Commons talk:WikiProject Museums

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Red-figure Vases in art[edit]

For an article I need a picture with the Reception of ancient greek red-figure Pottery. I know, Matisse made one, but he's not free to use. Klimt, Gustave Moreau, Edward Burne-Jones, Ferdinand Georg Waldmüller, Max Pfeiffer Watenpuhl and Alexandre-Isidore Leroy de Barde made such Pictures - but I don't find them. Maybe one of you can help... Marcus Cyron 23:54, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

I'm not sure to understand: what do you mean by “Reception”? You search for a modern artwork dealing with red-figure pottery? If you know about such works displayed in Paris (Louvre or Orsay probably), just tell us, you could get it soon...

And if I ask - the next question: do we have any picture of a red-figure vase, who's not from attica or south italy? Marcus Cyron 00:43, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

Not much, but we do have. See Category:Red-figure pottery: a few Arcadian and Boeotian works. Bibi Saint-Pol (sprechen) 20:58, 25 September 2007 (UTC)
Argh - I forgot the Category:Red-figure pottery. And to the first question: yes, modern artwork dealing with red-figure pottery. I don't know more then I already have written above. This is (one of my) my problem(s)... Marcus Cyron 15:52, 26 September 2007 (UTC)


Does somone need special pictures from Berlin, I#M there in 3 Weeks. I will visit the Pergamonmuseum again and the Altes Museum. Means the Greek and Roman Antiquities, the Near/Middle-East Collection and the Artefacts from ancient Egypt. Marcus Cyron 10:31, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

Hum, it would be fine if you could find the following (rare) ceramics, and shoot the detailed scenes:
Altes Museum
  • F 1775; BF cup; Eris
  • F 1837; RF amphora; Zeus & Pandora
  • F 2163; RF amphora; Iris
  • F 2164; RF amphora; Herakles & Poseidon
  • F 2293; RF cup; Selene
  • F 2524; RF cup; Nyx
  • F 2537; RF cup; Athenian legends
  • F 3296; RF kalyx-krater; Amphion & Zethos
  • VI 3317; RF pelike; Herakles & Geras
  • Inv. 1968; RF bell-krater; Laios & Chrysippos
  • F 2588; RF skyphos; Mnesterophonia
  • F 3023; RF amphora; Ixion on wheel
  • VI 3289; RF cup; Phrixos & ram
  • VI 4841; BF amphora; Alkmeon & Eriphyle
  • Inv. 31094; RF bell-krater; Herakles & Hades
But I guess the rest is also interesting... Bibi Saint-Pol (sprechen) 17:53, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
I make a copy of the list and will see, what I can do. Are you sure, you mean the vases from the Pergamon-Museum? There are only very few. The Ceramiks mostly in the Altes Museum. Marcus Cyron 20:27, 17 October 2007 (UTC)
I used the list given by Gantz, Early Greek Myths. Perhaps Gantz refers to the collections of the Pergamonmuseum, wherever it is displayed. So you'll possibly find the whole in the Altes Museum, I don't know how Berliner museums are managed. Bibi Saint-Pol (sprechen) 21:43, 17 October 2007 (UTC)
It's one Collection ("Antikensammlung Berlin") organized in two Museums. In the "Altes Mudeum" mostly the smaller artefacts, here are mostly the collection of the former western part. It's a long and not so easy history. If you're german is good enough, I'm actually working on the article de:Antikensammlung Berlin, the historical part is actually nearly complete. Maybe the book is older or reffers an situation before the reunification. But with the numbers I should find them, if they are in the actuall exhebition and not in the magazine. Marcus Cyron 22:33, 17 October 2007 (UTC)
fr:Utilisateur:Zunkir would be interested by (almost) any Ancient Near Eastern artefact you could shoot :-) The Ishtar Gate is well covered already and we have lots of religious scenes from the Louvre; he would need historical scenes (battles, sieges and so forth) mostly. Jastrow (Λέγετε) 07:38, 18 October 2007 (UTC)
OK. But there are not so much scenes of such kind, mostly religious. Marcus Cyron 09:26, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

Soooo.... - My time was a lot less then I thought before, so I only had the chance to visit only one Museum this time. So I was at the Altes Museum. I made a lot of pictures of the greek and roman artefacts and this time also egyptian (I noticed, I was the first time at the exhebition of the Egyptian Museum in the Altes Museum now, the last time before the egyptian Art was presented at the Bode Museum). One Problem: There are no IV-Numbers at the Antikensammlung, so I could'nt look especially fot Bibi's Vases. Maybe I shot some of them, but I'm very unsure. Next time I will be there around Christmas. And in the middle of 2008 it seems, I will head back to Berlin and then I start a project like Jastrow at the Louvre: take pictures of every artefact room by room. One good Information: the new Catalogue is now there. The third, absolutely new Edition (1st Ed. was 1992, 2nd Ed. 1998). The uploads will follow the next days, actually I didn't saw any picture, I hope, there are a lot of usefull. Marcus Cyron 18:05, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

Good news, we're waiting for it! It's probably time to create a new template {{Information Altes Museum}}, just as {{Information Louvre}}, don't you think so?
The German pratice not to mention the accession number (that I experienced in Munich) is quite uncomfortable still... You can have a look to the pottery database of the Beazley Archive; with an appropriate search and a lot of patience, you can find relevant information on a considerable amount of pottery. I used it for Munich, it works quite well, just takes time. Bibi Saint-Pol (sprechen) 18:42, 27 October 2007 (UTC)
Yes, good idea, I should have think of it before. It wee need specific informations, I also could ask at the museum directly. Actually I'm in contact with Martin Maischberger, who works there (he's the brother of a well known german TV-talk-host). Marcus Cyron 17:01, 28 October 2007 (UTC)
Krater des Taenzerinnen-Malers 1.JPG

