User talk:The Ogre

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Image Tagging Image:Portuguese People.PNG[edit]

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Image:Languages of Europe.svg‎[edit]

It doesn't work because it contains no vector data, and refers to an image on your local hard-drive. There's no point in uploading an SVG file unless it's predominantly vector in nature... AnonMoos 22:13, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

I'm not an admin, so there's not much I can do, but you could ensure its speedy deletion by adding a "badname" template... AnonMoos 14:49, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

Ethnographic Iberia 200 BCE.PNG[edit]

¡Gracias por el mapa, Ogre! Pero tengo dos preguntas criticas:

  • ¿Está corecto "proto-celtico" por los Lusitanos? Si veviban allí antes de la imigración celtica, pienso, que debe ser "pre-celtico".
  • La Aquitania antigua estaba bajo norte asta la Garuna (Garonne) y el nombre de la ciudad de Auch es derivado del pueblo antiguo Vasco de los Auscones. Pués pienso, que la aerea Aquitana tenía más extensión al norte, que has marcado.

Bon día de Ulamm 09:45, 28 February 2008 (UTC)


Image:French_people_-_mosaic.PNG[edit]

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abf /talk to me/ 14:09, 5 March 2008 (UTC)


Image:French_people_-_mosaic.PNG[edit]

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Rosss 00:21, 8 March 2008 (UTC)


French Empire[edit]

This map is horrible! Spain and Portugal never formed part of the French Empire. Image:Europe map Napoleon 1811.png is better. Spain was a satellite state (although only a small part of the country was leal to Joseph Bonaparte). In Portugal the french soldiers was expel shortly after to arrive. --Durero 18:15, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

By the way, I have seen that you collaborate in the Wikipedia in Portuguese and that you take part in several WikiProjects related to Spain. Do you speak Spanish or Portuguese? Because my English isn't very good, the communication would be easier. --Durero 18:28, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
Eu sou espanhol, assim que entendo mais ou menos o portugués. Leerlo no es difícil, pero escribirlo es otra cosa. Creo que si nos comunicamos así nos entendemos mejor, ¿no crees? Una especie de portuñol (portunhol) :) Y en español me puedo expresar mejor que en inglés. El mapa es horrible, sobretodo porque Portugal aparece todo francés y eso es falso. Les distéis una buena paliza (surra) y les expulsasteis las tres veces que intentaron invadir vuestro país. Nosotros tardamos más. Usando palabras simples y parecidas en ambos idiomas es fácil entenderse. Até a próxima e obrigado. --Durero 20:12, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

Imperio español[edit]

El problema que veo es la concepción que tienes del término "Imperio español". La definición que da es:Imperio Español es clara:

Se denomina Imperio Español al conjunto de territorios conquistados, heredados y reclamados por España o por las dinastías reinantes en España [...]

Portugal nunca formó parte de España ni de Castilla. Por eso la definición habla de los territorios conquistados, heredados y reclamados [...] por las dinastías reinantes en España. El imperio era el conjunto de estados gobernados por un mismo rey, el hecho de que ese rey lo fuera principalmente de Castilla (España) es lo que da nombre al imperio: "español". Las leyendas de las imágenes lo dejan también muy claro:

Portugal tenía la misma autonomía (o incluso más) que el resto de estados que formaban parte del imperio: Aragón, Cataluña, Valencia, Navarra, los Países Bajos, Nápoles, Sicilia... Pero tenía la característica especial de que cuando pasó a manos de los Austrias (Habsburgo) el país incluía en el "lote" su propio imperio. Precisamente por ello, se dejó al gobierno portugués administrar sus colonias de forma separada al resto. Eso tampoco es extraño pues pasaba lo mismo con las colonias "españolas". Se las consideraba propiedad de Castilla y, por ello, Aragón no se metía en su gobierno. Así, las colonias portuguesas se las consideraba propiedad de Portugal y ni Castilla ni ningún otro reino interfería. Pero esto tampoco quiere decir que el imperio portugués formara un "todo" indivisible, pues te recuerdo que Ceuta permaneció fiel a su rey. Y si eliminas el imperio portugués de la imagen, ¿qué haces con esta ciudad? Era portuguesa, pero también española. Espero que hayas comprendido que los mapas no significan que Portugal fuera una provincia de España o algo así y que su imperio se le adjudique también a España. Espero que no te haya costado mucho entender mi español. Un saludo. --Durero 18:32, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

