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Welcome to the Village pump

This page is used for discussions of the operations, technical issues, and policies of Wikimedia Commons. Recent sections with no replies for 7 days and sections tagged with {{section resolved|1=--~~~~}} may be archived; for old discussions, see the archives.

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Cast iron pump with handle dated 1875 in the form of a fluted column with Corinthian capital on a profiled, square stone base [add]
Centralized discussion
See also: Village pump/Proposals • Archive

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SpBot archives all sections tagged with {{Section resolved|1=~~~~}} after 1 day and sections whose most recent comment is older than 7 days.

August 01[edit]

Name in original language?[edit]

Pardon me, but I am a newbie w.r.t. policies here on commons.

The situation is this: Back in 2007, eneditor moved the category "Damascus" to its Arab name with the edit-line: "move to native name according to policy on articles".(link)

Is this still policy? I find "دمشق" quite a bit more cumbersome than "Damascus", Huldra (talk) 20:12, 1 August 2020 (UTC)

@Huldra: It is not. In fact, we have two complementary policies saying to use English for category names: Commons:Language policy and Commons:Categories#Category names. --AntiCompositeNumber (talk) 21:09, 1 August 2020 (UTC)
Thanks, @AntiCompositeNumber: I have moved it to "Damascus", thanks again, Huldra (talk) 21:15, 1 August 2020 (UTC)
@Huldra, AntiCompositeNumber: That is not a category page, it is a gallery page. There is no policy for gallery pages to be specifically in English.
As it happens, the captions on that page are almost exclusively in English or proper nouns in Arabic transliterated to Latin script, so I think the English title is more appropriate, but someone could certainly create a gallery page "دمشق" with Arabic captions. - Jmabel ! talk 02:55, 2 August 2020 (UTC)
I suppose I should have looked at that link then. In that case, Commons:Galleries#Naming_conventions says that the local language would probably be better there, though I think either would be permissible. --AntiCompositeNumber (talk) 19:07, 2 August 2020 (UTC)
Time to move it back.--RZuo (talk) 12:13, 9 August 2020 (UTC)

August 03[edit]

Category for recipe tutorial videos?[edit]

What should be the name of this category for this kind of videos https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KlomKt5faIE ? There're lots on the Internet. I suppose some must have been uploaded. They're like recipes, but they are no longer paper based but actual footage teaching the audience. An analogous example I thought of is cooking shows on TV.--RZuo (talk) 16:13, 3 August 2020 (UTC)

I will create Category:Recipe videos.--RZuo (talk) 00:36, 10 August 2020 (UTC)

August 04[edit]

Flat lists of creative works?[edit]

I was trying to find proper parents for Category:Maau Daan Ting Ging Mung, so I looked to Italian operas like Category:Turandot (Puccini) for inspiration. It turns out operas are not put into a single cat but segregated by composer, language or year. I cant do the same for Cantonese operas because, for a lot of these, authorship is not well documented. A user created a handful of categories in the format of Repertoires of ... opera as catch-all, though.

So this makes me wonder, should creative works be put into flat lists like people into people by name? I can find two: Category:Books by title Category:Films by title. Is it a good idea for other kind of works?--RZuo (talk) 18:55, 4 August 2020 (UTC)

@RZuo: There's broad consensus for "by name" categories. If you think one would be useful, then I'd recommend just creating it yourself. By the way, two more pre-existing ones are Newspapers by name and Podcasts by name, and you can find lots of them in Categories by name. –IagoQnsi (talk) 00:56, 7 August 2020 (UTC)

August 05[edit]

About copyright status of "Sansho_Dayu_poster.jpg"[edit]

File:Sansho_Dayu_poster.jpg

As for the File:Sansho_Dayu_poster.jpg, there is surely a definite question in copyright status. I doubt its illegal usage against a relative copyright law: it says materials will be protected for 70 years after public release. The poster in question was published in 1954, therefore this is surely protected until 2024, I guess. --Green (talk) 02:09, 5 August 2020 (UTC)

