ዓላማ

Thanks for your patience. Homo lupus (talk) 20:27, 24 April 2010 (UTC)

  • ✓ Done odder (talk) 23:14, 24 April 2010 (UTC)