Yo estoy completamente de acuerdo con The Ogre. El imperio portugués nunca era una parte del imperio español, ni Brasil ni India ni otra parte. Si el nombre de la imagen fuera "Imperios ibéricos", no "Imperio español", sería correcto. Si hay varias pequeñas partes, como Ceuta, podemos incluirlo, pero la inclusión de Portugal como una parte del imperio español es totalmente incorrecto según esencialmente todos los historiadores notables. Patstuart (talk) 18:39, 18 April 2008 (UTC)
BTW, an already good map of the w:Iberian Union (which appears to be no more of a union than the European Union, and had Portugal as at least an equal, not subservient) is here: Image:Iberian Union Empires.png. Patstuart (talk) 19:04, 18 April 2008 (UTC)


I have been reading the discussion about the Spanish Empire and I would like to show my point of view. I will do it in Spanish language especially for facility, but if it is necessary I it will translate to the English language.

Veo que se han presentado argumentos bastante válidos por ambas concepciones, sin embargo hay una disparidad debida a distintos enfoques, que quisiera mostrar:

Un problema radica en utilizar términos con rigidez. Se emplean los términos de España y Portugal como actualmente, es decir, como dos estados, dos naciones diferentes, de modo que por un lado están los españoles y por otro los portugueses. Trasladamos estos conceptos a épocas anteriores y nos da el mismo resultado en el siglo XVII que en el XXI, España por un lado y Portugal por otro. Sin embargo, debemos considerar que dicha concepción tomada diacrónicamente es cómoda, es de fácil comprensión, tampoco es errónea, ya que Portugal formó su nación por oposición a Castilla, y España formó la suya a partir del imperialismo castellano y su oposición a sus enemigos europeos; pero no es suficiente, hay que considerar la realidad sincrónica de los siglos XVI y XVII. La monarquía hispánica de los Habsburgo no era una nación sensu stricto, tampoco era un país, pero la política que llevó a cabo constituyó la nación española frente a Europa; así la monarquía hispánica era un bloque político-territorial vinculado dinásticamente.

La monarquía hispánica estaba formada por varios territorios, varios reinos distintos: el reino de Castilla (con los territorios americanos excepto Brasil), el reino de Aragón (con los territorios italianos), el reino de Portugal (con Brasil, India ...) y el Círculo de Borgoña.

La gestión, el gobierno y las leyes de estos territorios eran independientes en unos reinos respecto de otros, esto lo ha demostrado ampliamente The Ogre, pero es incompleto, hay que añadir que la dirección política de la monarquía se decidía desde Madrid, y era la misma para todos (los enemigos de Castilla, eran enemigos de Portugal, de Aragón ...), para ello el Rey contaba con una sistema polisinodial de Consejos. Los Consejos territoriales eran el Consejo de Castilla (reorganizado en 1480), el Consejo de Aragón (configurado en 1494), el Consejo de Italia (separado del del Aragón en 1559, para Sicilia, Nápoles y Milán), el Consejo de Indias (para la América castellana, creado en 1524), el de Portugal (1582) y el de Flandes (1588).

De esta manera estos territorios-reinos eran aparentemente independientes, y no han de ser considerados ni como provincias ni como reinos incorporados como es el caso del reino de Navarra. Aunque legalmente el reino de Aragón, Portugal y Castilla estaban en igualdad, en la realidad el Rey y su Corte residía en Castilla y la política castellana marcaba y afectaba en los demás reinos, de modo que había una desigualdad en favor de Castilla, y esto es tan obvio, que si los portugueses no se habrían sublevado varias veces si la política castellana le hubiera sido beneficiosa.

Centrándonos en el término "imperio español". Es imperio por la importancia del territorio, y el carácter español lo fue adquiriendo a lo largo de los siglos, ya que inicialmente era castellano, y pasó a ser español, esto marca una diferencia con Portugal ya que el imperio portugués lo fue de principio a final. Como he dicho antes, el término español, es cómodo, es útil, pues traslada una realidad actual a épocas pasadas, pero analizar el periodo 1580-1640, basándose en una dualidad Portugal versus España es tendencioso, hay que basarse en la política de los Habsburgo y esa política surgía de Castilla (y así es española), y Portugal no estaba dominado ni subyugado ni secuestrado por España, sino que estaba añadida al bloque político territorial de los Habsburgo: cuando los neerlandeses toman Bahía (1624) y Pernambuco (1629) no lo hacen contra el independiente imperio portugués sino contra la monarquía de los Habsburgo.