  • @Green: The PD tag on the page says "the work is now in the public domain in Japan because the copyrights of the works in names of organizations, in Japan expire in 50 years after the publication". Is that not true? - Jmabel ! talk 16:52, 5 August 2020 (UTC)
    • @Snek01: You reverted the image with a resolution of 580×763 back to the low resolution of 180×258. Does that change have something to do with the copyright? The source

http://homepage2.nifty.com/e-tedukuri/sansyoudayuu.htm does not exist anymore. Wouter (talk) 19:45, 5 August 2020 (UTC)

@Jmabel: Japanese copyright law had been revised in 2004, so it extended from 50 to 70 years.
The Supreme Court ruled that "the amended law that came into effect on January 1, 2004 does not apply to works whose copyright ended on December 31, 2003" (that is, they do not extend to 70 years after publication). It has been finalized (the Supreme Court's third small court ruling on December 18, 2007).
The movie poster shows "copyrighted (C)1954". The term "movie work" as used in this Act shall include works that are expressed in a manner that produces a visual or audiovisual effect similar to that of a movie and that are fixed to the thing. This is my point of view. --Green (talk) 02:05, 6 August 2020 (UTC)

@Green: I'm totally out of my depth here. I suggest closing this here and opening it at Commons:Village pump/Copyright where there will be a lot more expertise. - Jmabel ! talk 03:12, 6 August 2020 (UTC)

Free images from needpix...[edit]

Recently google image search has been reporting freely reusable images from some sites that are new to me... including needpix.com

I recently uploaded an image from needpix.

The image itself said the image was public domain

And the FAQ says all the images on the site are "Creative Commons Zero License for Public Domain".

Is there any reason not to take the FAQ at face value? Geo Swan (talk) 07:53, 5 August 2020 (UTC)

Example of a file hosted on needpix, with no attribution, no source.
Yes.
On the 'about us' page: All photos hosted here are collected only from public domain sources such as: pixabay.com, pond5.com, picjumbo.com, publicdomainpictures.net, and others.
I have added a thumb of needpix file which happens to be the Commons logo (TM). The only attribution is to the WikimediaImages pixabay account which is in no way 'official' and is certainly not the creator of this image, nor the thousands of other Commons images hosted at that pixabay account without any source links back to the Wikimedia Commons project. It perfectly illustrates the problem with public domain harvesting websites that somewhat carelessly auto-harvest millions of files, and in the process lose EXIF data, attribution statements, or even preservation of titles because they take no responsibility for 'mining' the image back to a true source site. Consequently there is no way of credibly checking whether a good quality photograph from this site really is public domain, or whether somewhere along the chain of bot harvesters, they have mistakenly taken CC-BY files, or CC-NC, or even all rights reserved photographs that have been Flickrwashed, potentially deliberately, at other sites.
The only easy way to use sites like this is to limit uploads to images where the stated source author has been demonstrated as being reliable, then ensure that original attribution is preserved during upload to Commons. Preferably, the 'image mining' should be done at the same time to find and quote an original source site link, rather than leaving it deliberately obscured so that "needpix" can continue making advertising revenue every time someone is forced to visit their website to attempt a source verification. -- (talk) 09:13, 5 August 2020 (UTC)
BTW, with regard to the specific upload already done, it's better to link to the source at "publicdomainpictures.net" because it's clear in their profile there that they take PayPal payments for their stock photography, include a link to their own photography website (which would be a perfect verifiable source) and even include a PayPal button for modest payments. Just having their name in text on a Commons image page is not especially fair to this professional photographer. -- (talk) 09:24, 5 August 2020 (UTC)

Notification about a proposed global ban of User:Eric abiog[edit]

August 06[edit]

Photo challenge June results[edit]

Do it yourself: EntriesVotesScores
Rank 1 2 3 3
image Home-made redcurrant jam - jars between pulp residue and stalks.jpg Dice made of polymer clay (handmade).jpg Gambrel Shed construction.jpg Drawings made with twigs and self-made natural inks..jpg
Title Home-made redcurrant jam - DIY - jars
between pulp residue and stalks
Dice made of polymer
clay (handmade).
Three stages of shed construction Drawings made with
twigs and self-made
natural inks.
Author Franz van Duns Annatsach Jarekt Matylda Florén
Score 9 8 6 6
Rainwater drainage: EntriesVotesScores
Rank 1 2 3
image Giechburg Wasserspeier-20180223-RM-155737.jpg Gutter in Dawanshiju 2.jpg Kumpulanpuro culvert.jpg
Title Gargoyle at the Giechburg near
Scheßlitz in Upper Franconia
Central gutter in the
village of Dawanshiju, China
Kumpulanpuro culvert,
Helsinki
Author Ermell Mx. Granger Kriomet
Score 22 13 13