So, after some lazy days I uplad now some pics and have a problem. In Berlin is an apulian Painter. At the Exhebition he's calles Tänzerinnen-Maler. Trendall named him (in the german Translation of his Book) Maler des tanzenden Mädchens in Berlin. Does one of you know, what's the english Name ist? I know, the picture isn't goog. But it's really hard to take photos throu the glas. And there's bad light. And the camera isn't really good. But I think it's better than nothing. I hope so. Marcus Cyron 19:29, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

It's the Berlin Dancing Girl Painter :-) Jastrow (Λέγετε) 08:04, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
Trinkgefaess in Form einer Menaden- und einer Silenenmaske 1.JPG
Good, thanks :). Next Quesion: In german this (left) is called "Kopfgefäß" - but I don't know which english word is to use. We don't have a Category for this shape until now, I think.Marcus Cyron 13:25, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
It's “janiform kantharos” (French: « canthare janiforme »). I took one in Munich, caption was labelled “Kantharos mit Doppelgesischt”; could it be said “Kopfkantharos” instead? Bibi Saint-Pol (sprechen) 17:23, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
It seems, there's no main german name. Thanks. Marcus Cyron 17:28, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

Refactoring Louvre cats[edit]


I plan to refactor the Category:Louvre, as the current category tree/names don't fit in the project schemes. Furthermore it could provide a good example for how to proceed in big museums. There are several issues and important decisions to make first, here are my propositions:

  1. Move the main cat to Category:Musée du Louvre: this is the complete name of the museum and it avoids any confusion with the building (Category:Palais du Louvre).
  2. Move the "by room" cats to fit in the standard Louvre department names. For instance, Category:Egyptian antiquities in the Louvre - Room 1 should become Category:Département des Antiquités égyptiennes in the Musée du Louvre - Room 1, etc.

Are there some contradictory opinions on these points? Bibi Saint-Pol (sprechen) 09:57, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

Both are fine by me. 2. means we're going to have hellishly long names for the Department of Greek, Etruscan and Roman antiquities :-) Jastrow (Λέγετε) 10:22, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
We could ask the Louvre to split the department in 3 :) Bibi Saint-Pol (sprechen) 10:29, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
I've been told parenthesis ("foo (bar)") were now favoured over the "foo in bar" style, ie. Category:Département des Antiquités égyptiennes (Musée du Louvre) - Room 1 Jastrow (Λέγετε) 17:00, 17 October 2007 (UTC)
Gut für mich. Bibi Saint-Pol (sprechen) 17:15, 17 October 2007 (UTC)
It's interesting to see two french women talk in german... *g* Marcus Cyron 20:29, 17 October 2007 (UTC)
Mein Geschlecht ist nicht genau weiblich... Sorry to break the myth :) Bibi Saint-Pol (sprechen) 21:43, 17 October 2007 (UTC)
Oh, sorry *shame* - in german "Bibi" is a Name only used for Females. ;). Now I know. Marcus Cyron 22:35, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

Greek Pottery again[edit]

All these vases are in the category "orientalizing". But I would say, they are black-figure. They are produced long after or at the time the stiles changing (640-625 B.C.). And all of the Images have "Binnenritzungen" (don't know the english word). Marcus Cyron 00:06, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

You were obviously right in some cases I just removed.
Most of these problematic images come from Munich where there was quite no indication in the museum; so I tried to sort the collections my best. I'm not a specialist, but I don't think it's possible to classify pottery styles only on the date criteria, specially for the Orientalizing style. Remaining items all present the same Orientalizing characteristics: animal friezes on multiple stages (sphinxes and wild beasts) and gap filled with motives such as palmettes and rosettes. This is an argument strong enough according to me to justify the “Orientalizing” cat: Corinthian black-figure pottery does not use the same subjects neither the same rendering. Of course I can be wrong; but I don't understand what you mean by Binnenritzungen.
Now the Vroulia cup is a bit special and I don't know where it could fit. Seems to be in superposed colors. Bibi Saint-Pol (sprechen) 21:45, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
I think, I'm going the same way like you ;). I studied Classical Archeology years ago, but never was interested in Pottery that time. Now it's my main interrest. Nearly all I know is autodidact learning (with some know how of my time as student). Did you ever read Thomas Mannck's Introduction into Greek Vase-painting? I strongly recommend this book to all who are interested in these themes. And after this Boardmans Handbooks (1. Early Greek Vase Painting, 2. Black-Figure Pottery from Athens, 3. Red-Figure Pottery from Athens - Archaic Period and 4. Red-Figure Pottery from Athens - Classical Period. The you are strong "in Business"). And yes, you're right. The Explanations in german (and also italien and greek Museum) are often very bad made. I try to use the Catalogues - but they are mostly show the main artefacts, not the much "less important". Marcus Cyron 00:05, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

Greek vases in the Louvre[edit]

Hi guys, I intend to update my inventory of the Greek vases in the Louvre. My database uses only four descriptors up to now: 'accession number' (where true accession numbers and so-called 'ordinary' numbers are jumbled together), 'type' (both decoration style and shape), 'attribution' and 'description'. I feel new descriptors should be used as well: 'ordinary numbers', 'reference' (eg. Beazley ref). Shape and decoration style should be distinguished. A thumbnail could be displayed, perhaps. What do you think? Jastrow (Λέγετε) 18:06, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