Cuando el mapa es sincrónico de una época no hay problema en resaltar y explicar los distintos territorios, pero cuando es diacrónico y hay que reflejar el alcance de los movimientos de los territorios vinculados a España en 480 años, tenemos que utilizar distintos colores según la época. Nótese que indico territorios vinculados a España y no me refiero pertenecientes a España, este matiz es importante. Aunque tomemos España en sentido actual, hemos de tener en cuenta que la monarquía de los Habsburgo era esencialmente castellana, y de ahí de que haya que mostrar que a lo largo de historia española hubo un vínculo político-territorial con Portugal, territorio que no llegó a integrarse en una nación española debido a la Restauraçao de 1640. El mapa diacrónico del imperio español no va en contra de Portugal ni pretende mostrar apropiación de territorios a España, lo que se refleja de esta manera es la amplitud del bloque político-territorial de la monarquía hispánica (1479-1707) en la que en un determinado momento se adhirió Portugal, y esto se refleja con otro color, de igual manera se hace con otros territorios no españoles sensu stricto como Flandes, Milán, Nápoles..., que también formaron parte de la monarquía de los Habsburgo. De igual modo el Sáhara occidental debe estar en otro color porque pertence a otro momento histórico.

Vuelvo a recordar que aunque la gestión de los territorios (Castilla, Portugal, Aragón, Flandes...) se hacía según sus propias leyes, el rumbo político de la monarquía se gestaba en la Corte, en Madrid, y en este sentido la monarquía hispánica es española, no es hispano-portuguesa, ya que no había dualidad, y como no fue imperio hispano-portugués, no es correcto añadir al imperio portugués los territorios castellanos, aragoneses o de Flandes, ya que las decisiones de Lisboa no marcaban la política de Madrid.

Creo haber explicado los matices para comprender que durante 60 años, los territorios portugueses pasaron a formar parte del gran bloque de "el imperio en el que nunca se ponía el sol", y que quede reflejado en un mapa con una explicación y un color distinto. El quid radica en analizar la época (1580-1640) según la concepción nacionalista de Portugal versus España, por la sencilla razón que España no era un estado, sin embargo, esa dualidad es posible en época posterior. Un afectuoso saludo Trasamundo 15:23, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

Image:Portuguese Lamprey rice.jpg[edit]

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87.196.147.162 21:15, 11 August 2008 (UTC)


Please give a valid reason for deletion request. The Ogre (talk) 13:07, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

Desilusión[edit]

¡Qué poca vergüenza The Ogre! Y yo que creía que eras un buen usuario... Imponiendo tu visión partidista de la historia (como se puede ver aquí) como un vulgar vándalo. Al no poder defender tu posición por medio del diálogo, pasas a la acción. Y para colmo, te haces la víctima como si fuera una conspiración del "nacionalismo español", ese que está acechando, esperando el momento para invadir Portugal... Por favor... Qué desilusión... --Durero (talk) 20:22, 16 August 2008 (UTC)


Image:Flag of the CPLP.PNG[edit]

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-Lokal_Profil 01:05, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

Mapas[edit]

Hola Ogre, efectivamente veo que los mapas no son muy precisos, pero la razón para borrar el primero es que estaba siendo usado en guerras de ediciones. En principio, la inexactitud de una imagen no es razón válida para un borrado, pero en todo caso, te invito a que abras una votación de borrado de dichos mapas. Así la comunidad podrá opinar. Saludos --Ecemaml talk to me/habla conmigo 21:48, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

Santos.gif[edit]

Tenías razón. Borrada. Un saludo --Ecemaml talk to me/habla conmigo 20:48, 3 September 2008 (UTC)

Respuesta de la propuesta[edit]

¡Hola The Ogre!, ya te he respondido a tu propuesta espero haberla entendido bien. Afortunadamente el portugués no es un idioma que cueste horrores entenderlo; si fuera el chino, ya diría otra cosa.