Congratulations to Franz van Duns, Annatsach, Matylda Florén, Jarekt, Ermell, Mx. Granger and Kriomet. -- Jarekt (talk) 03:39, 6 August 2020 (UTC)

Technical Wishes: FileExporter and FileImporter become default features on all Wikis[edit]

Max Klemm (WMDE) 09:13, 6 August 2020 (UTC)
@Max Klemm (WMDE): all wiki's you say? Seems a bit pointless on wiki's that don't use local upload or only for non-free files. Multichill (talk) 19:35, 6 August 2020 (UTC)
@Multichill: Yes if they have 0 files. Ms.wiki have closed for uploads years ago but have many freely licensed files that could be moved once they are checked. But if they don't have files then noone will ever even notice that FileImporter excist. --MGA73 (talk) 20:12, 6 August 2020 (UTC)
@Multichill, MGA73:, thanks for your remark. Yes, it was activated for all wikis. You are right, it does not make a difference for wikis that do not use local upload, but it was less work to activate it for all wikis. And, it does not do any harm if it is activated, but not used, right? -- For the Technical Wishes Team: Max Klemm (WMDE) (talk) 11:49, 11 August 2020 (UTC)
@Max Klemm (WMDE): "until", you wrote? How about "starting"?   — Jeff G. please ping or talk to me 06:40, 7 August 2020 (UTC)
@Jeff G.: Originally it was supposed to start on August 5. I think what is meant that it is delayed and it will not start until August 7. :-) --MGA73 (talk) 10:56, 7 August 2020 (UTC)
Hi @Jeff G., MGA73:, thanks for your question. @MGA73: is right, it got activated on August 5, 2020. When we drafted this announcement, we were not sure if the feature would be activated at the same time for all wikis or at different points in time during the first week of August. We knew for sure that it would be released on all wikis on August 7. That is why we decided to use the "until August 7" formulation. I hope this answers your question. -- For the Technical Wishes Team: Max Klemm (WMDE) (talk) 11:49, 11 August 2020 (UTC)

Anyway I love FileImporter and if anyone need help setting it up feel free to ping me. --MGA73 (talk) 11:34, 7 August 2020 (UTC)

@MGA73: Great to hear that you like the feature and thanks for offering support to other users. -- For the Technical Wishes Team: Max Klemm (WMDE) (talk) 11:49, 11 August 2020 (UTC)

Requesting feedback for {{According to external metadata}}[edit]

I've just made {{According to external metadata}}, a file page template similar to {{According to Exif data}}. When uploading files, I often want to include the date from the Last-Modified HTTP header at the URL where I found it. The Last-Modified header is valuable because it often reflects the exact time that the file was first published. However, it's a machine-generated timestamp, so really it could mean anything (hence the need for this template).

Feedback would be appreciated, especially on the template's wording. I didn't want to use any obscure jargon, nor did I want to make this specific to the Last-Modified header, as there are many other sources of date metadata (e.g. HTML meta tags, cache-busting query strings, site-specific APIs, etc). However, I wonder if I made the wording too generic... Anyway, I would also greatly appreciate help from anyone who can add more translations. Thanks, IagoQnsi (talk) 19:00, 6 August 2020 (UTC)

  • Looks like an interesting idea! -- Tuválkin 07:54, 7 August 2020 (UTC)
how does one check whether that data is correct? i mean, when a user uses this template, how does another verify the parameters defined?--RZuo (talk) 13:16, 7 August 2020 (UTC)
@RZuo: In general, the metadata can be found somewhere at the source link. The exact location at the source will vary from case to case, as there are innumerable different ways that websites might show this sort of metadata. As I mentioned before, the Last-Modified header was the impetus for making this template, so here's a screenshot demonstrating how to find that using Chrome's developer tools: File:How to find the Last-Modified header in Blink.png. But that's just one of many possible ways it could be stored, and this is all assuming that the source URL still works (the metadata is not stored anywhere in the file itself). In general, I see {{According to external metadata}} as a huge disclaimer, i.e. "I dug up this date somewhere; it may not be accurate or reproducible, but it's all we have". –IagoQnsi (talk) 14:41, 7 August 2020 (UTC)
How about adding another parameter that lets you enter a free-form description of where exactly you found that information and how reliable you think it is? --El Grafo (talk) 12:21, 10 August 2020 (UTC)