This initiative is close to my Inventory Glyptothek Munich (normal, j'ai pompé :), although the amount of Greek ceramics in the Louvre is far greatest... Nevertherless, I support your opinions, and I would suggest something like that:
Room/case numbers || Accession number || Ordinary number || Shape || Style || Attribution || Description || Images
With simple links to the images rather than thumbnails (avoid very long loading time and keep the tables compact). Now I'm not sure of the best order column: Accession number as you did or Room/case numbers. One is more “scientific”, the other more “practical” (and would allow to divide the table into sections made by room). Bibi Saint-Pol (sprechen) 19:19, 25 January 2008 (UTC)
This has long been a dream of mine to write a wikibook on the Department of Greek, Etruscan and Roman antiquities for tourists and all 'normal' visitors :-) Jastrow (Λέγετε) 19:32, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

Legality of taking pictures in museums[edit]

Does this WikiProject have a statement anywhere on the permissibility of taking photographs in museums? Or a link to such information? --Elonka 23:27, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

It's not easy to say and I think different from Country to Country, sometimes from Museum to Museum. Marcus Cyron 17:39, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
Since the issue has come up in multiple threads recently (longest one at Commons talk:Licensing#Metropolitan Museum of Art, I think it would be helpful to include a policy statement somewhere here at the WikiProject, or at least a link to such policy statement. I took a look at the page, but can't see anyplace obvious to add it, except maybe in the lead. Anyone else have suggestions? --Elonka 21:14, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

British Museum[edit]

Hi, I'll be in the BM later this month taking pictures of greek vases, and I'd be glad to try and fulfill any requests left here - time and ability permitting. Twospoonfuls 14:22, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

We take all we get ;). A special Vase actually I don't know, but of artists we actuelly don't have with picture samples would be great. I teke a look the next days for some Names. Marcus Cyron 17:41, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
That's great! We currently have a small batch of pictures of Greek vases in the Brit. Room 13 contains a lot of great vases we don't have pictures of. Jastrow (Λέγετε) 18:35, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

2 things[edit]

  1. Again a request for images. Actually I'm writing an bigger article about the Shuvalov Painter ad de:WP. Sadly we only have Pictures of three Vases. Maybe someone has somewhere more... ;) - would be great.
  2. In April I'm for 2 Weeks at Tour in Greece (and this will be an organized tour by the University of Göttingen). So I have the Chance to take a looooooooooooooooooooot of pictures. And I will do it. It will be in Athens including National Archeological Museum, Cerameikos, Akropolis and so on. Then Korinth, Akrokorinth, Epidaurus, Tirnys, maybe Nauplion, Argos, Mykene, Mistra, Kalamata, Messene, Olympia, Naupaktos, Parga, Nikopolis/Actium, Dodona, Meteora, Kalambaka, Delphi, Hosios Lukas, Oropos ans Aigina. If someone needs special pictures, write it here. And then I will see, what I can do. I think, there will come some hundreds, mabe thousands, of Images. Marcus Cyron 23:00, 5 March 2008 (UTC)
  1. There are probably 4 vases of the Shuvalov P currently exhibited in the Louvre. Next time I'll go, I'll try to find them.
  2. The more you'll be able to shoot, the better. Don't neglect little museums, specially outside of Athens: they are not necessary touristic, we don't have any pictures for them, but they often display some very rare/famous pieces. Bibi Saint-Pol (sprechen) 21:13, 6 March 2008 (UTC)
  1. Would be great :). The Louvre has 10 Vases of him (but I think the most not at the exhebition). There are also one at the Cabinet des Médailles and one of the School of the painter at the Petit Palais. There are also one of his Manufactory in Marseille. 2 Vases from Paris are missing. (that's all I know about his Vases in France ;)).
  2. I travel in a group, so I can't decide, where I can go. But you're right. If I have the Chance I will use them. We have in general not much pictures from greek museums. Not from bigger ones, not from the small. On the other hand the most of all museums outside of Athens are small. So like at Delphi, Korinth and so on (so I remember me correct, my first and also last voyage to Greece was in 1994). Marcus Cyron 21:39, 6 March 2008 (UTC)
I'm going to the Cabinet des Médailles this afternoon, I'll go and check in the Louvre as well. As for your Greek trip, I'll try to draw up a list of 'not to miss' items. Jastrow (Λέγετε) 13:20, 7 March 2008 (UTC)
I know, I must go to Paris in the next time... ;) Marcus Cyron 16:39, 7 March 2008 (UTC)
Here you are :-) I didn't have time to go to the CdM, I think I'll go tomorrow. Jastrow (Λέγετε) 19:25, 7 March 2008 (UTC)
Great, thanks a lot :). Marcus Cyron 23:53, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

So, 5 days over, much more than 1000 images made. Most of them outside of building and not through glas, so the quality should not be so bad. And Im not alone - User:DerHexer made around the same number of Images. We will see, what at the end remains. But it looks good. And we have some days more... Marcus Cyron 14:36, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

2 days remaining... - I would say, it was a big success until today (2000= images, some of not so often visited museums like Oropos, Dodona, Hosias Lucas and some others). Tomorrow one day at the Archeological National Museum in Athens... Marcus Cyron 19:12, 10 April 2008 (UTC)
Sad but true on my second day in the National Archeological Museum in Athens the 2nd floor was closed, so I could not take more pictures of the Vases (I was in the middle of the black-figure and only had few red-figure and white-groud, but a lot of geometric from the previous day). All in all DerHexer and I made around 9000 Images, probably 6000 of them will be usefull for Commons. We took pictures of the most Sculptures in the Musem and of some other Art like Bronce Age, Cycladic Art, Bronce Art and Ceramics. And we made Pictures at the Epigraphic Museum! Marcus Cyron 01:05, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

Museo del Prado[edit]

Chances are that I'm going to Madrid for one week in early May. Any requests? Jastrow (Λέγετε) 19:21, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

