User talk:Donald Trung/Archive 447

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File:Concept coat of arms for the Autonomous Republic of Cochinchina.png has been listed at Commons:Deletion requests so that the community can discuss whether it should be kept or not. We would appreciate it if you could go to voice your opinion about this at its entry.

If you created this file, please note that the fact that it has been proposed for deletion does not necessarily mean that we do not value your kind contribution. It simply means that one person believes that there is some specific problem with it, such as a copyright issue. Please see Commons:But it's my own work! for a guide on how to address these issues.

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Work on an anti-page blanking proposal

User "Koavf" was indefinitely blocked from 09:28, 2 December 2020 until 15:46, 10 September 2022, yet throughout that entire time their userpage remained untouched. When they were unblocked they weren't given a single sanction, this is extremely rare. Both the unblock without a sanction and a user who was indefinitely blocked that didn't have their user page blanked, this makes me wonder if this might be related.

What if it might be standard practice to blank user pages to make it seem like the user was never "a real Wikimedian" to begin with and that the block notices + blanking is done to reduce their entire presence to that of a persona non grata?

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File:YouTube app features for videos for young children (2020) 02.png has been listed at Commons:Deletion requests so that the community can discuss whether it should be kept or not. We would appreciate it if you could go to voice your opinion about this at its entry.

If you created this file, please note that the fact that it has been proposed for deletion does not necessarily mean that we do not value your kind contribution. It simply means that one person believes that there is some specific problem with it, such as a copyright issue. Please see Commons:But it's my own work! for a guide on how to address these issues.

Please remember to respond to and – if appropriate – contradict the arguments supporting deletion. Arguments which focus on the nominator will not affect the result of the nomination. Thank you!

User who nominated the file for deletion (Nominator) : 114.122.23.86.

And also:

I'm a computer program; please don't ask me questions but ask the user who nominated your file(s) for deletion or at our Help Desk. //Deletion Notification Bot 2 (talk) 10:06, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

File:YouTube app features for videos for young children (2020) 01.png has been listed at Commons:Deletion requests so that the community can discuss whether it should be kept or not. We would appreciate it if you could go to voice your opinion about this at its entry.

If you created this file, please note that the fact that it has been proposed for deletion does not necessarily mean that we do not value your kind contribution. It simply means that one person believes that there is some specific problem with it, such as a copyright issue. Please see Commons:But it's my own work! for a guide on how to address these issues.

Please remember to respond to and – if appropriate – contradict the arguments supporting deletion. Arguments which focus on the nominator will not affect the result of the nomination. Thank you!

114.122.23.86 09:50, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

File:YouTube app features for videos for young children (2020) 02.png has been listed at Commons:Deletion requests so that the community can discuss whether it should be kept or not. We would appreciate it if you could go to voice your opinion about this at its entry.

If you created this file, please note that the fact that it has been proposed for deletion does not necessarily mean that we do not value your kind contribution. It simply means that one person believes that there is some specific problem with it, such as a copyright issue. Please see Commons:But it's my own work! for a guide on how to address these issues.

Please remember to respond to and – if appropriate – contradict the arguments supporting deletion. Arguments which focus on the nominator will not affect the result of the nomination. Thank you!

114.122.23.86 09:53, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

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1955 referendum

Hey Donald!

May I please ask for your help for this?

Recently in the page “1955 State of Vietnam Referendum,” I discovered this:

In the section called, “Organization of the referendum,” there is this particular paragraph:

Lansdale cautioned Diệm against electoral fraud, confident that Diệm would win a free election: "While I'm away I don't want to suddenly read that you have won by 99.99%. I would know that it's rigged then." U.S. officials thought that a fair election would have seen Diệm poll between 60% and 70% of the vote.[1]

I discovered that the part above is completely fabricated. And it’s been sitting there for 15 years. I investigated the source, and I present to you below the two pages that are were cited.

It references the exact same topic, but completely contradicts what was originally written on Wikipedia. The quote is completely fabricated, too.

I have highlighted the parts that is directly about the subject at hand to provide evidence.