August 07[edit]

Stop sign[edit]

Stopaanvraagknop waterbushalte Biesbosch.jpg

Wich category can I use for this stop sig button?Smiley.toerist (talk) 11:23, 7 August 2020 (UTC)

May be Category:Request stop push buttons Wouter (talk) 12:26, 7 August 2020 (UTC)

Strange WD link below the edit window of a file[edit]

Hi, does anyone know what the strange Wikidata link at the bottom of e. g. [1] means?

Wikidata entities used in this page
M84213045: Title

It points to an non-existing entity. With other M-IDs the same happens with all files.

Thank you in advance, --Arnd (talk) 12:58, 7 August 2020 (UTC)

84213045 is that page's page ID.
if you try editing File:FICO logo.svg, you'll see two lines:
M7464032: Title
FICO: Sitelink, Some labels
because this page used {{Depicted logo}} and {{Label}} which used data from wikidata.
i dont know enough about this, what purposes they serve, etc.--RZuo (talk) 13:16, 7 August 2020 (UTC)
It's a bug, see phab:T250611. Multichill (talk) 13:55, 7 August 2020 (UTC)

August 08[edit]

Despair[edit]

Has anybody thought that for images like this, with the "information" provided, there might never be an answer to where the location is? 1234qwer1234qwer4 (talk) 15:34, 8 August 2020 (UTC)

  • @1234qwer1234qwer4: Of course. What's your point? - Jmabel ! talk 16:01, 8 August 2020 (UTC)
    • I find that a bit sad, especially for images of big landscapes where the location is rather important. 1234qwer1234qwer4 (talk) 18:06, 8 August 2020 (UTC)
@1234qwer1234qwer4: Yes. We have 12 photos from photographer Nicole Vanlimbeek uploaded to 500px with bad names, good luck finding location info for any of them.   — Jeff G. please ping or talk to me 16:18, 8 August 2020 (UTC)
Probably in or near Category:Edmonton given their userpage. You could always ask them on Twitter or instagram. Thanks. Mike Peel (talk) 17:09, 8 August 2020 (UTC)
It's probably somewhere around Victoria, British Columbia, as you can see from her IG posts https://www.instagram.com/p/nuGcX8p8xS/ https://www.instagram.com/p/s75QVVJ84W/ (Esquimalt Lagoon). Edmonton doesnt have seas.
Indeed, it's so easy to dig up this set of photographs' locations. All you need to do is go back to the original 500px page and then google the photographer.
If you want to be sure, message her on IG, or ask Vancouver Islanders to pinpoint it.--RZuo (talk) 12:13, 9 August 2020 (UTC)
  • @1234qwer1234qwer4: That happens a lot of in these “artsy” album websites, as “excessive information” might be deterimental to the enjoyment of photography as art (they say). I had the same problem with Fotopedia and Unsplash in the past — many of my uploads from those sources remain unidentified (example). However some times it is possible to sleuth out the location, either by just asking the author (example) or by guess-working from details of the image and eventually confirm by comparing with known, similar photos and/or other date (example). -- Tuválkin 20:31, 9 August 2020 (UTC)
  • Reposting and expanding the above. Not sure what happened here — I’m going to go with lack of attention, rather than eggregious bad faith or dismal incompetence. -- Tuválkin 21:37, 9 August 2020 (UTC)

August 09[edit]

Latvian road signs[edit]

Since the new law of road traffic regulations, the numbering of Latvian road signs has slightly changed. Changing names one by one would be quite tedious. Is there anyone with renaming permissions, that might help me with this task? Soshial (talk) 05:25, 9 August 2020 (UTC)