Same like ever - all ancient art you can get. I'm like ever mostly interested in greek and etruscan Vases. Shuvalov Painter, Euphronios, Exekias and Eretria Painter in the first, but also Painter and Potters we don't have yet. Marcus Cyron 01:02, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
I'm back. I have good news and bad news. The bad news first: the Museo del Prado now forbids photographs, so I couldn't get a very nice bust of Antinous nor the San Ildefonso Group. The good news: all the pottery is actually in the Museo Arqueológico Nacional. I spent some time there and I hope to upload soon pictures of very fine vases, including works by the Berlin Painter, the Meleager Painter, Asteas, the Achilles Painter or the Pan Painter. Jastrow (Λέγετε) 22:50, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
Sounds very good :) (Ok, only the second news). Marcus Cyron 19:00, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

Once more Vase-Painters[edit]

I think, I'm spamming this side full with my Vase-painters... - I've started a list, where I try to sort all names of Vase-painters, groups, classes, workshops etc. in all important languages of Classical Archeolog (English, Frensh, German, Italian and Greek). Maybe one (or two or more ;)) would like to participate. You're eolcome (and I could belive, thi list also would be interesting for Commons). Marcus Cyron 18:39, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

After a longer time I had not the time to write my Articles about some painters, I'm back in Businness. In the next days list of works by the Shuvalov painter will be complete. For that I'm looking for pictures by the Painter of Boston 03.794 and the Painter of London E 208. Maybe someone of you... ;). But I don't think it. These works are not often and only one is located in France (Lyon) as far I know. After the Shuvalov painter I would like do make the lists of works by the Eretria peinter and the Achilles painter. Maybe one or two of yours have some more images of their vases. Would be great. Marcus Cyron (talk) 14:56, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

Request again[edit]

If someone of you is the next time at the Louvre, it would be fine, if she/he could watch out for some vasens:

Some pictures of them would be great. Marcus Cyron 20:41, 17 May 2008 (UTC)


Actually we have the Category:Dinoi and the Category:Dinoi. At last a Dinos and a Lebes are the same. So we should merge the Cats. I would prefer "Lebestes". Cause is: Dinos is an ancient greek name of a kind of drinking cup or of such kind. It's a modern mistake to call a Lebes Dinos. And we should sepereate Lebes from Lebes Gamikos.

We also miss some shapes. We don't have pictures of seldom shapes like a Chytra, a Kados, a Lakaina, Perirrhanterion and Situla. Maybe somone of you will find such a vase on your next visit to a museum. (Maybe fyi, I'm working on a list of shapes, types and forms of vases. Marcus Cyron 22:45, 2 June 2008 (UTC) PS: I don't think it's a correct use of your'e Images?!

Re dinoi and lebetes, you suggest to rename Category:Lebetes into Category:Lebetes gamikoi and then to rename Category:Dinoi into Category:Lebetes. Is that correct? This can easily be done by bot. Jastrow (Λέγετε) 17:02, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
Yes, at the end this is my imagination. But I would not do it without asking. Marcus Cyron 17:12, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
Well, it's been almost a week and I can't see anyone complaining. 'Tis done. Jastrow (Λέγετε) 17:33, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
Now we have a problem. All two different shapes are in the Category:Lebetes gamikoi. If one of you not faster, I will order it tomorrow. Should we create an own Cat for Stands? Marcus Cyron 22:45, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
S***. The bot kept the request open instead of closing it after its first pass. I cleaned up the mess, sorry for the inconvenience. Jastrow (Λέγετε) 06:25, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
Vase support by the Antiphon Painter Antikensammlung Berlin.jpg
No problem at the end ;) - the question is still actual: should we create an own Cat for Stands (see image). Fur such stands, Tripod stands etc. ? Marcus Cyron 12:46, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
Category:Ancient Greek vase supports? Do we need to distinguish further? Jastrow (Λέγετε) 14:37, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
Sounds good. Marcus Cyron 16:52, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

New (old) Problem. I don't know the english names of some shapes. Since a longer time I'm sorting the amphoras (now ready). But I need the names for in german "Strickhenkelamphora" and the "Bauchhenkelamphora". Also for ""Platschkanne" (an corinthian type of Oinochoes).

-- Marcus Cyron (talk) 23:45, 10 September 2008 (UTC)


Commons:Photo-Workshop Berlin 2009. Marcus Cyron (talk) 13:59, 12 September 2008 (UTC)


I'm in Munich in the second half this week (my first time). Any requests? Marcus Cyron (talk) 22:24, 15 September 2008 (UTC)

Louvre overhaul[edit]

Hi guys. It's time we redesigned our category scheme for the Louvre Museum. We currently use as criteria a mix of content type (eg. 'Italian paintings') and location (eg. 'Italian paintings - room 5'). It doesn't match the museum's structure, which numbers rooms by department. As a consequence, we have trouble with rooms that hold different content types, such as Italian *and* French paintings, or Greek *and* Roman artefacts.

I propose we sort our content according to departments, then rooms. Monna Lisa would be classified under category:Italian paintings in the Louvre and category:Department of paintings, Louvre - room 6 (or any other wording to that effect). One drawback is that one of the departments has a pretty long name. I mean the Department of Greek, Etruscan and Roman antiquities.

