User talk:Griceylipper

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Copyright status: File:Portrait of HMS Newcastle (1653) - 02.jpg

Copyright status: File:Portrait of HMS Newcastle (1653) - 02.jpg

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Jcb (talk) 23:19, 22 March 2019 (UTC)

Copyright status: File:Portrait of HMS Newcastle (1653).jpg

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Jcb (talk) 23:19, 22 March 2019 (UTC)

Isle of... islands

I have found the following places with "Isle of..." in the Shetland archipelago/council area:

The following have settlements (or places small than settlements) nearby:

• Isle of Gunnister, Gunnister is nearby
• Isle of Nibon, Nibon is nearby
• North Isle of Gletness and South Isle of Gletness, Gletness is nearby
• Isle of Stenness, Stenness is nearby
• Isle of West Burrafirth, West Burrafirth is nearby

The following don't appear to have any such nearby places:

• Isle of Niddister, only the Bight of Niddister appears nearby, could there be a place called simply "Niddister" that isn't on the OS maps?
• Isle of Noss, Noss is on the mainland but nearly 20 miles away
• Isle of Westerhouse, there are places on Unst and Yell but nothing near the island, could there be something that's not recorded on the OS maps?

Not actually islands:

• Isle of Fethaland, Fethaland is attached

You're right that most places with "Isle" in their name are named after another place (so it was needed to distinguish) so indeed only the Isle of Noss is an exception there and as you note Isle of Niddister and Isle of Westerhouse are very small indeed! Do you have any images of the Isle of Westerhouse? so that we can make Category:Isle of Westerhouse a blue link. Crouch, Swale (talk) 10:22, 27 October 2019 (UTC)

The Isle of Westerhouse as seen from the Gilli Burn, Hillswick

Crouch, Swale I've uploaded a photo that shows the Isle of Westerhouse, I'm not too sure how to set up the category on Commons (still learning the ropes on Wikipedia!), I'll leave that to you if that's alright?

I'm guessing that Westerhouse and Niddister were probably the names of townships in Hillswick Ness, although I can't offer any authority on this. There are ruins of houses on the east side around about the Bight of Niddister, and while I can't see much in the way of ruins on the west side, there is definitely artificial drainage there, and besides it is called "Westerhouse." I believe they were cleared around about the 1860s as part of the Highland Clearances, and I think the folk from these houses were forced to move to Valladale on the other side of Ura Firth. There's quite an interesting account about this here if you're interested. I'm certain that the mainland Noss has nothing to do with the "Isle of Noss" - which I think is a pretty good indicator that this name is a mistake on the OS maps. Thanks for this research to prove my hypothesis! Griceylipper (talk) 12:10, 27 October 2019 (UTC)

Thanks, I've created the category, to create a category here (and on Wikipedia) you click on the red category and add the parent category (in this case Category:Uninhabited islands of the Shetland Islands) and create it as normal.

That building that the 1st link shows is interesting as is the likes of Burnt Mount and the Sheep Pens in addition to the fact that there is also Loch of Niddister. It indeed wouldn't surprise me if there were indeed places called "Niddister" and "Westerhouse" that the islands were named after therefore the (Isle of) Noss being the odd one out. As far as Vementry is concerned could it be that unlike the other islands that I mentioned above that the place on the mainland is actually named after the island not the other way round? Given the fact that "Vementry" means "Vémunðr's island". Indeed as you pointed out both are simple "Vementry" on the OS (island, mainland place). It strikes me as quite odd that there would be 2 different types of places with the same name right next to each other without a prefix of suffix (perhaps the origins of which was named 1st might be something we could cover on WP). Then again both the main island of the Orkney and Shetland Islands are simply called "Mainland" by the OS when you would have thought something "Orkney Mainland" and "Shetland Mainland" would be used. Crouch, Swale (talk) 09:46, 29 October 2019 (UTC)

Crouch, Swale I believe you are probably right in the case of Vementry, as the -øy suffix in Old Norse definitely means "island" - Bressay, Whalsay, etc. So it would make little sense for the name to have been applied in the Mainland first, then to the island. It's a wonder it's not "Vementray"!

My guess on the Mainlands of Orkney and Shetland is that they probably were asking local folk for names, and when a Shetlander talks about "the Mainland" it's either the Shetland Mainland, or Mainland Britain - but not the Orkney one. Again it seems to me like it was all down to context. Add into this that I think the original name for the Orkney Mainland - Pomona - is still somewhat in use, so it was probably seen as unnecessary to append anything extra onto the names. Griceylipper (talk) 12:27, 29 October 2019 (UTC)

Indeed there don't appear to be any other islands that have "y" without "a" on the end. On a further note it seems that all (or most) of the islands in the Shetland group have "island" (or similar) included in the name (ignoring groups such as The Drongs) in some form, for example "-Holm" (such as Dore Holm), "-a" (such as Mousa), "-Stack" (such as Tonga Stack). But because Noss only became an island later it was thought that it should have that in the name, now that seems unlikely but its always a possibility. Having "Isle of Vementry" would be tautological but there are some tautological names such as "River Avon" where "Avon" means "river".