@Soshial: It's about the ones with an A in the number currently, right? 1234qwer1234qwer4 (talk) 11:17, 9 August 2020 (UTC)
Exactly, @1234qwer1234qwer4:. This letter numbering is not used anymore. Also, some new signs might have appeared/removed, but I am not sure. I can only say, that this website is the official site to publish Latvia State laws. Soshial (talk) 16:43, 9 August 2020 (UTC)
@Soshial: I think it is a bit problematic to change the names, as pages that use them might not get updated correctly and the old and new names are interfering. I could do this though. 1234qwer1234qwer4 (talk) 20:30, 9 August 2020 (UTC)
Can we do this gradually one after one? First, first image is renamed, then bot makes relevant edits on all wiki-sites, that use this image; only then rename the next one. What do you think? (Also, starting renaming from the highest numbers is important to rule out interference.) Soshial (talk) 04:37, 10 August 2020 (UTC)
@Soshial: I planned to do it that way, but the success also depends on how many of the images are used anywhere. I can only rename a file without leaving a redirect if it is not used. I also think leaving redirects makes sense for the ones with a letter to leave it backwards compatible at least for these ones. 1234qwer1234qwer4 (talk) 10:10, 10 August 2020 (UTC)
I looked at some of the signs and almost none of them are heavily used. Obviously, I haven't clicked through ALL of them. Soshial (talk) 11:08, 10 August 2020 (UTC)

PDF to images[edit]

Birds of the British Isles - John Duncan - frontispiece - Great Auk.jpg

I've been looking at File:Birds of the British Isles (IA birdsofbritishis00dunc).pdf, from which I was able to download the page-image:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/c8/Birds_of_the_British_Isles_%28IA_birdsofbritishis00dunc%29.pdf/page8-633px-Birds_of_the_British_Isles_%28IA_birdsofbritishis00dunc%29.pdf.jpg

and upload it as the above image.

Almost all of the other pages in the work have a unique illustration, but alongside text.

Is there a tool or script which will upload all of the page images (or a selected subset) from a PDF that is already on Commons, into a chosen category, so that I can then work through them with the crop tool? Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 17:57, 9 August 2020 (UTC)

If its an embedded illustration its probably best to use pdfimages[2] command line tool. Mediawiki's jpg conversion will probably not be at ideal resolution, and will recompress the image which will mildly reduce quality. Bawolff (talk) 06:30, 10 August 2020 (UTC)

August 10[edit]

Manpower enough but tossed aside[edit]

I put a video about opposition candiate in yesterday's Belarusian presidential election as today's MOTD, because it's quite symbolic. A bureaucratic admin messed with it. I've been waiting for autopatrol for 10 days. And I posted a reminder on COM:AN yesterday. After all that, still no one did anything about it, so today's MOTD went live without an English caption.

Some people were complaining about lack of manpower, which is obviously not true. On the contrary, neglect and bureaucracy are letting everything down.--RZuo (talk) 00:36, 10 August 2020 (UTC)

Strategy transition design draft[edit]

I have been working for more than a month in the Strategy transition design group - a body of about 20 people who were working together to establish the principles to be used to design the events to implement the strategy recommendations. (Do not even ask me how I ended up to be part of the group). Anyway, now we have produced the draft: meta:Strategy/Wikimedia movement/2018-20/Transition/Events Outline/Draft. It is written for the whole movement, not just for the projects, and certainly not just for Commons, so the language from our perspective can look a bit bureaucratic, and the text a bit (or sometimes too) unspecific. However, I would encourage all the users interested in the relation between projects and WMF, and generally in the development of the Wikimedia movement, to have a look, and, specifically, to look at whether the communities (in the language of the document, online communities) will be involved enough, how they will be involved, and how this involvement can be stimulated and improved. Whereas obviously there were many people involved in the creation of the draft, and these people have very different interests, the importance of involving the projects has been recognized by everybody as a crucial issue. What we are trying to avoid is the (unfortunately, common) situation when the projects are completely decoupled from the process, the process runs on, and at some point some decision taken without even thinking about the projects comes out of the blue and gets a (predictable) very negative reaction.