Por otro lado, no me he planteado lo del login unificado, sencillamente porque dedico poco tiempo a estos asuntos de la wikipedia, de todas maneras gracias por el aviso.

Recibe un cordial saludo Trasamundo (talk) 01:14, 10 September 2008 (UTC)


Image:Spanish_people_-_mosaic.PNG[edit]

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In all cases, please do not take the deletion request personally. It is never intended as such. Thank you!


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Martin H. (talk) 08:36, 12 November 2008 (UTC)


Image:French_people_-_mosaic.PNG[edit]

Image deletion warning Image:French_people_-_mosaic.PNG has been listed at Commons:Deletion requests so that the community can discuss whether it should be kept or not. We would appreciate it if you could go to voice your opinion about this at its entry.

If you created this image, please note that the fact that it has been proposed for deletion does not necessarily mean that we do not value your kind contribution. It simply means that one person believes that there is some specific problem with it, such as a copyright issue.
In all cases, please do not take the deletion request personally. It is never intended as such. Thank you!


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Martin H. (talk) 21:43, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

File:MariaPiaBragança.jpg[edit]

Hello, I do not quite understand what is the problem with this file... It clearly says that it was the work by the uploader (M.de Sousa) which released it into public domain. What is wrong with that? Thanks, --Pperneta (talk) 01:04, 28 March 2009 (UTC)

Not a very trustful user, see wikipedia:en:Category:Suspected Wikipedia sockpuppets of M.deSousa. Someone who vandalizes Wikipedia is propably not the photographer of an photo taken in the 50s. --Martin H. (talk) 02:38, 28 March 2009 (UTC)
Eheheh, good point. I believe there are older pictures with an expired copyright, if this one is deleted I'll upload one of those to replace it. --Pperneta (talk) 13:50, 28 March 2009 (UTC)
Ogre, can you somehow save the Maria Pia file? How did you get the licence to the Poidimani photo?--Pperneta (talk) 19:08, 1 April 2009 (UTC)
Hello Ogre, I've been told that this image is in public domain, I'm trying to save it with a proper licence. Best always, --Pperneta (talk) 19:57, 1 April 2009 (UTC)


File:Sephardi_Jews_-_mosaic.PNG[edit]

Commons-emblem-issue.svg File:Sephardi_Jews_-_mosaic.PNG has been listed at Commons:Deletion requests so that the community can discuss whether it should be kept or not. We would appreciate it if you could go to voice your opinion about this at its entry.

If you created this file, please note that the fact that it has been proposed for deletion does not necessarily mean that we do not value your kind contribution. It simply means that one person believes that there is some specific problem with it, such as a copyright issue.
Please remember to respond to and – if appropriate – contradict the arguments supporting deletion. Arguments which focus on the nominator will not affect the result of the nomination. Thank you!


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Denniss (talk) 19:35, 16 December 2009 (UTC)

Greater Latin America (orthographic projection)[edit]

Hello The Ogre, as it's written in the file description, this is not just a political map of Latin America including Quebec, this is an orthographic projection of Greater Latin America, which is basically just a linguistic map with over the romance languages speaking parts of the Americas. This is not a political map. Also, The tag Fact disputed is used to mark disputed image descriptions if you believe that the content of the image does not match its description. If you continue to add this tag again, your action might be considered reiterated vandalism, and the page may be blocked for protection or you'll be blocked. --Keepscases (talk) 16:06, 5 January 2010 (UTC)

French colonial Empire[edit]

Okay, Saturday is usually my best day for such things as deletion requests and I not only went and did the ones you recommended to me but did a search on the Commons and got rid of a few more, (nominations only). Who are we onto next? The British? I think there is actually a really bad backlog of junk regarding Bitish Empire maps as was seen with rhew Spanish Empire situation. There had not appeared to be nearly as many French ones; I guess their just not as popular! Only kidding! Anyway, who are we onto next, British or someone else? Your the boss! Maps & Lucy (talk) 21:50, 27 February 2010 (UTC)

Hi, How goes it? Anyway, I just found one final nonsense French Empire map and deleted it called File:French colonial Empire.PNG and thought you would be interested. Maps & Lucy (talk) 17:39, 12 March 2010 (UTC)

DR comments[edit]