(Page 223)

“…French government in Paris meanwhile denounced Diem, and Bao Dai entered the fray from his château on the Côte d'Azur, attempting to manipulate factions in Saigon. Diem seemed to be finished by late April. Reporting from Saigon, the influential newspaper columnist Joseph Alsop wrote him off as "virtually impotent." As was often the case, Alsop erred. On April 27, Diem ordered the Binh Xuyen to cease its deployments in the city. The Binh Xuyen disobeyed and Diem's army attacked its strongholds the next day. The Binh Xuyen riposted by firing shells into the park around the presidential palace, and soon Saigon was a battle- ground as the rival forces fought street by street. Artillery and mortars obliterated the city's poor districts, killing five hundred civilians and rendering some twenty thousand homeless. As the fighting raged, Bao Dai summoned Diem to France, hoping to neutralize him. Diem refused to budge. When Bao Dai's officers tried to oust him, Diem turned his generals against them. By the end of May, the Binh Xuyen had been routed and its boss, Bay Vien, flew to asylum in Paris. Diem had prevailed but at a cost that he would have to pay later. Nearly two thousandvdefeated Binh Xuyen, Hoa Hao, and Cao Dai fighters joined the underground Communist forces concealed in the recesses of the Mekong delta, and they would emerge afterward among the Vietcong guerrillas. The United States rewarded Diem for his stubborn courage. A new American ambassador, G. Frederick Reinhardt, landed in Saigon to express unequivocal U.S. confidence in the regime. Five months later, Diem consolidated his power. With Lansdale and other Americans helping, he deposed Bao Dai in a referendum, and promoted himself to the rank of chief of state.'''''''The election, like others to follow, was a test of authority rather than an exercise in democracy. With Bao Dai far away, Diem's activists could easily exert pressure on the voters. Lansdale, with his talent for advertising, showed them how to design the ballots in order to sway the electorate. Those for Diem were red, which signified good luck, and those for Bao Dao green, the color of misfortune. Diem's agents were present at the polling stations. One voter recalled the scene in a village near Hué:'They told us to put the red ballot into envelopes and throw the green ones into the wastebasket. A few people, faithful to Bao Dai, disobeyed. As soon as they left, the agents w e n tafter them, and roughed them up. The agents poured pepper sauce down their nostrils, or forced water down their throats. They beat one of my relatives to a pulp.' In several places, including Saigon, the tally of votes for Diem exceed-


(Page 224)

ed the number of registered voters. He claimed to have won 98.2 percent of the vote having spurned American advice to aim for amore plausible 60 or 70 percent. What the Americans failed to understand was that his mandarin mentality could not accept the idea of even minority resistance to his rule. With no compunctions whatsoever, Diem again renounced the nationwide elections prescribed by the Geneva agreement because, he said, theycould not be "absolutely free."'

If the Communist takeover of the north alarmed Washington and worried Diem, it only partially satisfied Ho Chi Minh and his comrades, who had been denied complete victory at the Geneva conference table. Within a year of the accord, moreover, they could sense that the elections scheduled to unify Vietnam would never take place. Diem refused to discuss election preparations, and the United States indirectly backed him, saying that the matter "should be left up to the Vietnamese themselves." The Soviet Union and China did nothing to press for a political settlement. So the deadline, July 1956, passed without any action to fulfill the most important clause in the Geneva agreement, and ti looked as if Vietnam would become another truncated nation, like Germany and Korea. Indeed, the Soviet Union even suggested a perma- nent partition by proposing in early 1957 that both North and South Vietnam be admitted to the United Nations as "two separate states. which differ from one another in political and economic structure." The United States, unwilling to recognize a Communist regime, rebuffed the initiativea grievous mistake. For international endorsement of "two Vietnams" might have averted the later confrontation. When Ho Chi Minh returned to Hanoi in October 1954, after eight years in the jungle, his problems differed from those that faced Diem. There were no fractious sects and gangsters to challenge his authority. The French army was leaving the north in orderly fashion, and the massive flight ofthe Catholics to the south made his control easier, since their fanatical anti-Communism would not nag him. He could also count on the fidelity of his soldiers and civilian cadres, whose loyalty had been tested during the struggle against France. But he was beset by severe economic difficulties. The war against the French had devastated the north. Railways had been disrupted, bridges blown up, buildings destroyed. On Diem's orders, departing anti-Communist Vietnamese had dismantled harbor installations, post offices, libraries, and hospitals, and stripped factories…:

(End of Page 224)


I scrolled through the history of the article, and found out the individual who originally wrote the original paragraph:

User:YellowMonkey

Note that he calls himself “Yellow Monkey.”

As of now, my account is not automated yet, so I can’t edit anything. Could you please remove the fabricated information, and replace it with this?

“US officials advised Diem to claim 60-70% of the votes to make the election look plausible.”