Any thoughts about this? Jastrow (Λέγετε) 18:52, 27 September 2008 (UTC)

Er, no comments guys? Then I'll boldly make my move. Jastrow (Λέγετε) 15:46, 2 October 2008 (UTC)
I can't say anything - I never was at the Louvre, I don't know the structure there. Marcus Cyron (talk) 18:02, 2 October 2008 (UTC)
I totally agree with you. Louvre cats are a real mess, and we need to redesign them. Your proposition (mixing “typological”—like Italian paintings—and “department-locational”—like Department of paintings, room 6) is simple, clear and corresponds to what is generally done in other museums, with more or less success. OK so.
As for the precise terms, I'm not really decided. It always seemed to me that Category:Louvre sould be renamed to Category:Musée du Louvre, avoiding ambiguity; then all subcats should inherit this change. About the departments name, I'm unsure if we should use the French name or an English translation. English would be OK to me since departments do not really have an official name, but it is a pity to loose the meaning of fossilized abbreviation, like “DAGER” (which does not make a lot of sens with “Department of Greek, Etruscan and Roman antiquities”). Mais ce n'est pas la mort du petit cheval.
So both something like category:Italian paintings in the Musée du Louvre and category:Musée du Louvre, Department of Paintings, Room 6 would sound good. (For the last cat, it seems better to me avoiding double separator like comma and dash, and putting the terms in decreasing order). Bibi Saint-Pol (sprechen) 09:36, 30 January 2009 (UTC)
I would agree about "Musée du Louvre" except it seems weird to me to use both English and French in the same category name (category:Musée du Louvre, Department of Paintings). OTOH, the museum itself uses "musée du Louvre" in the English version of its website (see for instance [1]). I agree with the order of terms you suggest. I would use lower-case for "room", though. I wonder about the use of comma/dash because one department has a comma in its name. Perhaps something like category:Musée du Louvre - Department of Greek, Etruscan and Roman antiquities - room 1? Jastrow (Λέγετε) 18:58, 31 January 2009 (UTC)
Musée du Louvre would be OK, also as language mix with english, because it's the correct name of the Museum. What's to think about ist, that the short form of the name is common. But for other museums we also use the correct name form. Marcus Cyron (talk) 12:36, 1 February 2009 (UTC)
Mixing English and non-English is quite common for museums (see for instance Category:Paintings in the Alte Pinakothek and Category:Interiors of Museo del Prado).
OK for your proposition. Bibi Saint-Pol (sprechen) 12:39, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

OK, so the worksheet we would give to CommonsDelinker would look like this (to be completed):

{{move cat|Islam art in the Louvre - Room 1|Musée du Louvre - Department of Islamic art - room 1}}
{{move cat|Islam art in the Louvre - Room 2|Musée du Louvre - Department of Islamic art - room 2}}
{{move cat|Islam art in the Louvre - Room 3|Musée du Louvre - Department of Islamic art - room 3}}
{{move cat|Islam art in the Louvre - Room 4|Musée du Louvre - Department of Islamic art - room 4}}
{{move cat|Islam art in the Louvre - Room 5|Musée du Louvre - Department of Islamic art - room 5}}
{{move cat|Islam art in the Louvre - Room 6|Musée du Louvre - Department of Islamic art - room 6}}
{{move cat|Islam art in the Louvre - Room 8|Musée du Louvre - Department of Islamic art - room 8}}
{{move cat|Islam art in the Louvre - Room 9|Musée du Louvre - Department of Islamic art - room 9}}
{{move cat|Islam art in the Louvre - Room 10|Musée du Louvre - Department of Islamic art - room 10}}
{{move cat|Islam art in the Louvre - Room 11|Musée du Louvre - Department of Islamic art - room 11}}
{{move cat|Islam art in the Louvre - Room 12|Musée du Louvre - Department of Islamic art - room 12}}
{{move cat|Islam art in the Louvre - Room 13|Musée du Louvre - Department of Islamic art - room 13}}
{{move cat|Islamic art in the Louvre|Musée du Louvre - Department of Islamic art}}
{{move cat|Decorative arts in the Louvre - Room 1|Musée du Louvre - Department of Decorative arts - room 1}}
{{move cat|Decorative arts in the Louvre - Room 2|Musée du Louvre - Department of Decorative arts - room 2}}
{{move cat|Decorative arts in the Louvre - Room 3|Musée du Louvre - Department of Decorative arts - room 3}}
{{move cat|Decorative arts in the Louvre - Room 4|Musée du Louvre - Department of Decorative arts - room 4}}
{{move cat|Decorative arts in the Louvre - Room 73|Musée du Louvre - Department of Decorative arts - room 73}}
{{move cat|Decorative arts in the Louvre - Room 79|Musée du Louvre - Department of Decorative arts - room 79}}
{{move cat|Decorative arts in the Louvre - Room 87|Musée du Louvre - Department of Decorative arts - room 87}}
{{move cat|Decorative arts in the Louvre|Musée du Louvre - Department of Decorative arts}}

Jastrow (Λέγετε) 19:46, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

Symbol support vote.svg  Support  :) Bibi Saint-Pol (sprechen) 13:00, 4 February 2009 (UTC)
Btw, should the parent categories be renamed before of after their children? I'm not very good at that logical stuff. Jastrow (Λέγετε) 13:59, 4 February 2009 (UTC)
It doesn't matter a lot if they are renamed before or after (the only real difference is that after, the history of the children cats will be impacted). So before is perhaps a little bit more clean. Bibi Saint-Pol (sprechen) 14:46, 4 February 2009 (UTC)
What abou using the official diction Denon/Sully/Richelieu, then floor, then the room number? I took some picture of the Ancient Roman busts in the Italian paintings gallery (I think I was the first commoneer to shoot them), I was quite troubled how to categorize them... it's ancient Roman, but it's in the paintings department... I would prefer a category per room, rather then per department. PS: don't use "Musée du" Louvre. Louvre is enough, or btw let's use the English Louvre Museum, I wonder what would happens if we apply the original local language names to Polish or Chinese museums too... --Sailko (talk) 18:07, 5 February 2009 (UTC)
Rooms are numbered by curatorial departments. For instance, there are two "room 2" in the Richelieu wing: one for the Department of Sculptures and one for the Department of Near Eastern antiquities. Conversely, room 9 of the Department of Near Eastern antiquities is located in the Richelieu wing but room 10 is located in the Denon wing. Btw, you're not the only one who shot Roman statues in the Great Gallery, see File:Richelieu Apollo Louvre Ma614.jpg :) The files should be under Category:Musée du Louvre - Department of Paintings - room 8 because the room *does* belong to the Department of Paintings and under category:Ancient Roman statues in the Louvre.
Original names are used in a lots of museum categories, see category:Alte Pinakothek for instance. We'd be hard press to translate the name, I don't think any equivalent exists in English. The problem with "Louvre" alone is the ambiguity with the palace itself. Jastrow (Λέγετε) 19:36, 5 February 2009 (UTC)
I agree with Jastrow: the collections in the Louvre are divided in departments, which are the “first level” of the museum. The wings (Denon, Sully) are highly fragmented, discontinuably numbered, and rooms in each wing are subject to changes.
As for the naming, we have an own convention on the project, which respect the global conventions: Commons:WikiProject Museums/Museums naming. Bibi Saint-Pol (sprechen) 21:14, 5 February 2009 (UTC)