The draft has been posted on Thursday 6 August and will be open for comments until 20 August (my apologies for posting here only now, I was on holidays this week and just returned home). You are welcome to leave the comments on the talk page of the draft on Meta (where it will be directly read by the WMF people running the process), or here. I will be watching both pages anyway, and will somehow make sure that useful comments do not get lost. I can probably clarify things if needed. There is also some discussion ongoing on the English Wikipedia, w:en:Wikipedia:Village pump (WMF)#Strategy transition design draft, which might (or might not) clarify some issues.

For the full disclosure, whereas the process has been run by the WMF, I was never paid by the WMF, nor ever been a member of any affiliate. I participate in the group solely in my volunteer capacity.--Ymblanter (talk) 08:51, 10 August 2020 (UTC)

  • Thanks for reporting this here, Ymblanter, and for your candor. However, as stressed in the en.wp discussion, this is past the discussion phase and counter-arguments presented back then were apparently ignored (in what concerns Commons, the push for allowing NC/ND licensing from selected sources). What happens next? That’s what left to be said concerning “implementation”. -- Tuválkin 22:51, 10 August 2020 (UTC)
    Yes, but, as I said there, this is presumably a result of advocacy of some groups. Clearly there are different groups in the movement which have different, sometimes polar interests. If we ignore the process, we miss a chance to influence it. Whereas at this stage it is too early to discuss notability of license issues, if the process is not organized in the optimum way, we may have our opinions not heard again.--Ymblanter (talk) 10:23, 11 August 2020 (UTC)
  • Hi Tuválkin, what happens next is very much up to communities during Transition events as Ymblanter points out. On our end, we have to do a much better job to make sure the events are explicit and very clear regarding the topic and outcome, so people can choose which event(s) to join. Given current financial constraints in the world, only a limited number of global and local priorities as identified by communities in the Transition events can be implemented in the first 18 months. Movement Strategy is a 10-year document with over 50 recommended actions and changes. Many ideas may lay dormant for the time being, many will require further discussions. Movement Strategy will not be implemented in a top-down or imposing way. Implementation will be collaborative and movement-wide involving different stakeholders to take it forward, including communities, affiliates and the Wikimedia Foundation. That is why Transition is happening in the first place and why a Design Group was convened to make sure Transition can involve the diversity of our movement, including our major projects. Notability is one example of one change and action under Innovating in Free Knowledge and it states, consult with communities and experts to identify policies in Wikimedia projects that act as barriers of access to content related to underrepresented communities (e.g. Notability). It could be that notability is not identified as a priority for implementation in the first batch at all. Such a significant change would never happen without consulting with communities. Thank you so much for your input and concern and I hope we can benefit from your experience and expertise in the Transition events. MPourzaki (WMF) (talk) 21:11, 11 August 2020 (UTC)
  • @MPourzaki (WMF): Did I mention notability? I didn’t: That’s the carmudgeons’ next door shtick (and rightly so). I think it’s funny how you guys talk about «communities» and «stakeholders», while in this game there’s only two types of players: Editors who contribute to the projects and, with that, cause the donations go on flowing in, and people who apparently have no idea about what we are doing here but who, mainly through personal or national priviledge that gets them to attend meatspace events, captured the reins of decision and do whatever they please. I would presume that those two group overlap, or even that the latter is a subset of the former, but these decisions show that’s not so, sadly. Now, joining discussions to get repeatedly ignored is to give credance to that whole process, and it’s simpler and less stressful to just refuse to play it: Ten years of being ignored or overruled in everything that matters — from VE through MV and WD then KE to AW — shows also that the implicit threat isn’t working anymore: If we don’t join your discussions we’ll be overruled? Well, we’ll be overruled all the same if we do — rather not to waste one’s time and serenity, and keep on editing instead: After all, someone has to keep the donations flowing in. -- Tuválkin 00:35, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

August 11[edit]

Category:View(s) to[edit]

Special:Categories/View to

Special:Categories/Views to

By naming convention Category:Views by country they should be views of. However, it seems this topic was not discussed in a CfD before, so it's now brought up here. In particular, views to are mostly related to German places.

I propose moving all to views of XX to harmonise the names.--RZuo (talk) 20:49, 11 August 2020 (UTC)

  • Not sure if this is on topic, but it seems that categories named "View(s) of" and "View(s) from" are much more numerous than "View(s) to". -- Tuválkin 00:38, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

August 12[edit]