Hi! Do you think it was really necessary to post the same (large) comment on each one of those map deletion requests? In the future, please use links instead of repeating the same thing over and over again. It would make it a lot easier on us admins that try to keep the request page somewhat tidy (it's already insanely long; one reason why requests take so long). Thanks! P.S. I restored File:Spanish Empire.png & File:Imperio español.png as I don't think they were meant to be deleted, however I'm letting you know in case you did want them deleted and wish to nominate them. Rocket000 (talk) 06:03, 6 March 2010 (UTC)

Yes, usually it's better to create a single deletion request for related images as was done with Commons:Deletion requests/Nonsense Spanish Empire maps. If the reason for deleting them is the same, then one request makes more sense since it centralizes discussion and makes it easier to process. But either way is acceptable. Rocket000 (talk) 20:28, 6 March 2010 (UTC)

British Empire map deletion[edit]

Okay, I am beginning the deletion nomination work but am already experiencing a serious problem; something we have not come accross before: many of these nonsense maps of the British Empire are actually being used, but only by one or two pages on a few different Wikis even though the image despcriptions for all of them are English or English and German. Please help me by going on these Wikis and replacing these maps to other ones which are accuarate so we can get rid of the innaccurate duplicates; or at least find people who can. Maps & Lucy (talk) 22:50, 1 March 2010 (UTC)

Here are two maps I was able to nominate for deletion: File:British Empire Anachronous 3.PNG and File:Countries in brit emp.PNG. Please post your agreement to them at your earlist convenience. The former is one of many duplicates only some of which have gotten deleted and this one is the only one of the remaining ones that is not being used; the ones that still exist are 4, 7, & 8, as well as a 4a which has a different colour sceem. Maps & Lucy (talk) 23:04, 1 March 2010 (UTC)

Here's another one: File:The British Empire1.png, it is an identical duplicate of the one everyone uses by The Red Hat of Pat Ferrick. As you know, I can't nominate them until they are not in use and right now all of these maps, some semi-duplicated ones, need to be free of linkage before we clear them out. Maps & Lucy (talk) 13:44, 6 March 2010 (UTC)

Here they are: Commons:Deletion requests/Nonsense British Empire maps Go ahead!
p.s. User:Blurpeace has been deleting our nominations and they are almost all gone now! All of the Spanish ones are no more! Maps & Lucy (talk) 16:07, 6 March 2010 (UTC)

More French nonsense[edit]

Hi Ogre, I just discovered something rather pathetic that you may be able to help me with in dfeleting. Some guy upl,oaded a bunch of French crowns and did so twice each time, once in png format and then again in gif format. I suggest we get rid of the gif versions and then they will still be there to use but no duplicates remaining in the end. Do what ever it is to make them not used by reverting the links to the PNG formats please! They are:

p.s. there is a note above for you in the French colonial Empire section from me! Maps & Lucy (talk) 17:51, 12 March 2010 (UTC)

Here is the deletion log: Commons:Deletion requests/Duplicated French crowns, go ahead! Maps & Lucy (talk) 21:07, 13 March 2010 (UTC)

Portugese Empire...[edit]

Well Ogre, we did the Spanish Empire, we did the French Empire and we even did the British Empire, (although that last one has not been finalized by the admins as of yet). Any way, its time to now do the next empire, the Portugese! I have made a deletion log but not put it on the deletion request page for the day yet or put the required templates on the images themselves because I need you to help by removing these images from pages on other wikis by following the instructions I left on the deletion log. Once you have done the ajustements on the other wikis I will post it on the deletion requests of the day, put the required templates on the image pages, and notify our wiki-friends!

The log is: Commons:Deletion requests/Nonsense Portuguese and Union maps following the title template I have been using for the previous group-nominations. Maps & Lucy (talk) 01:54, 19 March 2010 (UTC)


Portugal map[edit]

Hello The Ogre,

The Savage Islands were actually drawn on EU-Portugal with islands circled.svg, but not correctly circled — it is now fixed. If there is any other issue about this map, you can leave me a message explaining the issue, and I will update the map. Thanks. --Pethrus (talk) 22:45, 23 March 2010 (UTC)

A new project for us...[edit]