I am a college professor teaching art history and I am new to Wikipedia so I may come up with some dumb presumptions. (Just tell me and I won't get offended.) But as I began to look through the departments to load in pictures, I found the system very confusing. I am concerned about normal readers knowing how to look for the information. For example, under the category "Art" Wiki Commons has "Ancient Greek." Under the category "Museum" Wiki Commons has "Greek Antiquities...." I would like to see the same beginning nomenclature in both places. For example, starting a term with Greek would make it much easier for a normal reader to search for images. I see this as relevant to the discussion on labeling with departments. Normal readers would not know how to look for such a category and beginners with images would not find the categorization. Could we either drop the department so it is not first, or place the word department at the end of the title? For example, the title would be "Greek, Roman and Etruscan Art." If you wished, you could add department with "Greek, Roman, and Etruscan Art - Department of." (It doesn't solve the Roman but it would be a good start.

The only problem that I see with the nomenclature is that the article in Wikipedia is titled Ancient Greek Art.

Also, I think I would like to create, under the Greek Antiquities in the Louvre, at least 3 separate time periods for Greek sculpture. One would be Cycladic Greek Sculpture in the Louvre" "Greek Archaic Sculpture (650-480 BC) in the Louvre "Greek Classical Sculpture (480-336 BC) in the Louvre, Greek Hellenistic Sculpture (336 BC +) in the Louvre. Will this work well? Do you have any suggestions?

Thanks for your input; it's really useful to have a fresh eye looking at the job. Re "Ancient Greek art"/"Greek antiquities": all antiquities are not art. Epigraphic stuff (clay tablets or steles) or archaeological stuff (tools, weapons, not to say mummies) would not be described as art.
The proposal is to have two different types of categorizations. One is rather general and distinguishes between Ancient Greek sculpture, Ancient Greek terracotta figurines and so on; the other one is based on curatorial departments. The second one has a different purpose; it just describes the way things are arranged in the Louvre. It may help someone writing a guide about the Louvre Museum, for instance.
Your proposal sounds reasonable; we must only see that categories are not too specialized. Let me explain: generally speaking, a picture should not be both in a category and its mother. For instance, a picture of the Victory of Samothrace should not be both in category:Hellenistic sculpture in the Louvre and category:Hellenistic sculpture and the former would be the child of the latter. Also, I'm not very keen in "hardcoding" dates in the category names, because some are controversial. For instance, you can also take 331 BC (the battle of Gaugamela) as a beginning for Hellenistic art. Jastrow (Λέγετε) 19:43, 7 July 2009 (UTC)

Some more museums[edit]

Hi, as some of you may be aware, I have already taken hundreds, if not thousands of museum pictures of all kinds in Germany and uploaded them to the Commons. I have put a list of "own" (and others') museum categories at the Museums Wiki here:ände_bei_Wikimedia I'm always interested in reactions about my photographs, so feel free to comment. Large numbers of pictures (ca. 7 GB including all those doubles and museum labels) are still on my harddrive waiting to be uploaded, as you all know how time-consuming this is if done properly. These include more images from the Bayerisches Nationalmuseum München, plus representative parts of the collections on show in the Germanisches Nationalmuseum Nürnberg, the Kunstgewerbliches Museum Berlin, the Tropenmuseum Amsterdam, and the Museum zu Allerheiligen in Schaffhausen (Switzerland). --AndreasPraefcke (talk) 14:20, 31 January 2009 (UTC)

Andreas - I can't await it. I know the problems. Me to has some thousands images who waiting for upload. From Museums in Athens (National Museum), Korinth, Olympia and some other in Greece, Berlin (Antikensammlung, Vorderasiatisches Museum, Ägyptisches Museum, Bodemuseum), Gießen (some Museums), Göttingen (Abgußsammlung der Universität), Munich (Staatliche Antikensammlungen), Vienna (Kunsthistorisches Museum). A Day should have 50 hours and a Week 10 Days. Marcus Cyron (talk) 12:34, 1 February 2009 (UTC)


Template:Autotranslate is now used for {{Information}}. The goal is to show the template in the users interface language. Would it be possible to use it for our museum templates? Jastrow (Λέγετε) 15:47, 8 February 2009 (UTC)

It should be possible to implement it directly in the meta-template, i.e. {{Meta information museum}}, so that no further changes would be neccessary.
The problems are:
Btw, what would you think of making the author field optional in the templates museum?—For many pieces (like archeological ones), it does not have any sense. Bibi Saint-Pol (sprechen) 16:29, 8 February 2009 (UTC)
I'll semi-protect the template so that you can work on it. Re 'author', it's a good idea. Jastrow (Λέγετε) 19:11, 9 February 2009 (UTC) 
✓  Done . Hard work, but it's almost clean. We need more translations now. Bibi Saint-Pol (sprechen) 12:47, 1 April 2009 (UTC)

I am excited. We need these pictures in college art courses in America. It is a great deal of work, but it is most appreciated.