Thank you so much! :) Tumblereeg (talk) 23:09, 18 July 2023 (UTC)

Tumblereeg, Good points, I will go to the article later to integrate the changes you want. but I haven't seen the source personally so I'm not sure if I could implement the changes as you need to be able to see the source personally. You could also file an edit request on the talk page and someone will do it, but I think that I could probably do it when I get home tonight and I'll look for a PDF of the source online. -- — Donald Trung 『徵國單』 (No Fake News 💬) (WikiProject Numismatics 💴) (Articles 📚) 07:49, 19 July 2023 (UTC)
Also, yellow monkey could be a reference to the Vietnamese year of the monkey and this person's first name could be "yellow" (which is a common Vietnamese name because of its association with the Yellow King / Yellow Emperor from Chinese mythology). It doesn't necessarily have to be a racial slur. -- — Donald Trung 『徵國單』 (No Fake News 💬) (WikiProject Numismatics 💴) (Articles 📚) 07:51, 19 July 2023 (UTC)
I will assume that the reference is "Karnow, p. 223-224." I will find it online and implement some changes based on the book. Great find! 😁😁😁 — Donald Trung 『徵國單』 (No Fake News 💬) (WikiProject Numismatics 💴) (Articles 📚) 07:55, 19 July 2023 (UTC)

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Refererendum

@Tumblereeg: , I found a PDF online. I'll see what changes I can make. --Donald Trung 『徵國單』 (No Fake News 💬) (WikiProject Numismatics 💴) (Articles 📚) 08:10, 19 July 2023 (UTC)

Comparing "U.S. officials thought that a fair election would have seen Diệm poll between 60% and 70% of the vote." with "He claimed to have won 98.2 percent of the vote having spurned American advice to aim for amore plausible 60 or 70 percent. " Yeah, this indeed very much a misreading of the source text. -- — Donald Trung 『徵國單』 (No Fake News 💬) (WikiProject Numismatics 💴) (Articles 📚) 08:19, 19 July 2023 (UTC)

Note: the relevant quote is "He claimed to have won 98.2 percent of the vote having spurned American advice to aim for amore plausible 60 or 70 percent." with the explanation for Diem's actions being later expressed at "What the Americans failed to understand was that his mandarin mentality could not accept the idea of even minority resistance to his rule." I wonder 🤔 why is was misworded like that in the article. --Donald Trung 『徵國單』 (No Fake News 💬) (WikiProject Numismatics 💴) (Articles 📚) 13:10, 19 July 2023 (UTC)

I replied at https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:1955_State_of_Vietnam_referendum#/editor/6 :

== Correcting vandalism. ==

Dear Editors,

Dear Editors,

I discovered a severely neglected case of vandalism/fabrication in this wikipedia page:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1955_State_of_Vietnam_referendum

In the section titled, "Organisation of the Referendum," in the end of the third paragraph, there's this part:

"Lansdale cautioned Diệm against electoral fraud, confident that Diệm would win a free election: "While I'm away I don't want to suddenly read that you have won by 99.99%. I would know that it's rigged then." U.S. officials thought that a fair election would have seen Diệm poll between 60% and 70% of the vote."

I discovered that this part is completely fabricated by a user - and it's been sitting there for 15 years. What was written was found nowhere in the source it cited (Stanley Karnow's Vietnam: A History, First Edition, Page 223-224). In fact, the source completely contradicts what was written.

Upon investigating the source, it is revealed that the quote from Lansdale is non-existent, and Lansdale never cautioned Diem against electoral fraud; he was complicit in the rigging of it. And the US only advised Diem to claim 60-70% of the votes to make the election look plausible - they never said that they think Diem would poll 60-70% in a fair election.


Here, from the source that it cited (Page 223-224):

"Five months later, Diem consolidated his power. With Lansdale and other Americans helping, he deposed Bao Dai in a referendum, and promoted himself to the rank of chief of state.

In several places, including Saigon, the tally of votes for Diem exceeded the number of registered voters. He claimed to have won 98.2 percent of the vote having spurned American advice to aim for amore plausible 60 or 70 percent. What the Americans failed to understand was that his mandarin mentality could not accept the idea of even minority resistance to his rule. With no compunctions whatsoever, Diem again renounced the nationwide elections prescribed by the Geneva agreement because, he said, they could not be "absolutely free."'