Hi! It's been a long time since we comunicated as I was away for a month and was also dealing with a few speedy deletions but now I have us a new project. I checked the other colonial empires and notice that other than the German empire there isn't anyhing that needs to be dealt with and the German Empire is a very difficult job that can be dealt with later. The job I have set out for us strays from our main area of work: the maps pertaining to 'forms of government' have been building far to much and we should narrow each down to one, and make sure that the ones we keep of all of them are the accurate, or at least most accurate, of them all. Here is the list of maps showing 'forms of government' on the Commons: All forms:

Parlemtary:

We should create a mass deletion request for these sets after you can determine which ones are the right ones to keep based on their accuracy. I hope you can help! Maps & Lucy (talk) 22:14, 19 May 2010 (UTC)

Hello again...[edit]

Hi Ogre, long time; anyway I found this and thought you might be interested. Maps & Lucy (talk) 23:27, 13 September 2010 (UTC) (p.s. take a look at the thing above).

Map(s) to delete[edit]

Hi, thank you for notifying me about this map which I totally agree should be deleted and will add it to a batch deletion request on the subject. However, this image is being useed on various projects and I hope you would be able to go to those pages and replace this image with one that is correct. Once you have done this I will add it to Commons:Deletion requests/Inaccurate colonial maps and notify you once I have finished adding to it. Maps & Lucy (talk) 19:57, 1 November 2010 (UTC)

FYI: „Nordic race“[edit]

Commons:Deletion requests/File:Nordic race in Europe.PNG. Best regards, --Polarlys (talk) 16:43, 16 January 2011 (UTC)

File:Español_España_dialectos.png[edit]

Commons-emblem-issue.svg File:Español_España_dialectos.png has been listed at Commons:Deletion requests so that the community can discuss whether it should be kept or not. We would appreciate it if you could go to voice your opinion about this at its entry.

If you created this file, please note that the fact that it has been proposed for deletion does not necessarily mean that we do not value your kind contribution. It simply means that one person believes that there is some specific problem with it, such as a copyright issue.
Please remember to respond to and – if appropriate – contradict the arguments supporting deletion. Arguments which focus on the nominator will not affect the result of the nomination. Thank you!


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:| TelCoNaSpVe :| 08:05, 31 March 2011 (UTC)

Iberian map[edit]

Some vandals have wrecked your map - I have tried to undo them but can't seem to - how do you do this in Commons ?Jembana (talk) 05:29, 25 April 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for fixing this :)Jembana (talk) 15:51, 25 April 2011 (UTC)

File:Portuguese_People.PNG[edit]

Commons-emblem-issue.svg File:Portuguese_People.PNG has been listed at Commons:Deletion requests so that the community can discuss whether it should be kept or not. We would appreciate it if you could go to voice your opinion about this at its entry.

If you created this file, please note that the fact that it has been proposed for deletion does not necessarily mean that we do not value your kind contribution. It simply means that one person believes that there is some specific problem with it, such as a copyright issue.
Please remember to respond to and – if appropriate – contradict the arguments supporting deletion. Arguments which focus on the nominator will not affect the result of the nomination. Thank you!


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LX (talk, contribs) 11:51, 17 July 2011 (UTC)

File_talk:Linguistic_map_Southwestern_Europe.gif[edit]

Buenas, estoy a punto de revertir esto, pero no entiendo el inglés. Que vos parece ? Mesage para Manuel de Sousa y The Ogre porque pienso que entendeis el castellano y participais a la conversasion Saludos y perdonar por la molestia --Elvire (talk) 14:42, 2 November 2011 (UTC)

File:Sephardi Jews - mosaic.PNG[edit]

Commons-emblem-issue.svg File:Sephardi Jews - mosaic.PNG has been listed at Commons:Deletion requests so that the community can discuss whether it should be kept or not. We would appreciate it if you could go to voice your opinion about this at its entry.

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Multichill (talk) 21:47, 17 May 2012 (UTC)

File tagging File:Sephardi Jews - mosaic.PNG[edit]

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Dzlinker (talk) 12:27, 1 July 2012 (UTC)

File:Español España dialectos.png[edit]

Commons-emblem-issue.svg File:Español España dialectos.png has been listed at Commons:Deletion requests so that the community can discuss whether it should be kept or not. We would appreciate it if you could go to voice your opinion about this at its entry.

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Aospina (talk) 11:09, 3 August 2012 (UTC)