I don't know if this is the right place to make a request, but if somebody lives in Nurnberg of if he/she's going there soon, I would need a picture of a sculpture in the Germanisches Nationalmuseum. It's a wood carvings of Saint Batholomew, by a bohemian unknown master (it:San Bartolomeo (Germanisches Nationalmuseum)) and it's an important work of art of gothic flamboyant sculpture, especially regarding the vaporous dress bending... the aposteles looks like sitting down, with one leg on the another, holding a book and it's 64 cms tall. Thank you!!! --Sailko (talk) 11:15, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

Sorry for asking after so long time. You should ask there. The will understand also english. Marcus Cyron (talk) 02:59, 21 April 2009 (UTC)
I'll might go there this or next year to fulfill your wish (tell me, when that topic is resolved). --Mattes (talk) 23:48, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
The wish is still a wish, thank you :) --Sailko (talk) 16:05, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

WikiProject Arts[edit]

English: Hello to all Art enthusiasts! I've created an Arts portal (stressing visual arts) here at Commons. Please take a look at COM:CPA! New members welcome... (can't do it all by myself)!
Deutsch: Hallo liebe Kunstfreunde! Ich habe mal ein Projekt Kunst mit Schwerpunkt auf Bildende Kunst hier bei Commons geschaffen. Schaut doch bitte 'mal vorbei und mischt mit! → COM:CPA

--Mattes (talk) 23:48, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

General Discussion: Categorization[edit]

Following this discussion we should take the chance to discuss, how to categorize art. First I would prefer a general duscussion, then we could talk abaout details. I would say, we should normally categorize this way:

  • material/genre (Sculptuere, Ceramics, Paintings etc.; with a lot of specific undercats, often in relation with a specific time or place)
  • motive
  • from where; maybe for archaeological artefacts also: found where
  • who made it
  • location today
  • production time

-- Marcus Cyron (talk) 08:01, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

Yes, I do agree with you. But this scheme is what we do since a long time in Ancient Greek pottery for example: File:Geryon Cdm Paris 223.jpg, where the cats are:
[[Category:Geryon]] motive
[[Category:Orthrus]] motive
[[Category:Neck amphoras]] material/genre
[[Category:Swing Painter]] who made it + from where (implicit)
[[Category:Ancient Greek pottery in the Cabinet des médailles, Paris]] location today
[[Category:540s BC]] production time
[[Category:Luynes Collection]]
[[Category:Ancient Greek pottery from Vulci]] found where
So we are pretty good today IMO (except for some specific subcat trees, like in sculpture). What would you precisely discuss? Bibi Saint-Pol (sprechen) 08:47, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
I don't have a problem - I had understand this in the way we should and must talk about ist. Marcus Cyron (talk) 20:10, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
Well, there have been a lot of discussion until now, mainly on that user page. We just agreed on the fact that we should find a more appropriate place to hold a proper discussion. I suggest to copy the whole thread here before continuing, since our project seems the more active in that domain. Bibi Saint-Pol (sprechen) 22:22, 9 July 2009 (UTC)


Extracted from User_talk:Zmorgan#Too_many_cats

Well, the whole case is becoming more and more confusing. Now we are discussing in two separate places of the same thing: here and there (and partially in French). What I last proposed to User:Foroa is that:
  1. Category:Statues of Athena could live
  2. But it would only be a part of "typoligical" subcats of Category:Athena in sculpture, which will remain the mother cat as it should be.
It would give something like:
In that way, the Pallas of Velletri should fit both Category:Statues of Athena and Category:Athena in Greek Classical sculpture. Joie ! Bibi Saint-Pol (sprechen) 13:55, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
Remember not to categorize the talk page. Have we got that many Athena pix? Guess so. But yes, this discussion has long outgrown any user talk page. When I get back from Whitestone several hours from now I'll pick up, if I have more ideas to contribute, in an approprate category talk page. Any interested editors, put them on your watchlist. Jim.henderson (talk) 14:50, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
To make things clear, would you mind to put the most important parent cat(s) after each cat (as I did with one cat)
Note that most cats would be better in plural; there are several to be changed yet in this area.
I am under the impression that you will have more new categories and in-between categories than you have images.--Foroa (talk) 15:25, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
I did it for certain categories. I must precise that I'm only interested in creating Category:Athena in sculpture, Category:Athena in Ancient Greek sculpture (and eventual subcats) and Athena in post-antique sculpture which are for me highly necessary. The other cats and how to arrange them is only speculative—specially for statues and so, which were for me not well-thought and as result are not scalable today. Bibi Saint-Pol (sprechen) 17:36, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

I am under the impression that we all can agree on the category structure. In the coming days I will make a proposition for a more coherent naming. Comments welcome. --Foroa (talk) 06:05, 14 July 2009 (UTC)

Category:Mithridates funerary relief with horse[edit]

The Category:Mithridates funerary relief with horse is in my opinion a big problem. A maiority of the archaeologist dates the relief to the end of the 4th Century BC, ao Kaltsas (Sculpture in the National Archaeological Museum, Athens, The J. Paul Getty Museum, Los Angeles 2002 ISBN 0-89236-686-9, S. 206) or Arachne. So this has nothing to do with Mithridates. And even if - it would not be a funerary relief (how they should have a funerary relief for him in Athens, he was King of Pontos?!), it would be a honory relief. So we have to change this. Any suggestion, to which goal? Marcus Cyron (talk) 10:54, 18 December 2010 (UTC)