I also attached a screen grab of those two pages it cited from, as additional evidence:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/198755574@N05/53059262176/in/dateposted-public/

The vandalism/fabrication dated 15 years ago, on April 5th 2007, from a user called “YellowMonkey." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:YellowMonkey

Originally, the vandalism did not include a source. Here is a log of when he/she first wrote it:

https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=1955_State_of_Vietnam_referendum&diff=prev&oldid=120407682

An hour later, he or she made a new edit that also included a reference:

https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=1955_State_of_Vietnam_referendum&diff=prev&oldid=120416354

He/she cited a Penguin edition of the book, so it's a different page (239) - but still the exact same words and information as the screen-grab I showed.

Here's page 239 of the edition that was originally cited:

https://books.google.com.au/books?id=YdG00yrWUFcC&pg=PA239&lpg=PA239&dq=%22Five+months+later,+Diem+consolidated+his+power.+With+Lansdale+and+other+Americans+helping,+he+deposed+Bao+Dai+in+a+referendum,+and+promoted+himself+to+the+rank+of+chief+of+state.The+election,+like+others+to+follow,+was+a+test+of+authority+rather+than+an+exercise+in+democracy.+With+Bao+Dai+far+away,+Diem%27s+activists+could+easily+exert+pressure+on+the+voters.+Lansdale,+with+his+talent+for+advertising,+showed+them+how+to+design+the+ballots+in+order+to+sway+the+electorate.+Those+for+Diem+were+red,+which+signified+good+luck,+and+those+for+Bao+Dao+green,+the+colour+of+misfortune.+Diem%27s+agents+were+present+at+the+polling+stations.+One+voter+recalled+the+scene+in+a+village+near+Hu%C3%A9:+%27They+told+us+to+put+the+red+ballot+into+envelopes+and+throw+the+green+ones+into+the+wastebasket.+A+few+people,+faithful+to+Bao+Dai,+disobeyed.+As+soon+as+they+left,+the+agents+went+after+them,+and+roughed+them+up.+The+agents+poured+pepper+sauce+down+their+nostrils,+or+forced+water+down+their+throats.+They+beat+one+of+my+relatives+to+a+pulp.%27In+several+places,+including+Saigon,+the+tally+of+votes+for+Diem+exceeded+the+number+of+registered+voters.+He+claimed+to+have+won+98.2+percent+of+the+vote+having+spurned+American+advice+to+aim+for+amore+plausible+60+or+70+percent.+What+the+Americans+failed+to+understand+was+that+his+mandarin+mentality+could+not+accept+the+idea+of+even+minority+resistance+to+his+rule.+With+no+compunctions+whatsoever,+Diem+again+renounced+the+nationwide+elections+prescribed+by+the+Geneva+agreement+because,+he+said,+they+could+not+be+%22absolutely+free.%22%27&source=bl&ots=UB6KC4Egf8&sig=ACfU3U1ADVwM1euzigOhMOLXazqux70sdA&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjbtInf0Z2AAxVICIgKHaGHAmcQ6AF6BAgOEAM#v=onepage&q&f=false

It was until August 20th 2016 did another unknown user changed it to pages 223-224 of the book’s first edition - which is the current one being cited now.

The article’s August 20th 2016 edit:

https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=1955_State_of_Vietnam_referendum&diff=prev&oldid=735357881


CONCLUSION

Could an editor please delete the original fabricated paragraph I pointed out, and change it to: Diem later claimed 98.2% of the votes, against US advice to claim a more plausible number of 60-70%. Thank you all very much :) D3trmd (talk) 03:52, 21 July 2023 (UTC)

D3trmd, Ah, this is the information that I was referencing below, apparently they have already come here. — Donald Trung (talk) 09:43, 21 July 2023 (UTC)

In case it wasn't clear, the above user means the following sentence:

  • "He claimed to have won 98.2 percent of the vote having spurned American advice to aim for amore plausible 60 or 70 percent. What the Americans failed to understand was that his mandarin mentality could not accept the idea of even minority resistance to his rule."

I am not sure if we should remove hoaxes if the requesting party is blocked / banned as I've often seen misinformation reinstated to enforce "WP:EVADE", so I'm not willing to correct the hoax, but anyone else is free to do so at the risk of having the same sanctions applied to them. --Donald Trung (talk) 09:51, 21 July 2023 (UTC)

I'm not going to risk a block to remove a hoax. I know that content comes second (2nd) to sanctions. --Donald Trung 『徵國單』 (No Fake News 💬) (WikiProject Numismatics 💴) (Articles 📚) 09:59, 21 July 2023 (UTC)

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