Yes that indeed might well be the case, Shetlanders would use "Mainland" to refer to the principal island (especially those on one of the other islands) but even to them "Mainland" could easily mean GB (or the Orkney one) so one would expect that some clarifier would have been added. Indeed about 7 months ago I asked someone who was Scottish why "Isle of" wasn't included in Rùm and it was suggested it could be because they would have asked local people what they called it. While you would expect that because of the drink people would likely add "Isle of" [1].

Are people likely to think that "Isle of Noss" is outright incorrect or just that its not ideal? I am aware that "Shetlands" (for "Shetland Islands") is highly disliked (as you have noted on Wikipedia) but given Hebrides is correctly called as such its not surprising people unfamiliar with these places use "Orkneys" and "Shetlands" and I even recently heard someone Scottish say "Crowlins" for the Crowlin Islands. Crouch, Swale (talk) 14:02, 31 October 2019 (UTC)

Crouch, Swale Apologies for the late reply - I've done some linguistics work here in Shetland (as a volunteer helping a researcher), and it has come up before that context makes up a huge part of the way things are described. The things Shetlanders talk about regarding each place make it obvious which one you're talking about. For example - and I'll put these in English rather than Shetland Dialect for the sake of the example - "I went down to the Mainland and I took the train-" stop there, you now know the Mainland is Mainland Britain, we don't have trains up here. Likewise, "I got some errands while I was on Mainland-" you wouldn't get your groceries using two 12-hour boat journeys, that must be the Shetland Mainland that's being talked about. Those might seem contrived, but the sorts of things people do in each place, or the ways they get there would almost always give enough context to make it obvious which one is being talked about. As for Rùm, I think you'd have to be trying pretty hard to construct a sentence where you could genuinely mix up the place and the drink.

My intuition on "Isle of Noss" is the following: if you were to ask if "Isle of Noss" is a valid description of the place, locals would have little problem with that, as it is (now) indeed an "isle", however as the name of that place, they would deem that incorrect, rather than not ideal. Just as "Island of Great Britain" is a valid description, but it's not its name. Griceylipper (talk) 18:59, 2 November 2019 (UTC)

That's a good example, basically you're saying that indeed the (Shetland) mainland is indeed currently just "Mainland" (which according to the OS it is) but when there is a high chance of confusion a prefix of suffix is often added, see Capel St Mary and Capel St Andrew where the church dedication has been formerly added to distinguish even though locally some people call Capel St Mary as just "Capel" again if the context is established.

Basically you're saying that people would be OK with hearing it because they wouldn't think it was part of the name, in other words people might say "I'm going to the isle of Noss" (where the bold term only is part of the name) but "isle" isn't taken as part of the name, just what it is. A common point with titles when "the" is included in speech but isn't necessarily part of the name, for example you say "Ohio is in the United States" not "Ohio is in The United States" so maybe people thought "Isle of" was part of the name rather than just running text. Similarly although we do have The Beatles and The Drongs, we do not have The United Kingdom, The Isle of Wight or The Orkney Islands because "the" isn't part of the name but occasionally people incorrectly title with "The". Crouch, Swale (talk) 15:27, 4 November 2019 (UTC)

Crouch, Swale You've hit the nail on the head with both your points. Griceylipper (talk) 19:03, 4 November 2019 (UTC)

Thanks, I think we have 3 possibilities why "Isle of Noss" is used by the OS:

• (1) it was added because it was thought it was thought "Isle of" was part of the name rather than a (lower case) description.
• (2) it was added to distinguish from the other mainland Noss.
• (3) it was added because it became an island and like (every or nearly every) island in the Shetland group having "Island" in the name it to now needed that.

The 1st seems likely, the 2nd seems plausible but the 3rd seems unlikely. The usual way indeed to tell if "the" is part of a name (as per w:WP:THE) is simply if "The" is capitalized in running text but with "The Beatles" it seems this isn't always the case because when "The" is essentially dropped it becomes lower case and like w:Yesterday (Beatles song). Crouch, Swale (talk) 11:24, 6 November 2019 (UTC)

Crouch, Swale If I had to put money on it, I'd say #1 is by far the most likely. Griceylipper (talk) 11:51, 6 November 2019 (UTC)

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CptViraj (📧) 08:21, 31 January 2020 (UTC)

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JuTa 19:58, 2 February 2020 (UTC)