If it's plain wrong, we could just start with the title of the only WP article about it. It happens to be here. (BTW, I fixed the external link in the previous comment). --  Docu  at 11:33, 18 December 2010 (UTC)
Thanks for fixing, I didn't had realize it. The article at de is written by me today, so I found out the problem here. Kaltsas has titled this simply as Grave relief - this maybe is a bit less, maybe we should use a more significant title? Something more describing? Marcus Cyron (talk) 14:43, 18 December 2010 (UTC)

Is there a "WikiProject Museums" template ?[edit]

Casuals users who work on museums mays not know the existence of this page ? is here a tempate to tag museums, or museum discutions page to point theme here ? Miniwark (talk) 16:58, 23 April 2011 (UTC)

Not really. But any idea to promote this project would be well received. Bibi Saint-Pol (sprechen) 16:01, 25 April 2011 (UTC)
ok thanks Bibi, il will try do do a quick one, one day in my parse time. Miniwark (talk) 17:14, 25 April 2011 (UTC)

How do you categorise former private collections rooms in muséums ?[edit]

I am actually doing a bit of paints sorting in the Louvre french paintings. Most of the time, the collections are sorted chronologically in rooms. For example room 1 is for 14th century paintings and it's go like this to room room 73 for the 19th century. But there are exceptions.

  • The large paintings who have their own rooms (75 and 77) but they are not really a problem because they have thematic unity (big french paintings).
  • The former privates collections rooms. Actually Rooms A, B and C in the Sully wing, 2nd floor. See here, here and here for the inventory.

This rooms contain paintings from former privates collections and donations, and some of them have a lot of variety. This is particularly the case for the room A and C. And i have actually a lot of choices :

  • Create one category for the room with a name like Louvre paintings - Room A and make her a sub-category of the category:Paintings in the Louvre without regards of nationality mixing.
  • Create the an unique category but make her a sub-category of the "national paintings" categories if necessary.
  • Duplicate the room with nationality. Form example French paintings in the Louvre - Room A ; Spanish paintings in the Louvre - Room A etc...
  • A mix with one main Room A category and national sub-categories.

I am really hesitating about this. is there any previous case ? Miniwark (talk) 17:55, 25 April 2011 (UTC)

I'm not sure. We generally tend to organize museums according to museum departments (if any), and this is especially true for the Louvre. As these 3 rooms (A, B and C) do not seem to depend of one specific department (French or Italian paintings e.g.), the first option is OK to me (creating a category by room like Louvre paintings - Room A and put it in the mother-cat category:Paintings in the Louvre). Furthermore it is the by far the simplest. Bibi Saint-Pol (sprechen) 18:17, 25 April 2011 (UTC)
Ok here it is -> Category:Paintings in the Louvre - Room A. I will add a "see also link" in the french cat as there are a lot of french paintings here. Miniwark (talk) 11:57, 26 April 2011 (UTC)
OK for me. Bibi Saint-Pol (sprechen) 11:51, 27 April 2011 (UTC)

Categorisation of objects exhibited at the Louvre[edit]

New discussion (and I hope final)! Commons:Louvre/structure. Jastrow (Λέγετε) 08:48, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

Athens Kouroi problem[edit]


Hi. Problem: I did'nt find the Kouroi-head in Kaltsas Catalogue of the Sculpures at the NAMA in Athens, I also find the head not at Arachne. Did somebody could tell me something? Is this Head really at the NAMA? Marcus Cyron (talk) 17:39, 14 December 2011 (UTC)

Naming convention for individual artwork categories[edit]

Hi everyone ! I'd like to know if there's a convention for categories about individual artwork, such as Category:Musée_du_Louvre,_Ma_1161. Here what are the options I already used :

  1. Museum, inventory number.
  2. Common name in Museum, inventory number
  3. Common name (Museum, inventory number)
  4. Common name (inventory number)

I think solutions 2 and 3 are the best (maximum information displayed), but they ask for another question : in which language should we write the name of the museum and the common name ? (There's museum language, English, and photographer language). It can be especially tricky for museums with naturally two languages, such as museums in Catalunya (both Catalan and Castilian) or in Basque country (both in Euskara and French or Castilian). Thoughts ? Léna (talk) 11:01, 25 February 2012 (UTC)

This is also something I wondered about. I think the name of the museum is necessary, so I would say #3 for ancient objects. But I think we would also need some convention for modern artworks, where we often use the artist's name but not so often the museum/accession number. Currently we have usual name when it is specific enough (category:Mona Lisa), and "<usual name> by <author>" otherwise (Category:Leda and the Swan by Correggio). I am not sure this is the best solution possible.
For museums names, I think the convention is to use the local name when it in Roman script, and English name otherwise. But I am not sure about how to deal with exceptions. --Zolo (talk) 11:41, 25 February 2012 (UTC)

New galleries in the Louvre[edit]

The Louvre Museum has just opened new galleries “devoted to the East Mediterranean in the Roman Empire” (see These galleries encompass several rooms, and feature exhibits from at least the Department of Egyptian antiquities and the Department of Greek, Etruscan, and Roman antiquities. Any idea of a name for corresponding categories? According to the naming scheme we devised some years ago (ahem), it could something like Category:Musée du Louvre - East Mediterranean in the Roman Empire - room 1. Jastrow (Λέγετε) 11:53, 21 October 2012 (UTC)

First Time Historical Work in Bengal (of India )[edit]

Krishnendu Biswas ( editor of Aamar Rupasi Bangla ) published total Museums of Bengal( of India ). This toughest job is not possible even by State or Govt of India. He is science teacher of Govt School and Post- Modern writer ( short stories and novels ) of Bengal. By tremendous labour, he collected the private, personal & Govt Museums with details. This Museum- issue was inaugurated(2010) in Indian Museum (Kolkata). We congratulate him.